You know it is about time somethings got cleared up...

Double rifles don't need to be SxS...the difference in speed of realoading is a myth...

The bbl of a SxS need to move about 4 inches to access the chambers and O/U about 7 1/4 inches. If you think you can measure the difference in time for the hand to move an additional 3/14 inches down and then up...you need to drink less Scotch

and that whole wide sight plane...if you ain't focused on the front sight instead of the bbls you might as well drink Scotch while you are shooting...

and another thing that whole single malt thing is marketing hype...there are 3 plus dozen single malts and they all taste different...the marketing folks created a myth and people bought it just like saying only pure cabernet's are the best when we all know that best wines are actually meritages...

By the way the best Scotch is Johnnie Walker Blue...a blend

Sorry Mike, you been drinking too much cheap scotch or not mixing it with your Lonestar beer, that can cause assumptions, a dreded malady that attacks the gun nuts brain....

A SS will load faster and most importantly the second barrel is much easier to get a round in..that was proven over the last 100 or so years, and some California wino ain't gonna change it!!

Blasphemous! All of it! No, I actually agree about the o/u vs sxs double argument, but I still prefer my H&H RG 475 #2 Jeffery sxs over my brother's o/u 470. It just has a better feel to me. We are both deadly shots with our respective weapons, but I don't see any real difference other than nostalgia. My rifle is regulated at 75yds and I know the crossover characteristics well enough (muscle memory) to be able to make both touch from 10yds to 150 nearly every time.
As for the Scotches, some prefer a highland, some an Islay. Some like peat smoke, some don't want it in the finish. Some like Port or Sherry wine flavors gemixt, some like the passion of bourbon barrel flavoring to grace the pallette. Blends are boring. They are the same every time. You probably think McDonalds coffee is pretty good, too. The best thing about single malts are the varieties. Anyone so interested could eventually find a single malt to exactly match their tastes. Depending on which mood I'm in, which cigar I happen to be smoking, or even what the weather outside is doing (Speysides are great on rainy days with a fine Maduro, for example). I stopped drinking to get drunk years ago. I actually enjoy the liquor for the craftsmanship of its malting and casking now. I live for the finish and the expressiveness of the malter's skill when it "flashes" on the tounge in that first sip. For all of my passion of single malts, I rarely have more than a drink or two a week, unless I am with freinds for a special occasion such as a hunt. When we look back at our lives, I think every moment should be precious. I'd much rather remember sharing a $350 bottle of single malt with a few close freinds after a good hunt than remember a bottle of tequilla at a drunken frat party. Call me nuts, but life is how you live it.
Rob

"there are 3 plus dozen single malts and they all taste different.."

Ah, Mike, but that's the magic of the stuff....

Ray,

On a a somewhat serious note...I will endeavor to run empirical tests to determine actual difference in getting off 3 shots...

Ray,

And with respect to California wino...that is Northern California wino to you...where everyone knows the worlds best wine comes from and the only wine worth drinking is red wine.

I resemble that remark and I am Italian so by birth right we are red wine winos

HH mag,

McDonalds coffee that is blasphemous...Peet's and only Peet's I bring a 1 1/2 lbs and stainless steel press pot on my safari

Now for you you nostaglists...why is the 8x57 not very popular in Africa...I would actually think is would be more popular than 30-06 given its European heritage and it is probably slight more effective inside 200 yds

Italian ? Then you ought to be drinking J&B ,it's the only scotch made by an italian [Justerini] ! Chivas Regal was a great marketing thing . A 12 year old but most people compared it to 8 year olds. Try them all and pick the one you like best.

just give me the over/under...keep the scotch....better yet send it to Ray Atkinson.....anyone that has to dilute his scotch with beer needs help. At the least he could learn about Lienenkugels!!!!! Criminy!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:


Double rifles don't need to be SxS...the difference in speed of realoading is a myth...

Yeah, and you can reload a Ruger No. 1 as fast as you can work a bolt.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:

...
McDonalds coffee that is blasphemous...Peet's and only Peet's I bring a 1 1/2 lbs and stainless steel press pot on my safari
...

Peet's coffee, a wee bit of the Macallan, and a Padron Aniversario and I'm all set...

Dan,

No you cannot reload a Ruger number1 as fast as bolt.

Make my rifles SxS and my single malt either 25 year Highland Park or 30 year Glenfiddich!

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:

and another thing that whole single malt thing is marketing hype...

By the way the best Scotch is Johnnie Walker Blue...a blend

I don't own and have never fired a double rifle, so I can't argue your points there, BUT blended is better than single malt??? Come on now, that's just wrong. It is also the source of an ongoing ten year debate my father and I are having. He is firmly in the blended camp and I am definately a single malt guy. The best thing about this debate is there is only one way to settle it: drink more scotch.

As much as I would love to own a fine double rifle, I think I'll stick to great bolt guns and 18 year old Macallan.

Glenrothes and I know I can get 4 shots from a CZ 550 in 375 faster than you shoot 4 out of any double.

I like over and under big guns but they are hard to find.

Wouldn't mind having one in 470 if the price was right.

Geez, Mike, if you are going to drink blended whisky at least try The Famous Grouse Brand.

The majority of the whisky from the GlennTurret distillery in beautiful Crieff Scotland goes into the making of the largest selling blended Scotch Whisky in Scotland, The Famous Grouse Brand.

Go into any pub in Scotland and order a "pint and a Low Flyer". You'll get a pint of the local brew and a wee dram of "The Famous Grouse Brand"

Mike, Knockandu when you don't want it too earthy, Talisker when want to feel that peat bog in your mouth. Blended Scotch is like blended wine. When the blenders know what they are doing it can taste OK, but it rarely tastes as good as the best Single Malt. Same with wine and if you ever find yourself stuck in France I will prove it. Your idea of California wine supremacy may also take a beating.

Wine, I have no taste for. Though I understand there are a few people that like it.

Sigh single malt the best thing about the hunt besides the hunting is a get to share good malt with my friends.

blue label is pretty good, but i like dalwhinnie, glenlivet and glenrothes the best. as long as its not the 12 year old glenfiddich and its single malt, i'll happily drink it.

as for doubles i'll save up for one, eventually

It all depends on what you like, and yes the variety of Single Malts is what drives the interest. Price really has little to do with it. For instance, Balvenie Founder's Reserve I much prefer to their 15 year single barrel even though it is much cheaper. It's not better, I just prefer it. One of my favorites is the Glen Garioch 10 year single malt that sells for less than $20 here. To my pallette, it is much better than Macallan 18 yr. The list goes on.

And Rusty's right. If it weren't for GLen Garioch, I would say that the Grouse is the best buy out there.

Scotch is like bourbon, there isn't an absolute scale of price and quality. I live in Kentucky, and really appreciate how good Blanton's is, even at its price. However, I ignored the advice of a lot of older guys until I actually tried Yellowstone at about $8 a bottle.

You guys are too sophistocated for me, I prefer bolt actions (although wouldn't mind a double) and beer! Don't even have a preference for the beer, although there is a little brewery about 15 minutes from my house that I have a soft spot for... I'm glad to get such an education, though, I should be able for the "real" world after I read these forums for a little longer.

Mike D
I consider you my buddy... However you must
have drank some Scotch with LSD in It.
A big bore double should ALWAYS be a SxS.
And the BEST Scotch is an ISLAY Single Malt.
Try some Laphroaig 10 year old Original Cask Strength as your every day Scotch.

For special occasions try some 16 year old Lagavulin Single Malt Scotch Wisky.

If the above does not seem the best to you, go buy a hunting rifle at Wall Mart, and a 6 pack of beer.

JustinL01:

You have a PM.

As NE 450 puts it, I hunt with "bolt action trash", so I don't really understand the nuances of doubles, but I have some real expert friends who do know them inside and out, and who have hunted with them for many years. To a man, every one of them states that loading speed is superior with the side-by-side double.

I'll also offer the observation that I've never seen or known of an African PH who's been an O/U double-rifle man, although it's likely that there have been a few, and possibly still are.

Most O/U double rifles are in the hands of Europeans who use them to hunt non-dangerous game for the most part, although many Germans, Italians, and Austrians have used them against grizzlies in the Yukon, Alaska, and B.C. over the years....

AD

On the Discovery Channel this weekend "Modern Marvels" had an hour long show on distilleries. It had four 15 minute segments on how each of the big four are made, Bourbon, Scotch, Vodka and Tequila. The segment on scotch was all on how single malts were made with the differences in the malting and the actual distilling processes in Scotland. Very interesting.

If memory is correct, the O/U came out in 1925, Browning idea wasn't it, for the shotgun initially (B25)? Since the heyday of double guns was pretty much over, to be revived later, the mystique was always with the S/S. In Europe there are a lot of O/U rifles in calibers appropriate for driven hunts but people want a DGR double gun that looks like the traditional English double.

I'll take Jack Daniels over anything else any day of the week...

Anybody ever run any timed tests...of getting the third shot off on an O/U vs a SxS...

I hear lots of people say its faster...I looked at the mechanics of it the other day and it looks like 10ths of seconds or even hundreths of a seonds to me...

I'll see if I can run some tests with shotguns...and stop watches...

Who's Peet?

Shotguns? We don't need no stink'n shotguns!

Questions? Please consult this thread.
Double rifle use

577 has it right! Sour mash is an American drink for true blue Americans. Scotch is for sissys and foreigners.





465H&H

I have a suggestion for all you scotch drinking dummies out there....buy a bottle of good Kentucky bourbon or Tennessee whisky, take a sip, then stick your face in a pile of burning leaves and breath.

It will produce the same nauseating result, but save you around $20 a bottle!

Damn shame to ruin good American whisky that way though.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark in SC:
I have a suggestion for all you scotch drinking dummies out there....buy a bottle of good Kentucky bourbon or Tennessee whisky, take a sip, then stick you face in a pile of burning leaves and breath.

It will produce the same nauseating result, but save you around $20 a bottle!

Damn shame to ruin good American whisky that way though.

I'll second that -- bourbon over scotch any day.

I think you're all full of crap in most cases!

You can pour the Scotch, Burbon, Lone Star beer, and wine down the long drop, to run the cock roaches out! Mc Donald's coffee, is only one thing "HOT"! The O/U double rifle is a deer rifle, and the S/S is a big game rifle!


For the double rifle meant for DG give me a S/S with Non-automatic safety, a bore size at .400 or over, For coffee give me Community, or Mellow Joy from Louisanna, and for something cold give me some good old Texas ICE TEA!

There is a definite difference betweem a S/S, and an O/U, in how far they must be opened to re-load them. There has never been a S/S double rifle built that require opening to 4" to reload, even when chambered for the 600 Nitro, even on an O/U,chambered for 9.3X74R, it only requires opening less than two inches to reach the bottom chamber, and on my S/S double rifle chambered for the same cartridge, it require less the 3/4"! I just measured them! Addtionally, as the size of the cartridge goes up, the gap widen between the O/U, and the S/S!
This is why you don't see large NE rounds in O/U doubles that often. About the largest thing you see in an O/U is a 458 Win Mag, and damn few of those! From a .500 case Rim size, 500/450, 470, 476, and 500 the rifle with O/U barrels must be opened very wide to get to the bottom chamber, but my 470NE S/S still only opens around 7/8" and both chambers are at the same level. The top of the standing breach acts as platform to hold both cartridges steady while both are slid into the chambers similtaineously, and the extractors are UNDER the cartridges where they belong. On an O/U the chambers are very difficult to load at the same time, because there is no support between the fingers and the chambers, and the extractors are on opposite sides of the cartridges, and one just under the cartridge, and the other above the cartridge. The O/U is easier to load one chamber at a time, and the larger, and heavier the cartridges get the slower they are to load in an O/U.

These are the reasons the manufacturers chamber their O/Us with smaller cartridges, and why you don't see them in Dangerous game fields. Since they cost less to buy, if they were better, or even as good, there would be litterly thousands of them in Africa,in the hands of both Clients, and PHs. It is simply silly to say there is no difference beyween the two types for the same purpose! Just like the PF, and CRF, anyone may argue all they want, but there is a macanical difference between them. The S/S is better suited to DG hunting, and the CRF is better suited to DG hunting. That is not to say they both cannot be used for the same purpose, but in both cases one is a better choices than the other, and neither of the two are equal choices!

MacD37,

The measurement I was making was not of the chamber area but the movement of the bbls downward just in front of the forend...

That is the area that the hand moves...

I suspect if you measure the downwar distance traveled by the bbls to open the action enough to insert a shel you will find it to be about 3.5 inches to 4 inches

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
MacD37,

The measurement I was making was not of the chamber area but the movement of the bbls downward just in front of the forend...

That is the area that the hand moves...

I suspect if you measure the downwar distance traveled by the bbls to open the action enough to insert a shel you will find it to be about 3.5 inches to 4 inches

Mike the only thing that is important is how wide the action has to open, and the obsitcles in the way you load the chambers! I guess you could measure how far the muzzles drop is you wanted, but the opening in the chamber area where the cartridges drop into the chambers will remain the same for each type!

I have both types of double rifles, and have owned many more of each over the years. In my experience, the O/U is not as well suited, as a S/S for Dangerous game stopping, in any chambering ! They are difinitely slower, and more clumsey to load quickly than a S/S!

If you run a speed loading test it shoulsn't be a three shot test. It should be a 20 shot test, in strings of four shots, with two re-loads, with the rifle ending up loaded, and ready for the 5th, and 6th shot! Let the rifle cool, and do the next one. This will give you a better idea of the real times involved. To make it even more realistic, have one target on one side of a bush, and fire the first two on that target, and move to the onter side of the bush while reloading, to fire the next two on the other target, with all four shots in the kill zone on each target, with time stopping when the final re-load is cmpleted and the rifle shouldered. Any shot that misses the kill zone reduces the score! This give a more pressure type of sittuation more like the real thing.

Just shooting the rifle, and reloading it doesn't prove anything! The shots must be killing shots, or you would have pleanty of time to to lie in a box, if it were a real stopping sittuation.

I have not had the opportunity to fire a double, but have had the chance to shoulder one and it just had a great feel to it.

Single malts: they are all different, and I'll have a different one depending on my mood. Glenmorangie 15, Macallan 18, Balwinnie, or the one I seem to go to most, LAgavulin 15.

Got a bottle of GlenFiddich 18yo Ancient reserve today from one of my clients who must have been reading these two posts. His thought on the subject, "Single malts are like wimmin, shouldn't be legal 'til they're 18 nohow." Dammit, man, you just can't argue with that logic! Cheers, mates!

I agree on the Glenfiddich.

I own no double rifles but have three double shotguns two o/u one s/s Tomato and tomahto.

If your tastes turn to Bourbon, then please try one of the Finest, most underated bourbons on the market Maker's Mark Bourbon!

If life is too short to hunt with an ugly rifle, then it sure as Hell is too short to drink bad whisky!

To learn more about single malts please visit
Scotchwhisky.net
Just to name a few of my favorites!

There are such a great and wonderous variety of whiskies to choose from
From the throw down single malt Glenlivet that been there doing a great job in most any bar you walk into. A standard!
Then there are the likes of Glenmorangie finsished in Sherry or Port barrels to round off and give a smoother taste to some great whisky.

Knockando Knock-an-doo means little black hillock in gaelic. A wonderful bottling that has an almost sweet finish.

Of course the hearty earthy tasts of whiskies such a Laphroaig, the Oaky Smokey flavor of the 17 year old Glengoyne and islay Malts such as Bunnahabhain give the whisky drinker an almost infinite selection of tastes to shoose from.

Scotch in Gaelic means "Breath of life". Legend has it that if you drink the proper amount each day, you will live forever.

I'm still searching. . .

I've never hunted dangerous game with a double, but I have hunted elk with a 333 Jeffries double that a friend of mine used to own. Dandy little gun.

I'd rather have a SxS with 2 triggers that an O/U with 1 trigger in any situation that I can think of.

Rusty,

Makers Mark is a fine bourbon, I think Knob Creek is better. Same distillery I think but smaller batch.
Scotches are across the board... and are definitely a matter of taste. I have four brothers who all love scotch. When they drop by for something to drink it can get expensive. For that reason I keep a good supply of Famous Grouse on hand. Yes, it's a blend, but a blend of MacCallan and Highland Park single malts. I also enjoy reading a good W.E.B. Griffin novel while sipping Famous Grouse... that just seems like a natural thing to do. I have also had scotch that tastes as though you made a Russian wrestler stumble across 3 miles of peat bog and then squeezed the juice out of his jockstrap into your glass.