Ladies and Gentlemen,

There may well come a time when you have to make a decision to shoot or not to shoot. A time when you just don't feel comfortable with the shot. It is not an easy decision to make, especially when the PH is saying, "Shoot, shoot him now."

If you choose not to shoot, you are going to have to endure that long, silent walk back to the hunting car. You are going to have to wonder whether the PH has lost confidence in you.

You are going to start questioning your own abilities and you may start doubting yourself.

Before you get into one of these situations, you are going to have to prepare yourself for how you are going to handle it. You have to remember that it is your decision and your decision alone whether to take the shot. You have an ethical responsability to make a good shot on your prey.

You also have to have properly prepared yourself. You need to be in good physical shape, you need to be intimately familiar with your rifle, you need to be comfortable and experienced with shooting from various field positions, especially shooting sticks.

Most importantly, you need to be mentally prepared. You need to know your own limitations and be willing to live with your decisions.

It's not a pleasant experience to see the disappointment in the PH's face when you pass on a shot. It's not a pleasant experience to pay the $2,000 Trophy Fee for a wounded and lost animal.

Regards,

Terry

I hate to admit it, for a variety of reasons , but was thinking about posting something similar, especially in light of the recent post about the Atchesons.

Most screw-ups occur when the PH has been looking through his binoculars for 5 minutes at "something" and then suddenly turns his head around and starts whispering "Shoot, Shoot."

This is something one should deal with in their plans on a plainsgame hunt and not dangerous game. This is one reason that I can never understand why someone would go to Africa for the first time for dangerous game. It is a completely different experience than hunting in the back forty.

Buffalo are easy to kill when shot well. As seen, again, in the recent posts, when not, then things go to hell. Though easier said then done, it is better to pass up a shot than deal with the possible deadly alternatives.

I can remember three distinct occasions where the PH had me hold my fire, and in every case I should have followed my own judgment and shot the animal instead of dwaddling around. This resulted in three great trophy animals that I wish I had in my collection, but don't.

I have also had the PH tell me to shoot when all that was offered was a very poor shot presentation or else there was not enough time to do anything but throw a "hope & pray" shot in the direction of the animal. Because of those reasons I didn't press the trigger, and told the PH exactly why later.

Most of the time a PH's judgment of when to shoot can be counted upon as correct. But they are human as well and might not see the presentation of the animal from your perspective, might not fully understand what you're capable of pulling off with a rifle, plus they can get excited, frustrate and looking for a fix, or else overly-confident that you're certain to find another or better trophy later.

AD

Terry,

Very sound advice.

I have been fortunate in having hunted with PHs who have never been pushy about any shot.

But, as you well know, sometimes circumstances dictate what one does in the bush. And a PH worth his salts will never rip his client for taking a wrong shot.

Of course, the above does not hold true between friends, as I hardly ever remember Roy saying "good shot" anytime I have killed an animal.

I normally get one of the following "too high! Too low! Too far back! Too far forward!"

Walter, of course, always gets "well done. Very good shot" even if he shoots an animals in the bloody guts!

One day I might write a book about my adventures with Walter and Roy.

Trouble is, no one would believe it!

One day we were following a buffalo bull, and all we cold see of him is his rear end disappearing into the bush.

Roy said "why don't shoot him in the arse?"

Next time we saw the bull, I did just that, as you can see from this photo.



The bull staggered and dropped. We got closer and put a finishing shot into him.

Roy said "that is NOT the right place to shoot a buffalo!"

On another occasion, I shot an impala at what we later measured to be around 420 odd yards. He was facing away from us. The bullet hit him in one of his rear legs, penetrated the whole length of his body, and came out at the junction of the neck and shoulder.

Roy said "you hit him too far back!"

I suppose if there is any advice I might add to what you have said is to have fun. No matter what happens.

Terry,
I would have to talk withthe ph before we get started even with $$$ and discuss that I will take only shots that I feel are acceptable in terms of range, aspect, "lethality" and safety (expecially in regards to passthrough)

We would talk that while this aint walmarts, it is *MY* bill at the end of the day, and my ethics to if i pull the trigger or not.

Of course, the PH is more used to yaahoos who will shot at damn near anything.. so he has to manage somehow... and it is HIS ass (and yours) if you shoot the WRONG animal...

I would explain that him saying shoot means that "sure, anyone could make that shot" and him saying "dont shoot" means DANGER behind/you don't see it...

jeffe

Hunting is a constant compromise between being too fast and too slow. Somewhere in between lies success.

If you are too slow, the animal of your dreams may walk away. But if you are too fast, sooner or later you'll have something on the ground that you did not want - or a lot worse: run off wounded.

None of us will ever get away from this dilemma. But the longer you hunt (or rather, the more you have screwed up in the past ), the more you realize how incredibly much better it is not to shoot, than to have worry about a wounded animal and spend days trying to make up for your mistake.

It is not always easy to stay cool, though. In particular with all the pressure associated with high dollar trophy hunting: dreams, egos, savings, limited time, somebody watching you shoot etc etc.

- mike

My worst experience with this was hunting on a high fenced ranch in TX a few years ago. We opted for a "management buck", a nice 8 or 10 pt at about 130 inches. We hunt over a feeder and up walks a monster at about 160 inches. Instantly, the guide said to my son and I - "Want to upgrade?, Shoot , shoot!!") Well, we did not shoot as we had decided not to spend an additional $2000 for a bigger buck. The guide was quiet, then took us to another stand where we shot our buck.

I was inexperienced with the "hunting business" as the time and came away with a bad taste in my mouth. I decided then and there to shoot what I choose to shoot as I am the one paying for it. We have stopped hunting high fence or ranch areas for specific animals - so this is really not an issue for us any longer. In Africa, we relied on the PH but in the end, it was out decision.

I agree with what has been said re holding off on a shot rather than risking a wounded animal. The PH calling the shot is further complicated because he is looking at the animal through 10x binoculars and you are on the shooting sticks looking through a 4x scope. He may see details of the animal in cover that you can't see. I think it comes dowm to never taking a shot you are not confident in making. As disappointed as the PH is at a passed shot he will be even more pissed off at a wounded animal that is lost or has to be followed up.

Last June I was lucky enough to make my first trip to Africa regarding a business trip in Durban, South Africa. About mid-way through the hunt my PH and I stumbled upon a Nyala that was about 28-29". My PH only said, "Good nyala, shoot!" Followed by shoot over and over again. Needless to say, the sun was setting and I was looking straight into it. I tried for the life of me to find the crosshairs but the only thing I could make out was the legs and feet of the nyala. We changed positions several times but nothing change in the scope. Eventually, the nyala caught our movement and was gone.

While walking back to the truck, we were discussing how the event had unfolded. That day my PH found more respect for me not taking a questionable shot. Later in the week, I finally connected on a lesser nyala about 24". However, my PH also gave me a reduced rate on the nyala I took and also gave me two free days of hunting and a free warthog. His reasons for this was simply he enjoyed hunting with me and the ethics and limitations I set upon myself.

I was lucky in that my lesson in this area didn't result in a wounded animal. A beautiful duiker outlined itself on a ridge above us and my PH didn't hesitate a second as it was an obvious trophy. We were on a rocky shale, I wasn't in a good position and was in some pain from severe tendinitis. Basically, I wasn't prepared but shot anyway and of course missed completely a very straightforward shot. The only complete miss I have ever made. The problem was in my head of course. Duiker wasn't on my mental trophy list, I hesitated, I asked myself a bunch of questions and basically screwed up. I learned a hell of lot about being prepared mentally when it comes to hunting in that experience and have never blindly followed orders from a PH since. Don't get me wrong, the PH was giving the right advice but I should not have shot since I wasn't ready.

The PH can be screaming Shoot, Shoot into your ear, however, it’s your money and your hunt - the PH is nothing more than hired help. Unfortunately, the professional hunting business is nothing more than that - a business. They are not making money unless animals are falling. The daily rate covers the basics but seldom achieves a profitable return for the PH. Trophy fees are where they make their bucks.

It’s their job to sell you animals. In some cases, PHs are selling the client a load of crap based on the poor trophy quality some folks proudly display. I have never had a pushy PH, however, I would set them straight in a few seconds if I ever ran across one. You’re the man behind the trigger and the ultimate decision and responsibility rests on your shoulders. Don’t get pushed into making a bad decision - communication is the key.

Very good point Zero Drift, PH's are working for YOU and it should be your final decision as to what and when to shoot. I had a PH run head on into an elephant deliberatly trying to make it charge and saying "there's your elephant you better shoot him". You should have a discussion with your PH in camp before you ever go out to let him know what your objectives are. There's way too much No-it-all arrogance in the PH community ecpecially in Zim.

Terry,

As usual you're out there pushing the envelope. Good food for thought.....

I consider this a REALLY important mental preparation for Africa hunting. If you're out hunting somewhere alone you make your own decisions and live with them but this is crucial in a situation where you are being guided.

Here's what we constantly reinforce:

1.If you cannot accurately shoot at an animal,
2.If you don't feel comfortable with taking a shot,
3.Question the size of the trophy, or
4.Are confused about which animal to shoot among a herd or several animals,
Don't Shoot!

Granted this doesn't cover every possible scenario but it gets folks thinking.

As others I've a grand story about a really easy set-shot from about 80 meters at a standing (broadside) Blue Wildebeast. Everything's going according to Hoyle until the PH sees a Rowland Ward class animal standing close by and immediaterly has a palsy attack, excitedly whispers (Screams!) in your ear, "Shoot, Shoot, Shoot, at that one, he's huge, a monster, blah blah, at which time the PH's excited state gets conveyed directly to the hunter who becomes over-anxious and blows the shot (yes, completely misses a Blue Wildebeast at that distance!)

I've also seen hunters who start walking off at a different angle from the PH in the direction of where the correct animal was supposed to be shot. This immediately indicates Murphy was present; and that Mr. Stubby, the broke-dick Warthog has just expired as opposed to the one that looked like a Formula 1 steering wheel.

I digress - good topic and food for thought.

Gerry

P.S. Saeed, those are the kinds of bits & pieces you need to get the taxedermist to work on! If you strategically placed that on the coffee table with it's nifty bullet hole - you wouldn't have to worry about conversation openers.

I always remember that is my safari and not that of the PH's.
Kinda like my dad's attitude when he was alive and about hunting on his ranches...if you needed a ranch to hunt on then you should go buy one...he already owned several and he did not want you on his ranches for any reason period.
If I don't think I can make the shot then I am not going to take it no matter how bad someones panties get in a wad. As long as my dollars are good...I don't have to explain anything. I don't like paying for "shot and lost". DRT (dead right there) puts a big old grin on my face.

Gentlemen,
You guys are simply too emotional about all this stuff!

The man behind the rifle is responsible for the results of the pull of the trigger.
On my trip to Zimbabwe early on on the hunt the PH said to me as I was kneeling to make a shot on an Impala with my 9,3 double Chapuis, "That is a long shot hey??" The shot looked good so I took it... and made it. Later I knelt for another shot at an Impala and did not take it even though it was much closer. When the animal was out of view I replied " I did not have a good shot". That set the tone for the trip, when the PH says shoot I take it to mean that is the animal he wants me to shoot IF I CAN MAKE THE SHOT. Twice durring the trip, once on a kudu at a little over 300 yards and later on my Bull Elephant at @ 120 yards as he was just about to walk out of sight the PH said "Can you make the shot?" I replied "Yes" and made the shot. I strive never to take a shot I cannot make.
Do not be pressured into taking a shot you cannot make.

From the angle the PH is at, he can not always see the branches or obstacles that may be in front of you. I really don't like a PH that says "NOW, NOW, SHOOT, SHOOT, SHOOT. I make it clear up front that this is not the way it is going to be. A good PH will respect that request. The only thing worse is when he yells "RUN FOR THE TRUCK"

I have been to RSA three times and once to Mocambique...all with the same outfitter, the same PH, and the same tracker. Before the first trip, I requested a meeting with "die span" the evening of arrival. I emphasized: 1. Die span is alles...this is a team effort, 2. I will not take a bad shot, and I decide if the shot is doable, 3. If you, the PH, do your job, I'll make you look good, 4. My Client Rule No. 1, "Never do anything to embarass your PH." The next morning, during sight-in, you have the opportunity to build PH confidence in your shooting ability. Ergo, weekly practice, every week of the year is mandatory. In inclement weather, shoot a high end air rifle in the garage or basement. Essentially, this is a military operation and should be planned and executed as such Results...of 11 carefully selected trophies, 10 have been one-shot kills, the exception being die kap buffel, which required two shots from a .450 NE dubbel geweer. Remember, you are the client, it's your money, you are in charge (be diplomatic), and..."prior proper planning prevents piss poor performanc!"

Eagle One

DRSS
SCI Life Member
NRA Benefator Member
SASS Life Member

What's with these 6 year-old resurrected posts??? Is someone practicing to be a research librarian?

The first time I hunted Tesseebe I found out how observant and spooky they are. Also found out how hard it is to tell a female from a male. We had spooked a small herd and they were quartering away from us in single file and a nice distance at a very slow pace for them. The PH said to take the 3rd one which I promptly did and the Tesseebe promptly hit the ground. Got up to the dead animal and low and behold it was a female. The PH had meant the 3rd from the REAR and I shot the 3rd from the FRONT. Who was correct.

holy cow - talk about reviving an old thread

Gee, and here I thought Terry Carr was back!

Eagle One-

After 25 posts, why in the world did you want to post your comments on an ancient thread???

This can all be summed up by remembering:
It's your hunt, it's your $$$, It's your finger that pulls the trigger and finally, it will be your trophy forever.

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:
Gee, and here I thought Terry Carr was back!

Whatever happened to him?

I heard he was sick. But that was awhile ago.

You never know who will read a thread (obviously oeopke still do) and get benefit from comments. These forums are tge ultimste "academic outlet" for the shooting world.

Eagle One

i can't believe you can can dredge up 6 year old posts- GET A LIFE!!!

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
i can't believe you can can dredge up 6 year old posts- GET A LIFE!!!

AND btw, WHAT IS AN OEOPKE??

I've written on this subject before, and will say it again. I always tell all my clients: "I'll give you the Green Light to shoot. You, and you alone know your limitations. It's your call to shoot or not as you are the one paying for the possible lost trophy.

some clients are too slow to take the shot when it finally presents itself. The "window of opportunity" on a trophy animal usually does not stay open for very long. (that's why some PHs yell "shoot...shoot!) I learned years ago, that this only makes things much worse. The client must be allowed to remain calm.As long as he knows you have given him the OK to take the animal, there's no need to bark orders.

quote:

Originally posted by TANZ-PH:
I've written on this subject before, and will say it again. I always tell all my clients: "I'll give you the Green Light to shoot. You, and you alone know your limitations. It's your call to shoot or not as you are the one paying for the possible lost trophy.

some clients are too slow to take the shot when it finally presents itself. The "window of opportunity" on a trophy animal usually does not stay open for very long. (that's why some PHs yell "shoot...shoot!) I learned years ago, that this only makes things much worse. The client must be allowed to remain calm.As long as he knows you have given him the OK to take the animal, there's no need to bark orders.

That is exactly the way it should be done. Urging the client to shoot will simply add pressure - of which sufficient is available already.

With regards to resurrecting old threads. If the poster who decides to do so finds the subject of interest and would like to contribute or further discuss the issue, I see absolutely nothing wrong with posting on an old thread again. This particular subject is as relevant today as it was when the thread was first opened. So either this thread or a new one. I don't see how anything could be wrong with that?

- mike

quote:

some clients are too slow to take the shot when it finally presents itself. The "window of opportunity" on a trophy animal usually does not stay open for very long. (that's why some PHs yell "shoot...shoot!) I learned years ago, that this only makes things much worse. The client must be allowed to remain calm.As long as he knows you have given him the OK to take the animal, there's no need to bark orders.

That is the best possible attitude for a PH to have, as far as I'm concerned. It's NEVER wrong for the client to decide that he or she is uncomfortable with the shot and isn't going to shoot, or to take his or her sweet time getting comfortable. If the animal runs off so be it - it's the client's animal. It is ALWAYS wrong to shoot just because the PH is yelling "SHOOT SHOOT SHOOT" because he is afraid the monster three toed gazork is about to run off and we'll never find it again and the client makes a poor shot and wounds the game. Which may run off and never be found again but will now be paid for by the disappointed client and will probably die a terrible death.

I'm not there to make the PH happy. I'm there to hunt, enjoy myself, have a good experience, and take good trophies cleanly. If I shoot when I'm not comfortable and wound and lose an animal, I'm sick about it and not enjoying myself and not getting what I paid for. I try to get on target, get comfortable and shoot as quickly as possible - sometimes I'm not as fast as I would like (or the PH would like), but I can live with that.

My experience was the opposite of what has been described above.

I had spent a great deal of time in desert heat, walking down an elephant from where he had drunk at a waterhole on the otherwise dry Tana River in Kenya. We made a successful approach, and my PH told me to shoot. I have the elephant lined up in my sights, when the PH grabbed my arm and said "Don't shoot!"

I was furious, because my adrenalin was up and I was all ready to fire the shot. It took my quite some time to calm down. The PH told me that he had decided that the ivory was no better than the 70 pounder I already had. When I shot my 94 pounder a few days later, I came to appreciate the PH's intervention.

Of course, if we hadn't happened on the 94 pounder the last day of the hunt, I would have been feeling substantially different.

I have never had a PH reproach me for saying I am not comfortable with the shot. I have been on animals when they advised not what you told me you were looking for. Shot a couple of those anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Saeed,

I remembered that picture after we found my buffalo and I saw where my second shot had gone. Unfortunately I couldn't wait for him to put his tail down so I didn't get the same picture. Farunga had to hold the tail out of the way to get the picture.

After two hours of tracking to catch up with and the six hours of unbelievable tracking skill on a Livingston Eland that did a 180 on us and I gut shot him, my PH buddy said "Great shot Tom....had his head grown ont his arse"