I read through this thread this AM and spoke to Adam. This is what we actually know from folks that are physically involved in the ON-GOING regoiations over the proposed fee increases. TAHOA at this time is asking all TAHOA and non TAHOA members to not go to court. Negotiation with the government are still in progress and they are optomistic about a compromise that everybody can live with.

For any of us here Stateside to speculate about the outcome or long term continuation of hunting in Tanzania is irresponsible until this issue is resolved.

Guys! Chill out. There are no concrete answers at this time.

Mark

Mr Young,

I understand and respect your stance but there are people on this forum that have spent large sums of money allready and more people with hunt dates approaching and no answers. It is no way irresponsible for those individuals to express thier concerns. Especially when you have a government official there claiming he will upcharge allready completed hunts in 2007. If you purchased a vehicle and the car manufacturer says they can hit you for more money after the sale no one would expect you to sit quietly while the "powers that be" negotiate for your purchasing rights. I realize this is one really messed up situation within the hunting business. Hell I would have to say this is the largest problem since Kenya closed, but a lot of peoples money is on the line and all they have been provided with is a gamble. I understand some people are optimists and some are forever pessimists, but when thier money is on the line and answers aren't materializing speculation is not irresponsible. I wish all involved the best of luck in these trying times and I hope a strong hunting industry continues in TZ.

Ben,

I'm not saying people should not be upset by the continuing nebulous nature of the possible fee increases in Tanzania but speculation off the top of people's heads is dangerous.

What happens with speculation is it soon turns into fact and people start believing it as truth particularly on the internet. Now you have rumors(facts)flying about and people are getting all kinds of upset unecesarily. All I'm saying is don't freak out because nothing is set in stone about the possible increases yet.

Mark

Wendall

Wait until after SCI and see how the bookings stack up. There are many more millionaire African hunters than hunts. The 7 day suitcase PH's will undoubltedly go by the wayside but the major outfits that control thier hunting blocks will manage to book them.

It is sad for the guys that struggle to pay for the hunt as these are the guys that appreciate it the most but their are many more guys like Saeed who spend hundreds of thousands on a hunt that will fill in.

quote:

Originally posted by Gator1:
Wendall

Wait until after SCI and see how the bookings stack up. There are many more millionaire African hunters than hunts. The 7 day suitcase PH's will undoubltedly go by the wayside but the major outfits that control thier hunting blocks will manage to book them.

It is sad for the guys that struggle to pay for the hunt as these are the guys that appreciate it the most but their are many more guys like Saeed who spend hundreds of thousands on a hunt that will fill in.

IMO, that last paragraph is total BS. I know plenty of folks who make/made those 21 day hunts that worked their butts off for several years to pay the bill. They appreciate it just as much as anyone else. I know because I had to and I treasured every moment of every day I was there.

I disagree with the idea that millionaires will step in to replace those who leave TZ. If they are not hunting there now why would they start? Some of the millionaires who do hunt there regularly have already told us they would not return as they don't like the system with rate increases after the fact.

I'm an optimist but let's be realistic. Is it over? Certainly not but it's in bad shape. I am not able to do a 21 day full bag hunt but I would have liked to do the 7-10 day buff with Thompsons and Grants gazelle that I can't get elsewhere. I am representative of hundreds of like minded hunters and the millionaires can't replace the average guys like us unless you want to turn it into a private preserve with the PHs becoming babysitters.

To keep it in perspective, I'm one of the guys who will continue going to Zim as long as I have the option available while others won't touch Zim. It's an apples and oranges comparison but I'm all in favor of hunting continuing everywhere to be clear about it.

I agree with Yukon here. I have had the great fortune to hunt Tanzania in 2003 and 2006 for full bag. I can no longer or am not willing to afford 2007 rates before the hikes. There is a limit to all this. My understanding from the couple of safari operators I have known is the 21 day guys pay for the expenses and the buff hunters 7-10 guys like myself represent the profit. Loved Tanzania, but I am probably through there. Zim ain't so bad.

Jeff

Tanz. was marginal for me before this happened. I will still go, but only with a camera and spend far, far less money. Dr. Watson is dead on.

quote:

Originally posted by John S:

quote:

Originally posted by Gator1:
Wendall

Wait until after SCI and see how the bookings stack up. There are many more millionaire African hunters than hunts. The 7 day suitcase PH's will undoubtedly go by the wayside but the major outfits that control their hunting blocks will manage to book them.

It is sad for the guys that struggle to pay for the hunt as these are the guys that appreciate it the most but their are many more guys like Saeed who spend hundreds of thousands on a hunt that will fill in.

IMO, that last paragraph is total BS. I know plenty of folks who make/made those 21 day hunts that worked their butts off for several years to pay the bill. They appreciate it just as much as anyone else. I know because I had to and I treasured every moment of every day I was there.

You missed my point. The people who sacrifice the most appreciate it the most. As yourself.

I remember when you could buy a 10 day Buff hunt in Zambia for $2700 including airfare and trophy fee.

When the price jumped to $7000 you should of heard people scream. Dire results predicted but now most would love a $7000 Buff hunt in Zambia.

In 2-3 years things will be the same as now only another segment of hunters will be priced out.

But Tanz will still be booked and hunters will still be going there.

Now that lion hunting has been closed in Botswana, does anybody want to place a bet about these hiked fees not sticking for at least 2008? Good Lord what a mess.

Jeff

Gator-
I don't completely agree with your comments, simply because it paints all wealthy hunters with the same brush. I know and have hunted with several wealthy gentlemen who can and do easily come up with the coin necessary for a full bag 21 or 28 hunt...but every one of them seemed to savor the time spent just as much as I did. In fact, I think in some ways they enjoyed it more simply because they live a very pressure packed, hectic life. Time spent away from all of that while on safari gives them a much needed break from their clients, patients, cell phones and whatnot. They also are very accomplished, driven hunters and truly enjoyed the adventures and challenges. For a couple of them, the lost revenues from being gone were greater than the price of the safari! To say that because they are easily able to afford the hunt they don't enjoy or cherish the time as much as someone of lesser means is just not correct for many folks. They have to sacrifice too, possibly not in saving up the money but in other ways that put hardships on them.

No matter what happens and no one knows what the outcome will be. I don't personally think it will change but it could..

Howeve all is not lost for those that think this is the crowning blow on their going to Tanzania to hunt buffalo if you ready to re-access you situation..

There are hunts that allow 2 hunters to share one license on a 7 day Safari and those hunts will run about $10,000 for each hunter and you can get one buffalo each and share the 5 head of plainsgame for reasonable trophy fees. So for those that are serious Tanzania will still be available if you really want to go.

Ray, wasn't it just the other day when you were poo-pooing that very thing?

Let these guys change the prices prospectively. No problem. We can all decide if we want to go or not.

In 2006, they closed lion hunting for a short period of time while people were in the field. Now they retroactively change prices.

This just isn't workable from a consumer standpoint. We don't know if we can hunt the animals for which we contracted and at the price that we contracted.

Can you imagine going to a homebuilder and putting up a deposit while they have the ability to unilaterally change the price after the fact. Hell no, we would never do it.

I have had it with the uncertainty in that country. These safaris are my vacation. They are adding stress to my vacations. I am not going back.

I'm not bitching about the prices (which I think are insane). It is the retroactive nature of the change that is a problem to me.

Actually the situation is not too complicated as I see it ...

Most ALL hunters going to Africa will we would hope have a (simple basic binding itemised contract document) which will have been provided by the outfitter/agent/ or whomever you arranged the hunt with. If you accepted the offer at an agreed price then the service provider will have to carry the can for any (unilateral) prices increases as I see it. All this should have been clearly defined/agreed in a contract.

If anyone goes to Africa or anywhere for that matter without an agreed/accepted contract document then I dont have a lot of sympathy for them, as it is not like in the old times when people used to agree upon a handshake.

I cant see how any Outfitter operating a professional company can just pass on costs to the hunter, unless of course there is/was a clause within the contract with price increase caveats.

This sort of thing to a lesser degree occurs often in Africa where the government or wildlife people just slap on an increase in mid stream. Oufitters opearating in Africa need to cover their backsides and be prepared for the worst case scenario

Good hunting

Peter

Cheers, Peter

Peter,

Any outfitter who DOES NOT have a clause about unexpected fee hikes beyond their control is a clown IMO

Most clients would understand this as one expects sudden increases to be sensible and justifiable. Not in this case where increases were unacceptably high and unjustifiably made retroactive!

Are there any statistics availible detailing total Tanzania quotas and totals of percentage used and paid? I think those of you in the industry could use those stats and make some "seat of the pants" predictions based on interactions with your client base.

Oops. I made a boo-boo then left town and let it fester.

My post of 5 or 6 days ago was not saying that I thought these proposed fees would stick. My post was what would happen if the proposed fees did stick.

As Mark said, nothing is in concrete yet. Nobody get too upset just yet.

Luckily, I am good friends with the executive represntative for TAHOA. He has been giving me updats periodically.

Peter,

I've never hunted anywhere in Africa where the safari operator was willing to provide a contract allowing that he would eat government increases. I would think this would be suicidal for any operator effected by government fees. The operator's daily fees can be guaranteed but nothing else to my knowledge. Unfortunately Tanzania has a great many government fees in addition to the operator's daily fees.

Mark