I don't want to post this on the thread about Tim and Stu, but I think the question is one we should debate...

You shoot a PH or staff member accidentally. Would you feel responsible for paying for the medical costs?

PHs: you shoot a client accidentally. Would you cover the medical care costs?

Lawyers: I know you don't practice law in Africa, but what if this happened in North America? Do the waivers we sign go both ways? Do umbrella policies generally cover this kind of stuff?

Well in your scenario they certainly didn't shoot themselves, so I don't know why they should incur the costs when it wasn't their fault. I would certainly pay the costs, regardless of whether I was the PH or the hunter if I fired the shot responsible for the accident.

I think every situation is different. I would first go to my insurance and see what could be done if anything, then their insurance if it could be used or considered if they have any, then legally how that all applies but in the end I would not want anything but the best for whoever was harmed. I think reasonable people can work through things like that one way or the other. If not, then it is legal and all bets are off.

I don't claim to know the laws of all countries but in this country whoever causes the incident would be responsible for the damages unless there are mitigating circumstances. An accident relieves the criminal charges since there in no intent to harm, much like a car accident, if you intentionally or through negligence run someone over you would be liable for civil and criminal charges. If it was a true accident them just the civil damages.An investigation into the shooting would make that decision.
Little Joe mentioned insurance and I would think a rider could be obtained but I don't recall this ever being discussed seems like you can insure anything why not this, any insurance repre's out there
The real problem with an incident in a foreign country is a settlement would need to be agreed on, the injured wouldn't settle for a check nor would the causing party leave a blank check so inevitably a court and or lawyer will get involved to protect everyone interest. The other problem since if different countries are involved will the settlement be enforceable should the party refuse to pay?
If there are any international injury lawyers out there it should get interesting.
There was a accidental shooting in Alaska a few years ago where a Guide who accidentally shot one of his clients on a bear hunt but I have never heard anything with regards to the outcome?

This is not legal advice. However, if not otherwise excluded (e.g., exclusion for use of firearms -- policies usually have an exclusion for use of motor vehicles, watercraft, sometimes ATV's etc. for example) a U.S. homeowner's policy or personal umbrella would ordinarily cover an "occurence" i.e., an accident, but not intentional acts. So there would be a good chance that an accidental shooting in the U.S. would be covered.

However, I'd check the policy territory to make sure it applies worldwide and doesn't limit coverage to the U.S.

Coverage would depend on the language of the policy.

I've never seen a waiver that runs both ways. Chances are, depending on the governing law, that the safari company couldn't bind the PH, trackers, etc. anyway. Again, not legal advice, just my personal thoughts and ramblings.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
I don't want to post this on the thread about Tim and Stu, but I think the question is one we should debate...

You shoot a PH or staff member accidentally. Would you feel responsible for paying for the medical costs?

Absolutely! If there is no insurance in place for such accidents, then I would feel obligated to not only pay for medical bills but a fair compensation for lost pay, or at least help the family get through the tough time.

In the above mentioned scenario, I am the only one responsible for pressing the trigger be it an accident or gross negligence on my part.

I don't believe feeling responsible is an issue the question is are their any mitigating circumstances that could minimize the liability, if not your on the hook as in most cases everyone needs a lawyer to protects one interest. From what I know as I have several Lawyers in my extended family the lawyers will come to an agreement draw up the legal enforcable document and that 's it.

With respect for all involved that have given thoughtful comemtary on this so far.
I'm pleased that the discussion has taken a turn in a direction that people can give opinions that
are valid with out being there . I hope the recovery continues for all that we're present.

No waiver or indemnity precluded negligence from civil or criminal prosecution here.

"Waivers" and "releases" are window dressing and designed to discourage claims and help defendants establish defenses or assumption of the risk claims to reduce damages, but would not serve as a bar to actions or recoveries in U.S. Courts.

Liability policies would cover claims- but unlikely that you could find an insurance carrier to insure this risk at an affordable premium.

Raamw

You mean "it seems like every American needs a lawyer to protect his perceived interests". Every other country gets by just fine without each citizen having a lawyer chained up in their front yard ready to go to war over nothing.

As to the question, if you shoot someone, your "fault" is determined by the legal system where the shooting occurred. There are exceptions, but not rational ones.

Whether you are "responsible" if you shoot someone, well that depends on the quality of your parents. If they did a half assed job of raising you, you will be responsible.

Waivers may or may not be worth the paper they are written on depending on the law to some degree but mostly on the random chance of the judge deciding he likes you or does not.

You cannot protect yourself 100% of the time from either your own blunders or the blunders of others. As long as you are alive there is risk.

That being said, if you have a policy and the insurance company hires one of its stable of lawyers to "represent" you, the lawyer does in fact know who is paying him or her (the insurance company)and who has sent them business in the past (the insurance company)and may in the future(the insurance company). So you need a very loose definition of "represent" when you discuss how you are represented by a lawyer hired by your insurance company.

I have insurance to cover death - you or me.
I have international medical aid and air rescue policy for me and I encourage clients to take out similar insurance. I pay private medical insurance for my staff. I have never had 'life insurance' for them other than a promise to house and look after their families - a promise that I have had to keep once and made increasingly difficult by bob who not only don't want me, but don't want any of dads retired workers or the orphan that I house and feed.

I have never been able to get insurance to cover disability - this, infact is a 'nightmare scenario' - to be alive and not able to work. Dead, my kids have school and university paid for and the wife can probably have a new merc 4x4 as well - but crippled...that's not good

All hunters in germany have an insurance for hunting accidents (required to get license). Mine covers all hunting related accidents world wide.

I don't like the idea of having Lawyer but if it comes to legal matters that your not competent to handle what choice do you have, If you have done something that brings on potential court action in most cases a competent Lawyer will get it settled quickly and in everyone s best interest.
I represented myself one time in small claims court only because no Lawyer will get involved in small cases or their charges would be greater than the expected outcome, trust me pay the Lawyer as I will never deal with a court again without one. My next dealings where I opted to not use an attorney was in Tax appeals court with the county, bigger nightmare than my small claims experience. It seems when you come in by yourself you get no respect and they gang up on you, I was called Cavalier and threatened with contempt of court when I questioned the integrity of the court proceeding.

You ought to just be thankful that you're alive living in a suburb of Chicago like you are, LOL!

Ain't that the truth, most corrupt state in the nation

Hate to even think about things like this...but I guess it can always happen.

"Lawyers: I know you don't practice law in Africa, but what if this happened in North America? Do the waivers we sign go both ways? Do umbrella policies generally cover this kind of stuff?"

I hate to give you the typical lawyer's response, but it depends. Waivers are contracts and contracts require a few things to be considered valid. If you're an adult, in your right mind, paid valuable consideration ($$$); then technically, the contract could be construed completely against you, and still be enforceable. Judges tend to really dislike really one-sided contracts, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's invalid. Best to read the contract and ask for amendments if necessary. It may cost you some additional money, but it may be worth it.

As for the Umbrella, my experience is that the insurance company's standard operating procedure is to always say "NO," and then deal with the consequences later. The answer again revolves around your policy. Read it carefully before committing. Even if the policy clearly read "covers accidental shootings," they're likely to deny coverage at first. It's like squeezing blood out of a turnip.

We have a friend who is a PH both in SA and Tanzania who was shot in camp by accident by a client in the shoulder using a 458.

The shoter was very sorry indeed, all the usual sadness but our friend was never the less near death, no income for years painful rehab, family suffered, lost his home. The shooter wined and cried and pleaded like they all do saying "it was just a horrible accident". However he paid bugger all and the my friend sued the nice man who felt so bad that he shot someone in United States Federal Court and now the poor shooter who still claims he is a wonderful guy and it was all just an unfortunate accident has now found himself suffering financially big time.

No one ever wants to hurt anyone unless you are insane but sadly it is your problem when a gun accidentally discharges, finger on the trigger or not. To say gee Bwana I am really sorry does not mend the damage or anyone's life, remove the bullet hole and get some poor bugger back to work or make the person forget. Neither does all the praying one can muster up and throw in a dozen or so candle light treats as well.

It is up to the Court System and Pray that you have insurance to cover the settlement the courts decide is just. It is traumatic for everyone involved but a hell of a lot more so for the poor guy or girl who is killed, wounded, disfigured, maimed who along with himself his family and friends must suffer for the remainder of their lives.

Ganyana, So my friend are you just saying I should let you bleed out if there was ever an accident? You know how finicky bush communication can be at times. Might take awhile to get ahold of someone.

Good question. Unfortunately, legal and "what is right" are two entirely different things that have nothing in common. I work for an international company and I never cease to be shocked at "legal rights" and what is right under the unwritten law of common sense" (the sense least common!!). If someone commits an unsafe act due to circumstances that they were not trained or prepared for, OK. Evaluate and retrain and bystanders need to learn so they do not repeat this error. However, don't tell me "shi@ happens".

We have a wonderful forum with a wealth of experience and I am shocked at the number of "shi% happens" excuses used as a smoke screen to minimize individual responsibility. I watch numerous hunting shows and my wife and I are appalled at the natural, unsafe weapons handling. I come from a different world and mindset. I was in a hunting camp a while back with several "self proclaimed international expert bwanas" where I had enough of my wife and I being endangered by habitual unsafe firearms handling. I spoke to the guide/outfitter who agreed with me but explained to me the situation of money, sponsors, internet gossip, etc. I countered with my value of life. I finally announced at breakfast that I had enough of warning everyone about firearms safety and I would consider the next blatant unsafe act as an attempt to kill my wife or myself and I would use the force necessary to defend our lives. It was a big wake up call for everyone! I was not bluffing and everyone knew it. Why did it have to come to that?

I worked with the best in my former life and we still had rare accidents because we are humans. However, no one ever cried "its combat, shi& happens!" They manned up, accepted responsiblity, paid their pennance and became a safer person as well as a role model for others. Safe firearms handling is muscle memory and most people (I don't give a darn if you killed more DG than K. Bell) will ever have the training to get that muscle memory. Watch the hunting shows and the average "Joe Gun Guy". The natural grip is finger on the trigger and zero muzzle control. "Its unloaded!" "Its on safe!" If they are unsafe under the best conditions do you think they will be more safe when it matters? When will they be safe? In the bush/during limited visibility/under stress (that they never trained for or experienced)? Man up and admit it and start doing everything you can to get that muscle memory. We are humans; tell your buddy to watch his muzzle and keep his darn finger off the trigger until he are ready to shoot and his muzzle is covering the target.

Everyone my wife and I have ever hunted with has always commented that they have never felt so safe or comfortable because of our safe firearms handling. I have handled firearms under the worst conditions more than once and passed the test so I have zero tolerance for "what if". I have also worked on a casualty while someone stood by and looked at their gun wondering "why did it go off?" It's simple. You pointed your gun at him and pulled the trigger.

If you are unsafe, I will tell you and help train you. If you have an accident (and accept responsiblity) I will support you and help you with the healing and retraining process. However, don't ever tell me "shi# happens". I don't care what your lawyer/OSHA/ASME/Obama/Yo mama/ thinks.....its all about doing the right thing. You shoot somebody take responsiblity and do everything possible to correct your mistake. "I'm sorry" and "shi@ happens" are hollow excuses.

quote:

Originally posted by GOB:
We have a friend who is a PH both in SA and Tanzania who was shot in camp by accident by a client in the shoulder using a 458.

The shoter was very sorry indeed, all the usual sadness but our friend was never the less near death, no income for years painful rehab, family suffered, lost his home. The shooter wined and cried and pleaded like they all do saying "it was just a horrible accident". However he paid bugger all and the my friend sued the nice man who felt so bad that he shot someone in United States Federal Court and now the poor shooter who still claims he is a wonderful guy and it was all just an unfortunate accident has now found himself suffering financially big time.

No one ever wants to hurt anyone unless you are insane but sadly it is your problem when a gun accidentally discharges, finger on the trigger or not. To say gee Bwana I am really sorry does not mend the damage or anyone's life, remove the bullet hole and get some poor bugger back to work or make the person forget. Neither does all the praying one can muster up and throw in a dozen or so candle light treats as well.

It is up to the Court System and Pray that you have insurance to cover the settlement the courts decide is just. It is traumatic for everyone involved but a hell of a lot more so for the poor guy or girl who is killed, wounded, disfigured, maimed who along with himself his family and friends must suffer for the remainder of their lives.

Someone being shot in camp by accident should NEVER happen.

This sort of thing CANNOT be compared to an accident similar to Tim's and Stu's.

I would truly hope that no one ever has to go through something like this.

It would be beyond stupidity for an Outfitter to not have insurance for not only himself, but also his clients. Who would be so nieve to think that something like this could never happen.

So, the PH should make sure he is covered finanacially from both ends JMO!

quote:

It would be beyond stupidity for an Outfitter to not have insurance for not only himself, but also his clients.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by GOB:
We have a friend who is a PH both in SA and Tanzania who was shot in camp by accident by a client in the shoulder using a 458.

The shoter was very sorry indeed, all the usual sadness but our friend was never the less near death, no income for years painful rehab, family suffered, lost his home. The shooter wined and cried and pleaded like they all do saying "it was just a horrible accident". However he paid bugger all and the my friend sued the nice man who felt so bad that he shot someone in United States Federal Court and now the poor shooter who still claims he is a wonderful guy and it was all just an unfortunate accident has now found himself suffering financially big time.

No one ever wants to hurt anyone unless you are insane but sadly it is your problem when a gun accidentally discharges, finger on the trigger or not. To say gee Bwana I am really sorry does not mend the damage or anyone's life, remove the bullet hole and get some poor bugger back to work or make the person forget. Neither does all the praying one can muster up and throw in a dozen or so candle light treats as well.

It is up to the Court System and Pray that you have insurance to cover the settlement the courts decide is just. It is traumatic for everyone involved but a hell of a lot more so for the poor guy or girl who is killed, wounded, disfigured, maimed who along with himself his family and friends must suffer for the remainder of their lives.

Someone being shot in camp by accident should NEVER happen.

This sort of thing CANNOT be compared to an accident similar to Tim's and Stu's.

Shooting someone in camp vs shooting someone during a Buffalo charge = You are responsible for the outcome. There is no difference, you are morally responsible to make that person whole again as much as possible and that usually mean financial compensation/support. The mental healing is dependent on the victim's inate constitution. "Sorry mate", "shit happens", "all part of the game we play" doesn't cut it. Words don't usually pay the bills.

Being shot anywhere should NEVER happen unless in a combat situation. There may well be circumstances which may by viewed by the Court but there is no excuse to shoot anyone, NEVER.

Insurance is wonderful and hopefully everyone is covered but sadly many young PH's cannot afford it and depend upon the Outfitter for which they work. Many outfitters sadly are ill prepared to look after their clients.

No excuse for handling a firearm poorly. NONE!


But there is a risk to hunting Africa to the PH and client. We all know this.

Is not this "risk" what draws all of us to Africa dangerous game hunting?


dale

quote:

Originally posted by SG Olds:
Raamw


Whether you are "responsible" if you shoot someone, well that depends on the quality of your parents. If they did a half assed job of raising you, you will be responsible.

This was the only response that needed to be posted here....Every bullet YOU load into a magazine or barrel YOU are resposible for accident or not.

quote:

Originally posted by daleW:
No excuse for handling a firearm poorly. NONE!


But there is a risk to hunting Africa to the PH and client. We all know this.

Is not this "risk" what draws all of us to Africa dangerous game hunting?


dale

Does the inherent "risk" absolve you of your responsibility to compensate the injured? The bullet didn't get there on its own. You pulled the trigger, you own the consequences. After all you knew there is a "risk" of shooting someone while hunting, DG in Africa or domestic whitetail, and should be prepared for the consequences.