jdollar, try 80 grand plus. if you take trophies fees air fair and charter, you will have a 100 grand trip and no lion but a few other good trophies. again I am just jealous. Wonder if Jr. is going to full body mount it for his bedroom at dad's house

Say what you will about the odds, but at least TGTS practices sound conservation - and I wish that more would do the same.

The odds of success should improve as time goes on.

Any lion population will need time to recover from the kind of "kiddie" lion shooting that Bwanamich so rightly criticizes.

My first lion was younger than six years old. By the looks of him, and from additional field observation, research and reading I have done in the meantime, I doubt that he was even four.

I deeply regret having killed him. I wish that the six year old minimum policy had been in effect and had been enforced.

I would be without that lion, but that would be a good thing. We need to be conservationists as well as hunters, or worse, mere trophy collectors.

I see far too many lion "trophy" photos of animals that are far too young, and that should have been allowed to mature. Education and sound conservation are needed to correct that.

quote:

This year in Kigosi (just east of Moyowosi) we never heard a lion in three weeks and only had two females come to the bait.

No Wonder after TGTS left Kigosi a few years ago. The New "Outfitter" alowed to shoot 9 LIONS the first season and 6 Lions the second. And now i think the see one and the shoot one.

Seloushunter

Ugali and MBB: when Kigosi was taken over from TGT, the new outfitter took the entire quota of lion (11 if I recall) in the first year. Most of those lions were well known to TGT managmeent and had been "nurtured" over the years waiting for them to reach maturity. Kigosi was hailed as the new Mecca of lion hunting by those booking it. The 2nd season another 9 lions (if I remember correctly) were taken in kigosi. Of the 20 lions (11 + 9) none were over 6 years of age. That caused the male population to crash. Now one never hears of Kigosi's lions or any other trophy.

Jeff h,
The x-ray of the 1st pre-molar is a tool used as a guideline to confirm the lions' age. It is not accurate enough to give one the exact age after 5/6 years but it does easily identify the age up to 5/6 years of age. TGT is the only company that regularly does that for all lion shot over the past 4 years or so and PUBLISH the information. One of their 2008 lions was a "marginal" trophy and the x-ray confirms that. The PH still works for them. One lives and learns.....They don't "make" anyone take several trips before allowing them to shoot a lion. They simply state very clearly from the beginning what they offer. Every client has the chance of being in that 15% - 20% success bracket. It may seem low ofr some but the result is that you will have a trophy to be proud of and you will have obtained it ethically and in a sustainable way.

Ahmed,
I remember your lion with Piet. It was a good lion and looked to be in the 6 year category. Ask Luke samaras how many lions like that one he shot vs his total company quota? You will find his success rate on 6 year old lions would have been 15% or so. You were one of the 15%. You were lucky

John DL,
I agree that the client should have the "final decision" whether or not to pull the trigger BUT only after the PH has SELECTED the right trophy to take. If there is a 4 year old lion in your sights and the PH says no, the client should not overrule the PH! That kid was a paying customer of TGT and was lucky to stumble across that male. They had another smaller maned male on bait and on driving up to the bait, found this one fighting with "their" male. It was an easy choice for an incredible trophy. By the way, that kid has been on half a dpozen 21 day safaris before he took his first lion.

mrlexma,
Your honesty and words are commendable. Your philosophy should be echoed by all true hunters.

TGT does not sell "Lion hunts". They sell 21 day full bag safaris with the opportunity to hunt all the Big Game species available on license and that includes lion. Their areas are some of the best general game areas in Tanzania and hence Africa. Their services, accommodation, equipment, PH's and most importantly, their back-up support is second to none. that is what you pay for. There are no guarantees on trophies. If you want guarantees they ask that you book with other operators. That is not being arrogant.

not hard to find one of TGT's biggest supporters thats for sure.

Bwanamitch. I seem to have gotten the wrong idea that the kid who took the great lion was a family member of TGT's owners. If he was not, and his family had indeed brought him along on 6 21 day safaris before getting this lion, God bless him. If he is a family member of TGT's owners, and, as you say, most of the lions are known and "nurtured" then it would seem to me that they could have hunted where and when they wanted and would have known if this big simba were part of the local talent.

As regards the client having the final say, I'll stand by that. Obviously, the PH has to make sure the animal is legal, ie., 6yo for lion or make sure the leopard is a male, but after the PH has given his "blessing" it is up to the client to decide. After shooting several lions previously, I had made up my mind not to shoot anything that wasn't great. Ended up having a lot of fun and seeing many a big lion, but passed them up.

quote:

Most of those lions were well known to TGT managmeent and had been "nurtured" over the years waiting for them to reach maturity.

This concept bugs me a bit, and I am not sure that it should.

It is nice to hear something like "on the last hunt we saw this huge xyz" or "the end of last season we spotted an enormous xyz in this area" (even if it is for show). Finding this particular animal can add to the challenge, and it just fills one with hope.

But I'm struggling with the concept of hunting "managed / nurtured wild lions". I know, wild lions roam, are killed, etc - and as witnessed by their low success rate it is not a slam-dunk hunt. And I am NOT saying there is any other way nor that this approach is not correct, just that from a hunter's perspective it is a bit weird. At what point does it begin to feel like one of those "Sanctuary hunts" for whitetails?

The other thing is, I think I might feel guilty shooting Leo on his 7th birthday, after he has been "permitted" to live up to that point. I don't know, but it just takes something out of it for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill C:

quote:

Most of those lions were well known to TGT managmeent and had been "nurtured" over the years waiting for them to reach maturity.

This concept bugs me a bit, and I am not sure that it should.

It is nice to hear something like "on the last hunt we saw this huge xyz" or "the end of last season we spotted an enormous xyz in this area" (even if it is for show). Finding this particular animal can add to the challenge, and it just fills one with hope.

But I'm struggling with the concept of hunting "managed / nurtured wild lions". I know, wild lions roam, are killed, etc - and as witnessed by their low success rate it is not a slam-dunk hunt. And I am NOT saying there is any other way nor that this approach is not correct, just that from a hunter's perspective it is a bit weird. At what point does it begin to feel like one of those "Sanctuary hunts" for whitetails?

The other thing is, I think I might feel guilty shooting Leo on his 7th birthday, after he has been "permitted" to live up to that point. I don't know, but it just takes something out of it for me.

I applaud TGT's conservation efforts, but I've got to admit I have the same uneasy feeling as Bill C.

Bill,

It's not just about age, it's also about whether they're holding a pride or not and if so, if that pride has dependent young. This policy undoubtedly costs them a lot of money but if more hunters and hunting companies were willing to do the same thing the Lion populations would increase dramatically. I happen to know that the same company commissioned (at great expense!) a very comprehensive report on the subject and although they keep it close to their chest, it must make fantastic reading......I know some of the people who contributed to it and they're the absolute leaders in their fields.

Also, just think if the same selectivity was carried over to other species in general and Elephants in particular, what an immense difference it would make.

Bill,
I may have used the wrong choice of words. What I meant is that most of the male lions had been seen and turned down before by TGT PH's over the years. They were all pride males and therefore territorial as is the case with a pride male. If you have access to an area for over a dozen or more years, you get a good idea of how many prides there ar ein a block and roughly where their individual territories are. You may also bump into the same male lion several times over the years and are able to recognize whether he is a "new" male never seen before or one from the local pride. What you can't do though is find him whenever you want. Especially under hunting conditions in over 2 million acres or whatever the prides territory size is.

For example, all the web site lions "not taken" does not mean they know where each one is to be found. Whenever possible lions are photographed. Occasionally, one can identify the same lion from different photos over several years. All the data collected is simply used to judge local population trends and numbers and whether or not the quota allocated for hunting is sustainable. In addition, as a PH, if you know that the pride down by the ABC river has a 5 year old male with it, why waste your time baiting there?

That big lion, for example, had never been seen before by any staff or PH of TGT. It was a "new" lion that must have wandered in from the park. That is explained by the fact that it had probably been chased out of his pride by younger males and was now a nomad searching for a new territory or simply skulking away from other stronger, younger pride males.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill C:

quote:

Most of those lions were well known to TGT managmeent and had been "nurtured" over the years waiting for them to reach maturity.

This concept bugs me a bit, and I am not sure that it should.

I don't think it should bug you at all, Bill. I know you realize that Tanzanian lion cannot be made to "pop up" like targets on a shooting range. Lion that are KNOWN to be in an area can and do go virtually unseen for months at a time. They are among the smartest of game animals.

But when a young one or one holding a pride is seen, and when that lion is passed (as it should be) by the PH and the hunter, I applaud that kind of "nurturing" and would hope that it would be the standard for all of us who hunt lion.

Again, that kind of restraint is just sound and scientific lion conservation, and we need more of it.

Lion hunting in Tanzania is difficult, and can be extremely frustrating. Nothing - not even seeing a shootable male - can be even remotely guaranteed in any area I am aware of, and that includes TGTS's blocks. This was true even before the six year old rule was introduced. Anyone who says or suspects otherwise hasn't done it or has generalized from some incredible good luck!

Because of this, conservation has too often taken a back seat to client pressure, and company pressure, to produce. That is unfortunate, and more than unfortunate, it is counterproductive and wrong. We need to be stewards of wildlife, not killers who "pay to play" no matter what the rules or consequences may be.

Mich,

TAWICO which is owned and operated by Jack Brittingham has the same high standards of lion management and overall conservation. In fact if I had only one chance to hunt lion it would be in their Rungwa Ikili concession. Their success rate is substantially higher than TGT's at least with this concession. Just wanted them cast in the same positive light.

Jeff

TGT booking 41 lion hunts based on their lion quota of 41 seems unethical to me, seeing that only a fraction of that number would be shootable, ie. over 6 years of age. I would like to see them limit the number of hunts offered to get their sucess rate up. But as long as they remain fully booked I'm betting thats not going to happen.

Thank you for the insightful responses.

I do understand, and don't mean to over-simplify the process of lion hunting (heck I hunted lion for 43 days, passed up multiple, and shot one!). I just get mental images of "Big Cat Diary" and the Marsh Pride when we talk about active management of wild lions (I love that show, anybody else think Saba is sort of hot?).

MR you are spot on, and I too give TGT a lot of credit for their efforts, as well as those other Tanz outfitters trying to be selective in what they shoot. Like you, looking back, while I enjoyed my lion hunts immensely, not having a lion in the trophy room would not kill me.

There are other outfitters in other countries who manage their lion too, I am hunting with a PH in Zim this year who has had multiple lion on quota but only shot one a year for the last few since he has been in the area, trying to build their numbers and quality up. The outfitter in Cameroon where I hunted LDE did the same thing, he would shoot 1-2 a year and not allow returning hunters a second lion (he said "one lion is enough for anybody", the Frenchmen who was in camp with me desperately wanted a second one but Guy wouldn't allow it at any price). We saw a lot of lion during that hunt, including what would have been to them a couple of shootable males.

Lions are targets of opportunity. One has to be lucky to find a shootable lion.

90% of it boils down to luck.
my experience exactly

BB
You say thier success is substantially higher? what is it? And how is it calculated? Not trying to say TWC isn't managing their areas but would be interested to know their success rates. Between their 5 blocks they have over 20 lions on quota which they sell, but I only see pics of and hear of 3-4 lions taken by them a year. I have heard they have a slightly different strategy; they decide beforehand how many lions they will take per block in a given year, sell that number of lion hunts, try to apply the 6 year age min but it is not a train smash if that doesn't happen. Perhaps I heard wrong?

To answer gpauld, in my subsequent posts I explained that TGT does not sell "lion hunts", they sell 21 day safaris with lion on license amongst other species. With a quota of 41 lions, they sell 41 x 21 day safaris or less. If they exceed 41 x 21 day safaris then the excess ones are clearly WITHOUT lion on license. Don't forget that on a 21 day hunt they also offer the full spectrum of game allowed based on availability in the concessions you will be visiting. There is no "overselling" of any kind. their success rate is based on the number of 21 day safaris they sell as all of them would be hunting lion. If they were to start saying "well this guy didn't spend much effort on lion" and "that client had other priorities" and they only selected the safaris that had lion as their number 1 priority and actively focused on hunting lion at the expense of most other animals, their success rate would be substantially higher don't you think?

Their average quota utilization is often less than 40%, not because there are no animals in their block but because they apply the same high trophy criteria for all species one hunts.

There is an urgent move by world renowned orgs to have independant scientific bodies approve lions hunted for minimum criteria before allowing the trophies of it to be exported. when that happens, ther ewill be a drastic drop in so called "success rates". 10 years ago, hunters in Tz were shooting 250 lions a year on average. Over the last 3 or so years the number is down to 150 or less. Doesn't that say something?

At the DSC show of all the trophy mounts that were there, I didn't see a single mounted lion that would have qualified as a wild (as in not captive bred or raised) 6+ year old lion. But yet they are proudly "on show" at one of the most reputable hunting conventions in the world as if the hunters that hunted them are to be applauded! There were close to 20 of them if I recall. If they were all free ranging lions (Which they were not), the damage to the pride system and local populations their taking has caused is immeasurable.

Mich, I qualified my remarks i think by referencing the Ikili concession. Their management is supposed to be inlockstep with TGT's but now you have caused me to question myself.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
Mich, I qualified my remarks i think by referencing the Ikili concession. Their management is supposed to be inlockstep with TGT's but now you have caused me to question myself.

That is what he "heard" many others "heard" things about TGT that had to be corrected so dont jump to concusions. There is alot of this I "heard" stuff going around.

Pauly,

More than heard. I was the first lion hunter of TAWICO after they took over the concessions from the Mullas. I stay in touch with them and consider them friends. I however do not pretend to be privvy to all management decisions.

Jeff

Pauly, you are right.

Why don't you go see them in Reno and find out for yourself?

Sorry Mich, I misunderstood your post.

LOL wow

In case my previous post may be interpreted as being negative towards TWC, I want to clarify that TWC do have strong management policies in place for their blocks and their hunting.

IMO TWC is FIRST Rate

Seloushunter

If we, as hunters, HOs, PHs and agents, don't stop shooting immature Lion there will come a day when we will not be allowed to take Lion. That's my opinion and I have held it since the turn of the century. There is too much pressure from some native Africans, the bunny huggers and folks who are simply ignorant of the theory of hunting/ conservation. It is therefore incumbent upon us to self regulate and manage Lion populations. This has nothing to do with canned Lion shooting, which is shameful and should never be considered hunting.

While on a 21 day dedicated Lion hunt with a partner (2 Lion on License) in the Selous in 2001, I never saw a shootable Lion, by my standards, nor did my partner. We were hunting 1x1, of course, so that amounts to 42 days of shooting baits, hanging them, checking them daily, topping them up, etc. I did see a young male, just out of spots, and my PH said I could shoot him if I wanted. He was still running with his Momma and I didn't even consider him.

Two years later on another dedicated Lion hunt in Zambia, I took the Lion pictured in my avatar on day 11. He is a huge Lion but has little mane (from the bush and from fighting) but is either the largest or second largest ever taken in Zambia at that time and was high in the record book the last time I looked. He came into the bait and was killed with one shot from my .458Lott firing a 500gr. Swift A-Frame at 50 yards. While we knew there was a large male Lion feeding in this area from tracks and bait hits, I consider it as much luck as skill that I got him and I believe that is the case with all Lion hunting. BTW this was around one year from the re-opening of Lion hunting in Zambia following a government closure and I believe this elapsed time without hunting gave him time to mature that otherwise might not have been possible.

There are a lot of misunderstandings about Lion hunting, even by experienced African hunters, but one thing is certain; if you want a Lion, go sooner rather than later. They may not be available in the future.

I wonder what the mortality rate is for mature lions who are driven from the pride. I was told by a PH that very often when a new male takes over a pride the older male is so badly injured he cannot survive. He did not believe many males have much of a chance of getting to 6 years of age. If that is true I see lion prices going up even more. Wouldn't it be nice if the African countries could unite with a one lion per lifetime rule? This PH told me the biggest detriment to the Tanzania lion population was from enormously wealthy hunters who by bribing official are granted permission to hunt where they shouldn't and take multiple lions. Has anyone else heard of this happening?

LJS,

I'm by no means a lion expert, but I do pay attention when knowledgeable people speak. My understanding is that a male lion's life expectancy greatly varies on a number of factors. If he is able to form alliances with other males (or have a brother or brothers) while he is young he stands a better chance of surviving the lean years following removal from his birth pride. Also, where as lone lions may head a pride for 1 or 2 years (3 if they are quite lucky) a coalition of males may hold a pride for 3-5 years. Reasoning that most males will be 4-6 years old when they take a pride it would stand that a lone male will be kicked out of a pride at around 6-7 years of age. A coalition of males will be kicked out at around 7-10 years of age. As you have stated a lion being injured when being kicked out of a pride may result in quick starvation. If not then it depends on their ability to feed themselves as to how much longer they survive. Conceivably in a game rich environment a male that left a pride in a coalition and was able to feed himself for a few years without being shot or mauled by pride males could live to see 10-13 years old. I'd imagine that's rare though.

Brett

Something is definitely wrong with lions hunting in Tanzania.

I have tried hunting them for the past 6 years, and never saw a single shootable lion.

I think I see a little misunderstanding here.

TGT claims they do not shoot lions that are less than 6 years old.

That is just fine, and I have no problems with it.

TGT then posts photos of lions that look like they would be good candidates to be shot by other outfitters, and they claim they let them go.

There is no promlem with that either.

Now it starts to get a bit murky.

It is ASSUMED that TGT KEEPS these lions until they do grow and then THEIR clients shoot them.

TGT does not claim this, but this is what almost anyone looking at their lion hunting policy ASSUMES.

Now, what is there to stop the people hunting next door to TGT shooting those lions when they see them?

The example given up by Bwanamich about the concession changing hands tells us what happens when those lions are not hunted in TGT's concessions.

We hunted three seperate concession of TGT's last year. I am afraid we did not see a single one of those lions they leave around for the future.

So where have those lions gone?

Have they been shot on other concessions?

At the end of the day, free roaming lions like to move around quite a lot.

And any lion hunter who does shoot a great trophy lion should consider himself VERY lucky.

It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with TGT's management's policy, the ability of the PH or him.

Just lady luck smiled on him.

Saeed, if you mean that TGTS's lion management policy can't work unless it's universal everywhere in the vicinity of TGTS's blocks, not to say Tanzania as a whole, then I agree 100%. And I also agree that luck plays a huge and dominant role in lion hunting.

The only hope for lion in Tanzania is the uniform adoption and enforcement of the six year old minimum rule.

I realize that aging lion is iffy, and that requiring a six year old minimum will make PHs and companies very conservative. But so be it.

What is the alternative? Where will we be when there are no lion left to hunt?

I have been lucky enough to hunt them, and there is nothing else like it.

I would hate for them to be mismanaged to the point where lion hunting is over and done with.

quote:

Originally posted by gpauld:
TGT booking 41 lion hunts based on their lion quota of 41 seems unethical to me, seeing that only a fraction of that number would be shootable, ie. over 6 years of age. I would like to see them limit the number of hunts offered to get their sucess rate up. But as long as they remain fully booked I'm betting thats not going to happen.

gpauld you have hit the nail in head.

quote:

Ahmed,
I remember your lion with Piet. It was a good lion and looked to be in the 6 year category. Ask Luke samaras how many lions like that one he shot vs his total company quota? You will find his success rate on 6 year old lions would have been 15% or so. You were one of the 15%. You were lucky

Bawanamich, I have no idea about Luke's success rate on six year old lions but I take your words on it. However, I speak from my experience (which I admit is limited), may be we were very lucky to get that lion but there were lions in good number in the area and that also contributed to our success. The other hunter in camp also got a very respectable male while we were there, infact they showed us video of four lions on their bait all with full mane collar. We passed two other males which were borderline and we took our PH’s word that they were below six year old. When I compare my experience with other members who have hunted TGTS blocks, I come to the conclusion that I made the right choice in 2007 and will book with Luke over TGTS any day.

You are very right that TGTS sell 21 days full bag safari and not 21 days lion hunt, they were very honest about it and told me exactly that when I approached them . It is the choice of the client and if one is looking for a lion specific hunt with all the other animals being hunted incidental to the lion hunt then in my opinion TGTS would not be the best choice.

LJS,
you bring in a very interesting point and one that research is lacking on. What do pride males do and how long do they live once they have been kicked out of a pride? To start off with, if they fail in taking over another pride (which is probably mostly the case), they become very secretive animals. They hide in thick cover, become more active at night moving to stay away form other lions, stop calling, are always on the move and hence would not hang around a bait for example (feed and move on), etc, etc. I have been told by some knowledgeable lion researches that their estimation is that they live an average of 2 years or less on their own under such conditions. That would mean a life span of approx 8-9 years average for a male lion. That to me is consistant with my observations and discussions with many a PH, guide and researcher.

Saeed,
It is interesting that you never saw a lion in the Moyowosi. TGT took 2 lions from those concessions last season. Every season at least 1 - 3 lions are taken by their clients there. Of the lions not taken on their website and photographed, quite a number were from the Moyowosi. A lion count done in the Southern paret of Moyowosi in 2005 showed a good, healthy (not great) population. 2/3 of the Moyowosi is under "recovery" since having been taken over by TGTS. I disagree with you that TGT's policy has nothing to do with the success of taking a 6yr old lion with them. By not shooting the 4 and 5 year old lions they see, TGT will have the best base resource available then any other area that does the opposite. They understand that they lose a certain % to their neighbours every year. At the moment it is not a level playing field. But once the field is leveled by introducing control and monitoring bodies as explaine dpreviously, then the scenario will be entirely different. Try to analyze the lions pictures of trophies taken by various outfitters. Select how many you believe are in the 6 yrs or more category and then work out the stats in comparison to TGT. TGT was guilty of the same common behavior almost a decade ago of shooting pre-trophy lions. It has taken that long for some lion populations in some of their areas to recover from that unsustainable practice. Just because others are shooting the 4 year adolescent lions that they leave shouldn't be a reason for them to abandon their policy. On the contrary, the others should get on board as mrlexma states.

Ahmed,
you contradict yourself in the 2 statements. TGT doesn't sell "lion hunts" so it can't be selling unethically? Your 2nd statemetn shows that you were very clearly informed of what to expect. You can't be more ethical and upfront than that. A respectable male to me equates to a "pre-trophy" male which is a 4-5 year old. Not to discredit anyone but there is still very little understanding amongst ph's, including experienced ones on field ageing wild lions.

To give you an example, when TGT first adopted their policy in conjunction with some of the best lion researchers in the world, all thier PH's were given 2 dozen or so photos of male lions whose ages were known. They were asked to age those lions. The variance in age between 2 ph's allocated to the same lion was often 2-3 years!! 8 years later and thousands of hours of discussion, studying and interpreting pics, etc, the same PH's were given another test. Where there was a variance in age estimation, it was often not more than 1 year! What I am saying is that too often I have seen experienced PH's over estimating the age of a male lion by more than 2 years. That is the difference between a 4 year old "adolescent" lion and a 6 year old "trophy lion".

If I have time and bandwidth, I will try to upload a series of pictures of known male lions and then you can all have a go at aging these. in fact ask your favorite PH to do the same and report back. You will be suprised.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Ahmed,
you contradict yourself in the 2 statements. TGT doesn't sell "lion hunts" so it can't be selling unethically? Your 2nd statemetn shows that you were very clearly informed of what to expect. You can't be more ethical and upfront than that.

Bawanamich, you have a point and I don't think that TGTS are unethical. As said before, they are very upfront about what they offer and it is up to the client to decide whether he wants it or not.

quote:

Saeed,
It is interesting that you never saw a lion in the Moyowosi.

And I am not blaming TGT for this.

I know lions like to roam.

In fact, Alan showed me a photo of a very nice mature male he has taken earlier in the year in Fish Eagle.

He also showed me the ant hill the lion was on.

Still, I think people are giving TGT too much credit for not shooting lions they believe are younger than 6 years - hoping that in a year or two they could just book with TGT and have those same lions waiting for them.

Bawanamich, a question out of curiosity, is it the same person or PH in photo do you have any idea? Both these photo are from TGTS gallery from different years.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ahmed Sultan:
Bawanamich, a question out of curiosity, is it the same person or PH in photo do you have any idea? Both these photo are from TGTS gallery from different years.

Achmed,the guy in the picture is Dan Friedkin,the owner of TGT's son,and his 2 boys.They usually enjoy hunts during July in Maswa.

That is right and those are the only 2 lions the family has taken since coming to Tanzania in over a decade. 1st one in 2006 I believe and the 2nd in 2008. The 1st one came from Moyowosi.

quote:

Posted by Spring:
"The idea of having to take a picture and send it off to Texas for evaluation on shooting it was not the case when I was there a few years ago. That procedure was told to me recently by a Tanzanian PH that knows the TGT guys very well. The TGT PHs have some serious fear of the second guessing of any decision made on taking a lion. The idea of having somneone not in field holding the key to a lion hunt makes no sense to me from a practicality standpoint, but knowing how rarely TGT lion hunters are successful, I don't have any basis to doubt it."

quote:

Posted by Bwanamich:"6- The decision to take a lion or not rests on the PH's (so I am told by my ph friends) and not a manager in Texas or wherever. These are just envious falsehoods muttered by competitors"

Here is a excerpt of Jack Brittingham's(recent owner of Tawico) lion hunt with TGT:

"What does all this have to do with lion hunting in Tanzania, you ask? The answer is that yesterday we discovered a buffalo kill made by a pride of lions only two kilometers from our base camp. In this pride was the finest lion I have ever seen. We spent yesterday afternoon with the pride trying to get a look at the cubs, lionesses, and the male, to confirm the dynamics of this particular pride before making a final decision on whether or not we should try for this male. As darkness fell, we were undecided, so we returned this morning after a night full of lion calls, and again spent several hours trying to determine if the cubs were of sufficient age to survive without there patriarch (I hear him roaring as I write this at 11:39 PM).

Without a clear answer to our dilemma, a call was placed via Sat-phone to the main office of Tanzania Game Trackers in Arusha. Further discussions were held, and a great volume of lion research data was consulted. Additional calls and e-mails were made until this decision reached the very top of the food chain in the organization and the executive order was given. The Verdict: This lion had been with the pride for at least three years, he has been the dominant breeder during that time and the subadult cubs could survive without his further protection. The lion is at a point where natural succession is imminent and to wait longer would very likely guarantee that he disappear from his current role as pride leader, only to be taken apart in a solo battle by his mortal enemy, the hyena.

It is difficult for me to express the emotional rollercoaster this process has taken me on. My fundamental belief that wildlife management is more important than trophy harvest has been fighting with my primordial instinct which says to hunt this magnificent creature no matter what. Finally, after employing all that modern technology and good science has to offer, the hunt is on."

Full article can be read here:http://www.jackbrittingham.com/articles/article,20030702,01,02.php

quote:

Originally posted by Steiner:
Achmed,the guy in the picture is Dan Friedkin,the owner of TGT's son,and his 2 boys.They usually enjoy hunts during July in Maswa.

Those are two very lucky boys. I bet dad makes one heck of a hit at career day.

This is really good stuff, written by some extremely knowledgable and experienced people.

I just booked a 21 day full bag hunt in Moyowosi for 2010. On 2 previous lion hunts I've focused intirely on lions and I've taken one lion. TGTS was right up front about their success rate on lions (15% to 20% claimed). They sold me a FULL BAG safari not a LION hunt. I understood their lion policy and I agree with it completely. I believe that if their management plan was "Africa wide", lion hunting would survive for my grandchildren to enjoy.

I plan to have the time of my life on this hunt, lion or no lion.