I was just watching one of Mark Sullivans early videos and was admiring the quality of the lions there. I'm sure a lot has changed in the last 15 years but is the Moyowosi still producing big maned Lions? Obviously the genitics are there. What outfitter(s) have concessions there?

JWR

Moyowosi has always been famous for really big and well maned lions. Moyowosi is in three sections(I think). The middle and southern sections are held by Tanzania Game Tracker Safaris:

http://tgts.com/LAI/

They also hold several concessions bordering the west side of these southern moyowosi concessions. They are one of the most expensive companies to hunt with in Tanzania and also do a wonderful job managing their lions for age and trophy quality. Check out their trophy gallery and lions turned down.

Game Frontiers of Tanzania has the northern Moyowosi concession:

http://www.gftsafaris.com/

If you search this and the african hunting report forums you will find that several members have hunted these concessions and a number of discussions about these concessions. BwanaMich seems to be very knowledgeable about them and he would be a good person to ask.

Brett

Take a look at this one from TGTS. I wonder if the son holding the rifle shot it or is just holding the rifle for dad. whoever it is he's a lucky guy with dream lion.

We hunted the Moyowosi last year, but did not see any shootable lions at all.

MY PH had photos of a really nice lion taken earlier in the year.

I find that hard to believe that that is a wild lion. If so, unbelieveale,

The Moyowosi has a lot of wide open spaces, which would help lions retain their manes.

I find that hard to believe that that is a wild lion. If so, unbelieveale


Lions like this from TGTS occouring only in well managed hunting Blocks. The opposite (quality and numbers) of Lions you can find in Kigosi.

Seloushunter

Seven - That is a great lion and a testimonial of the quality of TGTS area. However, I think that their success rate on lion hunts i.e. 10 to 15% is far to low. They should sell fewer more high priced lion hunts with more photo safari in their area.

quote:

I think that their success rate on lion hunts i.e. 10 to 15% is far to low.

Is that really what their success rates are? For the money they charge I would have thought they would be much higher. Can't see paying $80,000 6 to 10 times before getting a Lion.

I think I've heard estimates of thier success rates at around that mark from third party sources. It should improve as they continue their management plan. If you look at the lions they shoot there are no inbetweens. They are all stunners and they are all old. I believe I rememeber Bwanamich saying they fire PHs that shoot young lions, so they are damn sure when they do. Not only do they shoot old stunners, but they refuse to take even 6year old+ stunners if they have cubs under 12 months old. They have taken lion management to a knew level. Here is an article about lion management from their website:

http://tgts.com/LAI-hunting/files/lionarticle.pdf

I aplaud their efforts. Those are wonderful lions, but you can be damn sure the clients paid for them! I'm quite sure they are paying more than $80,000. I agree that is to much money for a 15% success rate, so when I go for my lion I'll hunt with someone else in Tanzania or in Zambia.

Brett

quote:

The Moyowosi has a lot of wide open spaces, which would help lions retain their manes.

Interesting statement. There seems to be a common theory that lions in thick thorny areas have lesser or no manes. It is stated as fact in much of the old hunting literature and especially concerning the Tsavo lions.

I happen to believe it is a myth. certainly there are areas with better genetics for thick manes but I do not believe it has to do with the habitat. If one of the functions of the mane is to protect the lion from blows, bites etc.. from other males, it would certainly repel thorns just as well. Moreover, if you took a lion with good, thick mane genes and put him into an area with thick thorny bush I do not see that lion loosing his mane.I guess no one really knows for sure.

I would believe genetics and age, possibly climate, but not the thickness of the "bush." Can someone shed more light on this as I hear this theory all of the time.

quote:

Originally posted by Grafton:

quote:

The Moyowosi has a lot of wide open spaces, which would help lions retain their manes.

Interesting statement. There seems to be a common theory that lions in thick thorny areas have lesser or no manes. It is stated as fact in much of the old hunting literature and especially concerning the Tsavo lions.

I happen to believe it is a myth. certainly there are areas with better genetics for thick manes but I do not believe it has to do with the habitat. If one of the functions of the mane is to protect the lion from blows, bites etc.. from other males, it would certainly repel thorns just as well. Moreover, if you took a lion with good, thick mane genes and put him into an area with thick thorny bush I do not see that lion loosing his mane.I guess no one really knows for sure.

I would believe genetics and age, possibly climate, but not the thickness of the "bush." Can someone shed more light on this as I hear this theory all of the time.

Please look up previous post from last year titled: LION MANE'S there is much more to read on this interesting topic. I addressed (your question) regarding climate effect on lion mane quality.

If that is in fact a wild tanz. lion it is by FAR the most dramatic mane I've ever seen, even in photos.

What is the temperature generally like in the Moyowasi and surrounding western blocks, say, compared to Selous, Tsavo, Niassa eastern areas?

Lion like the one pictured above can only be found when the company with the concession - and every PH who hunts there - will not permit their hunters to shoot any male of less than six years of age.

That lion is an old man, and TGTS are to be commended for being among the very first to espouse the six year rule, and for sticking to it over the years.

That rule is not an easy one to live with, but it's the right rule for lion.

Visit the TGTS website and you will see even more fully mature lion that will bug your eyes out. I know it's been linked above, but here it is again.

TGTS

You will also see a few photos of our host, Saeed, with some of his fine trophies from last year.

quote:

Originally posted by mboga biga bwana:
I find that hard to believe that that is a wild lion. If so, unbelieveale


Lions like this from TGTS occouring only in well managed hunting Blocks. The opposite (quality and numbers) of Lions you can find in Kigosi.

Seloushunter

There are no fenced hunting areas nor caged lions in Tanzania - I hope it remains that way !

Yes, even for Tanzania (a country that has long produced some of the finest maned lions) this is one hell of a lion!!!! Congrats to the Safari Company, PH, trackers, and lucky client!!

I have lion hunted at Moyowosi with TGT and while they are indeed an outstanding operation, there's little doubt that they very much oversell their lion hunts well beyond the number of lions they plan to take each year. In fact, they have created such a high level of acceptance on what lions can be shot that their PH's are very nervous about daring to take one. When they spot a lion that they think might qualify, they now must take a picture and the "go" or "no go" decision is typically made by someone in Texas, rather then the PH on the ground. There are a lot of PH's in Tanzania that cannot imagine working under such conditions. No doubt there are some wonderful lions occassionally taken there, but "the camp lion" is routinely baited, observed, and then passed by repeated hunters to the concession. Here's a picture of him:

quote:

Originally posted by Spring:
but "the camp lion" is routinely baited, observed, and then passed by repeated hunters to the concession.

Spring do you mean to say that they deliberately bait the same lion with different clients and then turn him down?

As I have mentioned above. Last year we did not see any lions at all, in any of the 3 concessions we hunted.

I am not really sure that they can bait the same lion with different clients. Lions like to roam.

A lion can be seen by different clients, but to actually PLAN to have the same one ready for different clients to see is going to be very difficult.

Personally I am not too sure about this lion business and TGT.

I have actually seen adverts with clients and lions that look younger than ones TGT claim they have turned down.

Also, I am not sure about the idea of taking a photo of a lion and sending it to Texas for approval.

One can see a lion once, and no matter how much you replinish the bait, you might never see him again.

Also, I think every PH worth his salts is not going to accept this.

And as a client, I think that any lion that can legally be shot, I have to have the option of doing so or turning it down.

Not some so called "manager" sitting in Texas who can approve or diapprove it from a photo.

We all enjoyed our hunt there last year, and look forward to hunting there again later this year.

TGT is the only company we hunted with that had several hunting concessions bordering each other, with a seperate camp in each.

They had a manager who over looked all these camps, and he did a fantastic job of making sure there was nothing the clients needed or wanted is missing.

Having said that, I think we have been spoiled on our safaries.

We have hunted with several PHs and several outfits. Each was different, but they all made sure tere was nothing left to be desired.

And we would hunt with any of them again with pleasure.

Lions are targets of opportunity. One has to be lucky to find a shootable lion.

90% of it boils down to luck.

It has nothing to do with the ability of the PH, the outfitter, or the client.

quote:

Originally posted by Ahmed Sultan:

quote:

Originally posted by Spring:
but "the camp lion" is routinely baited, observed, and then passed by repeated hunters to the concession.

Spring do you mean to say that they deliberately bait the same lion with different clients and then turn him down?

I think there's some evidence of that in the sense that around the main camp I was in when hunting Moyowosi they did not burn the long grass. I was told by my TGT PH that they do this to keep animals near camp essentially for the ambience of the camp. There was a lion that seemed to stay in this area that we saw several times (the one in my pic above). He had some easily identifiable characteristics. I saw this same lion being hunted by Cindy Garrison on one of her TVs shows after she hunted there shortly after I left. They went through the same routine of turning it down as I had to.
The idea of having to take a picture and send it off to Texas for evaluation on shooting it was not the case when I was there a few years ago. That procedure was told to me recently by a Tanzanian PH that knows the TGT guys very well. The TGT PHs have some serious fear of the second guessing of any decision made on taking a lion. The idea of having somneone not in field holding the key to a lion hunt makes no sense to me from a practicality standpoint, but knowing how rarely TGT lion hunters are successful, I don't have any basis to doubt it.
I loved hunting with TGT and would echo everything Saeed said about the quality of their service and experience, but when it comes to overselling their lion hunts in relation to how many they expect to take each year, I think there needs to be some serious evaluation on the part of hunters as to whether or not this is right match for their needs.

How many lion hunts are they selling? They have six trophy photos in their 2008 gallery. Are they realy booking that many more hunts? Maybe some are from other concessions. I guess I could have asked them at the DSC show but passed up the chance.

To clarify a few things posted on this thread before they "spin out of control" from my knowledge and involvement with TGT and their PH's.

1- Indeed TGT and Wengert Windrose Safaris are the ONLY hunting outfitter in Africa that actively manages their wild lion populations for hunting. The 6 year age restriction is a GOVERMENT REGULATION that came into effect in Tanzania back in '04 or '05. Taking any under age lion is punishable by confiscation of the trophy and a fine equal to double the trophy fee. Of course this is being abused extensively and not carefully monitored by the authorities but this is about to change.
2- TGT never oversells their lion quota. They have a company quota of 41 lions and that is what they sell. If a concession has 4 lion, they sell 4 lions in that concession.
3- Indeed success rates are low but that is what it is if you are looking at hunting an old, fully maned wild lion anywhere in Africa. The fact that the majority of lions hunted in Tanzania (and elsewhere) are young and under 6 years of age is embarassing and the reason many HO advertize high success rates.
4- All the TGT PH's are known to me and many are good friends and we talk all the time. They have all willignly signed off on TGT's lion management strategy and are the reason it is so successful. Also to suggest that they always show the clients the same "immature lions" so they can sell more hunts is ridiculous and questions the PH's professionalism. More likely that the client that conjured that one up (Sour grapes?) couldn't accept to go home without a lion
5- Saeed, turning down a lion is not only a question of whether it is old enough or not. The lion could be old enough BUT is a pride male with sub-adults or dependant young, etc and hence was turned down. It still get's photographed and entered into their extensive database. Most of the lions not taken on their website are between 3 and 5. They don't post the ones that are younger.
6- The decision to take a lion or not rests on the PH's (so I am told by my ph friends) and not a manager in Texas or wherever. These are just envious falsehoods muttered by competitors
7- Cost of a lion hunt and success rates are not linked! However, if everyone was hunting for the a 6+ year old lion, you will have a better chance at finding one in an area that has a well managed lion population such as TGT than in one that shoots the first 3 year old that is seen. The lions "not taken" posted on their web site would all be wrongfully killed if they would have been seen by another outfitter in another area. That just shows how many male lions are coming through in the TGT blocks. There is a steady supply.
8- Every client that is booked on a lion hunt is told what to expect in terms of lion hunting. They are also told in great detail about TGT's lion policy at the cost of losing a booking.
9- I have seen websites and literature from other HO over the years and the lions shot by them are getting less and less. Population crash as a result of taking too many young males? Very possible. Someone mentioned Kigosi which is across the swamp from the Moyowosi. I would love to make a comparison...

In conclusion, the days of lion hunting are about to become much more regulated. About time I say. To think that success on lion should be close to 100% is unjustifiable in this day and age. Look at the top outfitters in Tz offering lion hunts. No one is shooting double digit lions and yet they have dozens on quota. Those that shoot double digits are taking young lion PERIOD! We, as hunters, and even more importantly, as outfitters, have an obligation to educate ourselves and clients on the sustainability of lion hunting. CITES is watching and will introduce drastic control measures if we continue to allow and expect to shoot 3-5 year old males.

Good hunting!

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:
How many lion hunts are they selling? They have six trophy photos in their 2008 gallery. Are they realy booking that many more hunts? Maybe some are from other concessions. I guess I could have asked them at the DSC show but passed up the chance.

I don't think they've ever neared 50% success, and most years seem to be well under that. Bwanamich said they only sell their quota of 41 lions, which is across their entire inventory of concessions. The year I went they took 4 lions; this year you said it was 6. That seems to go right along with the success rate Ahmed mentioned. That said, the lions in their areas are awesome and they only get that way by letting them grow older. Hunters just need to know that they'll have a wonderful experience but the odds do not favor them bringing home Leo.

Sounds like I was wrong about the secondary approval for taking a lion and will gladly stand corrected! Again, such a process was not the case when I hunted with them a few years ago and I was only told that recently by another Tanzanian PH, who I suspected knew more about the situation than me.

I went with Wengert Windrose a number of years ago to one of the Moyowasi areas. I can't remember which one. We never got a male lion on bait. Nor did we get a leopard of any sex on bait.

There were a hell of a lot of buff. However, they moved around a lot. Personally, the largest herd of buff I have ever seen was there. I estimate 2,000!

Lots of topi, zebra, reedbuck, warthog, oribi, eland, sable etc. However different species were sometimes very far away from other species.

Other species were scarce including kudu, bushbuck, and sitatunga.

Larry,
WWs was taken over by TGT in 2003. What happened prior to this was not very good in terms of wildlife management. With 6 years of intensive management which includes the most equipped and resourceful anti poaching operations in the country, a lot has changed. The WWS moyowosi concession is a 'touch" above the other moyowosi concessions under their management. In 2008, they took a total of 8 sitatunga the 2 concessions there........can't beat that anywhere in tanzania now!

quote:

The lions "not taken" posted on their web site would all be wrongfully killed if they would have been seen by another outfitter in another area

Mich, I assume that at least some of their areas are bordered by other concessions hunted by other outfitters. If so and given the large home ranges of typical lion, how do they prevent a "5 1/2 year old male" from being whacked when it steps across the boundary? It would seem that their areas would become "parks" to neighboring outfitters. I just wonder what the overall impact is if, as you say, only two companies are "actively managing their wild lion populations for hunting".

That is correct. There is nothing one can do about lions migrating out to a neighbouring block and then getting shot. In fact that is an ongoing tease from other PH's that hunt neighbouring concessions. That is why, TGT took over WWS who had contiguous concessions to TGT's. Now with a much larger area under their program in each zone, the "core" of these concessions are kind of protected.

What TGT has done is try and get the neighbours on board with their program but obviously not that easy.

The question to consider is once the authorities "clamp down" on bad lion hunting habits and start regulating and monitoring the age restriction, what are the others going to sell?

A lot has been said about others' supposedly high success rates but you look at all the lions taken by any single outfitter and you analyze them for qualification on the age restriction alone and compare this to the number of lion safaris they sell and I can guarantee that their success rate will translate to under 30% - and that is high!

I agree with Mich.

In my last 42 days in Tanzania, I have not seen a lion that I would shoot. I have seen some lions but no fully mature males.

We hunted Moyowosi in 2002 taking a decent lion and saw another better one after the first one was in the salt. Lions were roaring almost every night on a three week hunt.

This year in Kigosi (just east of Moyowosi) we never heard a lion in three weeks and only had two females come to the bait.

I have hunted with TGT at all of their Tanzanian concessions. I hunted this season at Maswa, Ugalla, and Moyowosi. I have never taken a lion with TGT but I have seen mature male lions while hunting with them. You may disagree with the lion policy but it is well explained to you before you book your hunt and TGT sticks to their policy. Many of the "Lions not taken" on their website were photographed by my PH when we hunted in Kisigo in 2004. This year I did not see a mature male lion but the quality of the other game I hunted was stunning. I have never seen better buffalo or plains game than I saw on my last hunt. I also saw three leopards walking around during the day and was able to shoot my best leopard off of a koppie after we spotted it. If they can just keep the quality of their concessions high, the game will just get better and better. The Moyowosi is a magical place and I hope I can get back to it some day. MMP

let me say up front I am jealous. i will never afford TGT. I picked up a brochure at Dallas to drool. They are owned by a wealthy American (I think Texas) family. They take the whole clan over every year and the kid did shoot this lion or at least that is what the brochure says. I just wish I had that silver spoon. They cater to the top 1%.
I have heard they do make the very rich take several trips with them to take one of those MGM lions. Wonder how many trips Jr. took to take that fatty? They also have what it appears to be x-rays of the canine tooth beside each lion pic in the brochure. I guess they can age them from the tooth.
Again Just real jealous...

it is really hard for me to believe that anyone would pay $60,000 plus for a 1 in 6 chance to kill a lion. unless you beat the odds, you are almost a half million bucks in before success comes your way. unf--king believable!!!!!!

quote:

They are owned by a wealthy American (I think Texas) family. They take the whole clan over every year and the kid did shoot this lion or at least that is what the brochure says.

I wonder what is the lion hunting success rate of the owner family?

TGTS has rules about lion hunting but so does other outfitters that I have hunted with and they also strictly enforce them. However, I believe that the difference is they don't sell hunts on their entire quota. I hunted with Luawata conservation in Zambia and they only sell lion hunts for half of their allotted lion quota, perhaps that is why their success rate is better then TGTS.

I had an option to book lion hunt with TGTS or Luke Samaras last year and the cost of hunt was not an issue, I preferred Luke Samaras because when I contacted TGTS they said if the success of our safari depends on taking a lion then we should not book with them as their success rate on lion is only 10 to 15%. Where as with Luke, I was told that we had about 50 % chance, which is fair enough. Now, I am very glad that I made that choice.

It is true that the success on lion should not effect the experience of safari but a hunter must have reasonable chance of getting lion and 15% is not reasonable in my books, after all it is a lion hunt and not a photo safari. We have hunted lion on four safaris and have been successful on two but we have enjoyed all four of them without any complains.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
it is really hard for me to believe that anyone would pay $60,000 plus for a 1 in 6 chance to kill a lion. unless you beat the odds, you are almost a half million bucks in before success comes your way. unf--king believable!!!!!!

With a succes rate like that,I would rather hunt elephant and buff,or lion if you pay if you shoot.I stopped going on any hunts where I saw and came back with nothing a long time ago.I call such trips,camping trips instead of hunting trips.

quote:

Originally posted by Ahmed Sultan:


It is true that the success on lion should not effect the experience of safari but a hunter must have reasonable chance of getting lion and 15% is not reasonable in my books, after all it is a lion hunt and not a photo safari.

Some people have no shortage of $$$.
However "in an area with high numbers of Lion", does it really make a difference.
If the senior cats survive, won't they be bigger next season.
I have always been told that the lower Zambezi Nat Park & Safari areas have high numbers which are placing HIGH pressure on the Buff herds.

A nice Ngorongoro Lion.

I shot a nice lion in TZ in 2007 in Mlele with Alick Roberts. I had shot 3 in the distant past and had been on 4 21 day safaris with him and had passed over quite a few lions before finally shooting this one. The difference is that it was ME who passed on these lions, not the company (Robin Hurt Safaris). To spend good money on a "lion safari" and then be steered by the operator into an area where they know I won't get one is no different in my mind than a "canned" hunt in SA. If TGT's success rate is so low it seems strange how this kid can be put on such a lion but paying customers can't? If I even suspected a PH of pressuring me to shoot or not to shoot, it would be my last hunt with them. I have been very fortunate in being able to make a number of trips. For most people, if they can go at all, it would be the trip of a lifetime and it would be terrible for the outfitter to have rigged the game in advance. (BTW, the 4 safaris that I spent looking over lions were great fun and I had situations where I almost had to shoot but didn't.)