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Quite the interesting possibility! http://www.nhregister.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=16349011...dept_id=566835&rfi=6 | ||
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I hope this works out. I still have a .270 Smith and Wession model 1500 from the three or four years S&W made rifles Perception is reality regardless the truth! Stupid people should not breed DRSS NRA Life Member Owner of USOC Adventure TV | |||
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RM007, Your Smith & Wesson Mod. 1500 is a Howa 1500; a good gun and still available today. No one is opening a plant in the US or anywhere else to build the Mod. 70 and the other models mfg at the New Haven plant until 2008. That is per an agreement that Winchester or USRAC had to sign with the Union when they closed the plant. The combined pressure from the debt service on the pension contract, wages, and healthcare was unrelenting and the unions simply negotiated themselves out of a job. If anyone thinks that unions are still good for this country look at what GM is having to do with Delphi simply to survive... and the union finally had to recognize that this was best for the union employees. The burdened cost of the avg union worker at Delphi was over $75. per hr... >$150K per year. I'm sorry the wage grossly exceeds the commensurate skill level to do the job. Admittedly GM did not keep pace with the product line improvements needed for their vehicles to compete in the global auto mfg economy, but the tipping point was bound to come and it just happened w/ GM. I'm sure the pro-union guys will chime in, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Regards, Brian  Meet "Beauty" - 66 cal., 417 grn patched roundball over 170 grns FFg = ~1950 fps of pure fun! "Scotch Whisky is made from barley and the morning dew on angel's nipples." - Warren Ellis NRA Life Member | |||
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Why a union would have Winchester sign a contract that garuntees that the union' members would have no oportunity to get a similar job in the plant under new owners or operators til at least '08 escapes me. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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It was coersive anti-union busting protection to ensure that Winchester didn't just up and move to South Carolina and open up a non-union shop. Regards, Brian Meet "Beauty" - 66 cal., 417 grn patched roundball over 170 grns FFg = ~1950 fps of pure fun! "Scotch Whisky is made from barley and the morning dew on angel's nipples." - Warren Ellis NRA Life Member | |||
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"...coersive anti-union busting protection ..."  | |||
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brianbo, hell I would buy guns just to help out if Winchester and Colt would leave the union idiots behind and come on down to where they are really welcome. I have never understood why they stay in the anti-gun north either. They could get rid of the union deadweight, come on down here, hire someone who would actually work and be able to turn out a quality rifle at a profit, yep it beats the hell out of me too...........................JJ " venator ferae bestiae et aquae vitae " | |||
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JohnThe Greek, Perhaps you could explain the nature of the agreement that Winchester signed with the union when they closed the plant. The agreement stipulated that Winchester could not open a plant anywhere else and mfg the affected models for a 2 year period. What is the purpose of such an agreement? Regards, Brian Meet "Beauty" - 66 cal., 417 grn patched roundball over 170 grns FFg = ~1950 fps of pure fun! "Scotch Whisky is made from barley and the morning dew on angel's nipples." - Warren Ellis NRA Life Member | |||
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Let me rephrase my statement that you took exception to... "...coersive protection against union busting practices..." There, that's a better way of explaing what I tried to say earlier. Regards, Brian Meet "Beauty" - 66 cal., 417 grn patched roundball over 170 grns FFg = ~1950 fps of pure fun! "Scotch Whisky is made from barley and the morning dew on angel's nipples." - Warren Ellis NRA Life Member | |||
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Proposal for a couse to be offered in MBA school: "How to keep the union out of your company." | |||
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500 grains, Nice thought and I appreciate the sentiment, but I don't see it happening in todays liberal controlled academe. Best thing they could do for MBA's is before they could actually receive their MBA, they'd have to run a business for a few years... especially a small business. Regards, Brian Meet "Beauty" - 66 cal., 417 grn patched roundball over 170 grns FFg = ~1950 fps of pure fun! "Scotch Whisky is made from barley and the morning dew on angel's nipples." - Warren Ellis NRA Life Member | |||
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FYI all of you anti-union scoundrels out there: 1. No union has ever put a company out of business, that has been the mandate of the EPA, OSHA, and in general government, along with corporate greed. 2. Next time someone tells you that union wage/benefit demands harmed a company, ask them to recite the wage/benefits packages the top executives receieve, even if the company shows an actual operating loss for the past 3-10 years. 3. The sole purpose of a corporation is to: a. maximize ROI to the shareholders. b. maximize compensation to the top executive group. 4. The sole purpose of a union is to: maximize the pay and working conditions of the union members. So, we have corporations responsible for sweatshops, a minimum age of six for child workers, sixteen+ hour seven day a week jobs, NO benefits or retirement, slavery( sure didn't have any union representation there) toxic waste discharge into the rivers and lakes of the entire US (what was the Love Canal? What are toxic waste sites?). Hint, these companies also did not institute the child labor laws, the 40-hour work week, health benefits, retirement/pensions, or any of the other things in the trough you have both front feet in, eating away. All of that came from those darn unions, selfish, inconsiderate louts. Why, this is America, we should all ask our bosses if we can work for minimum wage (dang! another of those union giveaways) or a bit less. It just strikes me as the nth degree of hyprocisy of any of you anti's out there accept Holiday pay, overtime pay, health or retirement benefits...those are all union mandated anti-capitolistic things. Tomorrow at work, ask your boss what he would pay you and what benefits your company would voluntarily offer in a govt interference/union free society. Believe me or not, just ask why a new Ford pickup made in Mexico by workers making less than $2.50 an hour and no benefits costs as much as or more than the American Union made models? You short-sighted a$$holes make me sick. What will you do in 5-10 more years when the last manufacturing jobs are moved to a 3rd world country? Enjoy the depression, your grandparents really loved the last one. regards, Rich | |||
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C'mon JohnThe Greek, Please give me your pro-union explanations for the Winchester/union plant closing agreement. Unions are killing business of all kinds in this counrty and they point the finger at everyoine but themselves. Regards, Brian Meet "Beauty" - 66 cal., 417 grn patched roundball over 170 grns FFg = ~1950 fps of pure fun! "Scotch Whisky is made from barley and the morning dew on angel's nipples." - Warren Ellis NRA Life Member | |||
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Simple course.....Treat folks openly, honestly and up front. Caompanys' that have unions do so because they earned them.....(Edward Deming) It's all about power.....and not at all about wages. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Smith and Wesson have some of the most advanced materials and technologies available in the business including the ability to make ultra lightweight and ultra strong guns out of titanium and Scandium-Aluminium alloy. Why would they need to buy an old Winchester plant? If they wanted to, they could build fine ultra light rifles using the materials that they have with their very advanced manufacturing technology. Mehul Kamdar "I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."-- Patrick Henry | |||
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You don't need a college course on keeping unions out of your company. A few phone calls will get you consultants who are masters of of keeping you non union or decertifying a union. Or, you could just look at Wal-Mart. I was a union contractor for over 30 years. I remained a union contractor because it was cost effective. There are many reasons for the demise of Winchester. Management and quality control to name a couple. Dave | |||
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While this really isn't the forum for union discussion, I'll chime in. To Rich, I'd say you have a point, but I don't agree in total. At one point I believe that unions were very necessary, they have served there purpose in some cases and need to go away and leave the companies alone to keep doing business. The non-negotiation of benefits etc is part of the reason the workers of the old Bethlehem Steel no longer have pensions. That company is no longer owned by US citizens, but by a man from India. Great Lakes steel is owned by a Russian firm. The union representatives became just as bad as the executives with the ME mentality. The union officials still have jobs most likely. I don't want to speak out of turn, but when are we going to realize what a fair wage is. When I worked in a shop as unskilled labor in a non-union shop, I was paid a lower wage. (That shop later became union because it needed one because of worker safety) As I gained experience I moved up in pay with my experience and my work ethic. Go to a union plant in the Detroit area and watch how hard people work to not work. They are really getting over on the company right?, and now many of them are out of work and out of a $250,000 plus home because they can't pay for it. The Detroit area has one of the highest bankruptcy rates in the US. The area is a false economy, most of the other businesses can't or won't pay the rates of the automanufacturers. Why should an unskilled worker that has put no extra effort into specialized training in the trades or extra schooling be able to make $80,000 plus benefits a year? How many union workers buy strictly from union suppliers? Most of us bargain shop for the everyday stuff, we don't always know who made it or what country is was made in. I hate that Winchester, an American icon, is done. If the union and/or the workers and the executives had worked together, maybe there would still be a place to work. In this day and age, if you want to keep your house, car, and kids in school, we better learn that we can't have everything? I include myself in that realization also, maybe we might have to work a part time job to go on a hunt(I am). | |||
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No they just put whole industries out of business. | |||
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Rich, I recall the 40 hour week was actually enjoyed by most workers before the law was changed to make it the standard week. Companies had paid specialists to study what work pace maximized output. It was found that working people too long actually lowered productivity enough to make it a losing proposition. Health benefits were a result of WW-II era legislation allowing major companies to effectively bypass the wage/price controls in effect for the war. By offering workers "benefits" that didn't count as wages, they could attract the skilled labor they needed without running afoul of the existing wartime wages laws. Pensions are designed to screw the workers, so I hope the unions don't claim that as a feather in their caps. I don't know the history of child labor laws, but I'll bet it was on the decline long before it became law. Karl | |||
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 on this! This is something that will never be agreed on by both sides! Furthermore, it has absolutely nothing to do with AFRICAN HUNTING, and belongs in the Political forum, where most of the s&it fests find a home!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Well, I would say the 15 BILLION/year tab GM has to put out in union related "compensation" has something to do with it. Sure OSHA and costly unnessesary governenment intrusion also plays a big part, but they are all connected. What Sharpshooter says has validity...If you are living in the 19th century. There is a reason why union membership is on the decline. They are a destructive anti-establishment entity. In my business, the Federal employee union has all but destroyed initiative and prduction. Their motto is " how can I work less but get pad more." Ever try to fire a Fed union employee? Getting a frigging pope elected is easier! jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Jim, if you haven't already, look at Roger's waterbuck....looks pretty nice to this okie and high on my list. | |||
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Idaho Sharpshooter, come out here and I will show you several coal mines and steel plants that the UMWA have shut down. The UMWA leadership ( then Rich Trumpka ) publicly stated he would see the mines and mills closed before the union would go. Guess what happened ? The mines and mills shut down never to reopen, and ole' Rich wenr back to his 5400 square ft manison, which was paid for by union dues, and declared a victory for the " working man ". Meanwhile the recently employed and now unemployed workers filed for chapter 11 and moved off. Yep, what a victory for the working man. Wake up.........................JJ " venator ferae bestiae et aquae vitae " | |||
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I'd say incompetent management, especially at Winchester (for example, where have they been on capital investment? and can you say "Super Short Magnum?"), deserves as much blame as the unions, if not more. And believe me, I do think the unions have shot themselves in the foot (not even a pun) on this one. As for a Smithchester Model 70, hell, yes, I'd buy one! Simth already makes a damn fine 1911 Colt! Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Kurick;I think union's can at times be a necessary evil but sometimes the cure turns out to be worse than the problem.Also the union excecs are at least as bad at robbing the working man as the ceo's. The best system is what we use in the fishing industry, a percentage of the money produced. This spreads the risk and most importantly gives real incentive do do your job well. The whole buisness becomes a joint venture although greed can still play a part however any smart boat owner will pay a percentage based on your skill level and value to the operation... you get payed what you are worth if you dont there is always a boat who needs good people. I typicaly will have crew I pay twice as much than another for the same job simply because he is worth it. It is kind of the opposite of the way the government works.. now thats probably a good game plan to follow for most anything | |||
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Remington allegedly can't pay their electric bills, Winchester turning off the "OPEN" sign for factory making their most popular lines but still making the SX-1 rifle and Colt can't decide if they want to sell guns to private individuals or not. Remington is selling Russian doubles and Yugo Mausers  SIG and Smith and Wesson are making 1911's, S&W now makes an AR15 clone. Beretta is making Single Action Army revolvers. Guess there's not reason to not buy M94's and M70's from Smith & Wesson. Hopefully if S&W take up production, they'll make the same model for years and not change the specs like they have in past with the semiauto pistols. | |||
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The reason you see the unions moving into state federal and local govt employees is because they already ruined the private sector. | |||
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If you wonder where the good jobs went____ Ask the union president!!! Corporate profit and those that assist it are business initiatives. Paying 40-80 dollars an hour is worker greed and just cost those at Winchester their job probably forever. REAL SMART PLAN! square shooter | |||
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I can see a bit of both sides here. Most CEOs are way overpaid; they certainly incur little or no risk if the company tanks (huge severence packages help them here). "The Jungle," written by Upton Sinclair, was a huge catalyst that helped form unions. Sinclair was a socialist and an educator (no surprise there, huh?). Teddy R. actually met with Sinclair, and while he didn't agreee with his socialist beliefs, did quite a bit to address the problems in the meat packing industry exposed by Sinclair's novel. If Sinclair hadn't been an activist, reform would not have come so quickly. Is it greedy for a guy to want to make 100K when he sees a CEO making millions? Is it surprising the rank and file are pissed when they see Dennis K from Tyco spending a million bucks from the company coffers for his wife's birthday party? I don't think so. I will never have union labor, but then again, my intention is to take care of people, give them equity, etc. Finally, I would be shocked if Mexican auto plant employees make 2.50/hr. I spoke with a woman from Mexico last night about some business ideas. We talked about what i pay my guys in Columbia, SA and she said you could never hire folks in Mexico for that amount, and it was a lot higher than 2.5/hr. My brother is a union plumber who works hard. I am trying to get him to consider starting his own business; I will even help fund it. But at the end of the day, it is awfully hard to walk away from a "good" paying job and take on risk. But if you really want to get ahead in life, you need to take on risk. | |||
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I worked in a shop with 200 people where the union stood staunch on "No Redundancies, we want our jobs" all that time the union president was negotiating his own redundancy with the company,then took the money and ran. my message to unions:  ,the only time I would not on them, is if they were on fire. They are capatilists in sheeps clothing. | |||
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