The lioness charges at the truck after being shot.The guy says in the video description that the lioness was not a target but shooting it was necessary!Something is not right here or am I missing something? Thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf2LcrOzY8c



Best-
Locksley,R.

you're sure not missing anything.

SHE was to close to the road. So shot her so she would not get hit by a truck.

Mike

'We were alerted by the growl as we slowly drove through long grass. As my long time PH friend, Gene Small, later said "When a lion's tail moves that way, it's coming no matter what.'

What crap, they could have just driven on by....Lionesses hardly ever follow through with a charge when they are not wounded. If this dimwit PH knew anything about lions, he would have known she was warning them to foxtrot oscar, to back off from that invisible line...I have experienced a couple of much more determined warnings, when they actually came, several times in quick succession. Once we were on foot, once in the vehicle. Fortunately the PHs I worked with knew what was going on, and controlled retreats averted needless killings. Can anyone tell me of an instance when an unwounded lioness had to be shot in self defence during the daytime? If someone can, I will undoubtedly argue that it was not necessary. I have pictures of a serious lioness MOCK charge, and the last pictures I took when she was anchoring at under ten yards...This lioness followed through because that dweet in the truck shot her. This shit on youtube clearly illustrates everything that is wrong with hunting, and why we are always on the back foot as hunters. Do it if you want, but please don't advertise your 'brave' act all over the internet, for the sake of hunting in general. Clowns disguised as hunters. Nothing more to say right now

David...

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:
Can anyone tell me of an instance when an unwounded lioness had to be shot in self defence during the daytime? If someone can, I will undoubtedly argue that it was not necessary.

David, it has happened to me, lioness mock charged, turned, ran off a few paces, turned again and came again, this time for real, stopping after a shot at less than 6 paces.

I believe the video was of a canned cat...

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:
Can anyone tell me of an instance when an unwounded lioness had to be shot in self defence during the daytime? If someone can, I will undoubtedly argue that it was not necessary.

David, it has happened to me, lioness mock charged, turned, ran off a few paces, turned again and came again, this time for real, stopping after a shot at less than 6 paces.

I believe the video was of a canned cat...

Okay Karl, then I stand corrected, but the stats say it very seldom happens, I have never heard of an instance until now. But your experience backs your words and if you say it was so then I do not doubt it. Nothing wrong with her? Not in bad condition or injured before she came? Just interested..

And the fact remains that these guys in the truck could have just driven past...

I have to wonder if there is more to this than they said. Perhaps sick or injured. They certainly gave no indication of any specifics.

David: I laughed my backside off over the "foxtrot oscar" comment.

Larry, glad you got a chuckle from my rant....Damn, that's all I needed - my theory gunned down immediately be highly experienced PH Karl Stumpfe! And I thought he was my buddy! I don't think those guys in the truck could use any excuse like it was sick or injured because even if it was, they could have driven on by....and no mention of anything like that in the write-up - surely they would have mentioned it if something was wrong with the cat? I personally think they believe they had a great hunt - diesel stalking at its finest! By the way, i didn't see your post in the sullivan thread till it was too late to respond...Very funny, I think it would be a great idea to buy Jonny a ticket to sullies 'how to kill' show. That would get him very excited!!

Cheers larry, I hope you and yours are well and in good health. Hope to bump into you again one day soon.

Dave

David:

I have to admit that I was surprised that the Sullivan comment didn't get a rise out of you. I though it was hysterical .

You may well be right about the cat. I wonder what the "had to shoot it" comment means.

I leave for Sango on the 29th.

David, she had 3 sub adult cubs with her, around 16 months old if I had to take a guess. ill admit, I think the chances of an unwounded, un harrassed female following thorugh on a charge are pretty slim though, so I did not say that to discredit your post, just to show that we should never use the word never... LOL I really liked that post about the ticket to send your brother to Sully school though...

Larry,

The Sullivan comment was hysterical, make no mistake. But the thread had moved on some by the time I noticed it, and I didn't want anyone to think I was simply sniping at Markus Sullivainus and accuse me of being jealous or something equally as silly...

From what I can gather, the 'had to shoot it' comments come from the tail swishing/snarling. That is the only reason I can see for why they thought it needed to be shot. Ridiculous. Anyway, there was something wrong with this lioness - why was it on its own? I certainly cannot see if it is old/in bad shape, maybe someone else can. Sure, you may come across the odd lone female in okay condition, but do you really? Cubs? Doubtful...Maybe it had a headache from the truck ride/drugs - merely another possibility, don't get worked up lads...

Karl, no worries my friend, I don't feel like you discredited my post in any way, rather I feel like I have learned something. You are correct of course, I should never use the word never and I will put effort into never doing so again! Anyway, I'm not as blinkered as to believe that none of my postings/opinions will be discredited. I learn a lot from this forum, and one thing I have learned is that there are a lot of guys out there with a heap more experience than me, in all departments.

Cheers my friends, Larry we may just meet up when you're out here...Karl, hope to catch up soon, good crowd and humor flowing here at the Ultimate tonight!!

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:
David, she had 3 sub adult cubs with her, around 16 months old if I had to take a guess. ill admit, I think the chances of an unwounded, un harrassed female following thorugh on a charge are pretty slim though, so I did not say that to discredit your post, just to show that we should never use the word never... LOL I really liked that post about the ticket to send your brother to Sully school though...

Karl, the cubs in the equation says a lot. They do get quite excited when they have cubs, understandably. In one of the instances I was on the receiving end, the lioness also had cubs. She did come frighteningly close, very angry. I will never forget the sound she made. I was better off than the other guys though, because through my camera lens it's like watching a movie... Better off, that is, until the gamescout bolted and bulldozed his way over me in his haste to depart the scene...

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:
Can anyone tell me of an instance when an unwounded lioness had to be shot in self defence during the daytime? If someone can, I will undoubtedly argue that it was not necessary.

David, it has happened to me, lioness mock charged, turned, ran off a few paces, turned again and came again, this time for real, stopping after a shot at less than 6 paces.

I believe the video was of a canned cat...

Why is it that every time a lion is shot on film someone thinks it must be a "CANNED LION"?

I'm not saying that this was an upstanding kill but I doubt it was CANNED! Because no film was shown before we first see the lioness in the grass she may have simply been sitting there as the vehicle passed, but where she was when the film started may have been the end of a charge which would have been a mock charge or she wouldn't have stopped. I have an idea that it was where she stopped, and because the people were scared the guy went ahead an shot her, turning it into a real charge! He was useing a drilling and the rifle barrel may have been a small caliber as well. At that range a REAL lion rifle would have flattened her!

A stupid waste of a healthy lioness, and a young one at that, IMO!

Okay, young lioness, good - progress. I don't really have an issue with whether the hunt was canned or not - have been torn in two by the canned issue for as long as it's been an issue...But I do think those guys in the truck are pussies, not hunters.

Mac, i said it's a canned cat because the PH's refernced below the video are not known to hunt areas that have wild cats IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:
Mac, i said it's a canned cat because the PH's refernced below the video are not known to hunt areas that have wild cats IMO.

Okay good, more progress....

i've been charged by both lion and lioness a time or two while in the truck. we had to step on the gas to get away

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:
Can anyone tell me of an instance when an unwounded lioness had to be shot in self defence during the daytime? If someone can, I will undoubtedly argue that it was not necessary.

David, it has happened to me, lioness mock charged, turned, ran off a few paces, turned again and came again, this time for real, stopping after a shot at less than 6 paces.

I believe the video was of a canned cat...

Why is it that every time a lion is shot on film someone thinks it must be a "CANNED LION"?

I'm not saying that this was an upstanding kill but I doubt it was CANNED! Because no film was shown before we first see the lioness in the grass she may have simply been sitting there as the vehicle passed, but where she was when the film started may have been the end of a charge which would have been a mock charge or she wouldn't have stopped. I have an idea that it was where she stopped, and because the people were scared the guy went ahead an shot her, turning it into a real charge! He was useing a drilling and the rifle barrel may have been a small caliber as well. At that range a REAL lion rifle would have flattened her!

A stupid waste of a healthy lioness, and a young one at that, IMO!

Mac - The outfitter operates in SA, the video and his website clearly say so, and clearly show SA terrain. My $10K bet, its a high-fence/canned lion hunt!

Shooting a lion in such a manner, and worse, putting it on YouTube, pathetic!!!!!!!!!!

He should have shot it in the head.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
He should have shot it in the head.

Agree

Shows a chest shot isn't going to stop a charging Lion.

.

quote:

My $10K bet, its a high-fence/canned lion hunt!

What the heck, I've got $10k burning a hole in my pocket.

This video is a few years old and I believe has been discussed before.

I wonder if it is the owner of GunsInternational.com posting that crap. If you read the story it is even worse than the video.

I left a comment but it requires review to be posted.

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:
Can anyone tell me of an instance when an unwounded lioness had to be shot in self defence during the daytime? If someone can, I will undoubtedly argue that it was not necessary.

David, it has happened to me, lioness mock charged, turned, ran off a few paces, turned again and came again, this time for real, stopping after a shot at less than 6 paces.

I believe the video was of a canned cat...

David is correct and cats have been shot whilst in the process of mock charging. However 6 paces is a little too close for comfort.

All mock charges I have experienced from both Elephant and Lion have been both overly dramatic and noisy. I suspect that if a unwouded Lioness came for you it would be fast and silent.

That lion was not charging, look at the body language. And she most certainly was not a threat to anyone before the first shot was fired.

If they are willing to lie about the setup bringing about the "dangerous lion" then you can be sure the whole thing is a publicity stunt. Read the story punting guns international to go with it. That lion was the target through and through. Why else was the PH on the back of the truck filming when a "surprise" self defense incident occurred
I call bullshit to the whole lot and hope that Eugene Small Prick gets no business from this site as a result.

ES Safaris Black Marked for good.

quote:

Originally posted by African Hunters Quest:
That lion was not charging, look at the body language. And she most certainly was not a threat to anyone before the first shot was fired.

Agreed! Like Andrew says, lots of noise and likely nothing more. She was probably growling, simply as a warning.

Regardless of the unknown facts, the huge problem here is shooting a lioness from the top of the truck (an un-wounded one), and then putting it on YouTube for the world to see!

My favorite quote from the story!

"Another P.H. fired and hit the side rail of the truck (hear the metallic ping on the video) at the last moment."

quote:

and then putting it on YouTube for the world to see! Mad

The actions of a first class ass.

The whole thing stinks to high heaven.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
My favorite quote from the story!

"Another P.H. fired and hit the side rail of the truck (hear the metallic ping on the video) at the last moment."

You misunderstand Aaron. By "P.H.", I think he meant "Pecker-Head".

Do a search for E S Safaris. Under the tribute link they have a picture of a guy holding a lion cub. Let's see South Africa, lion cubs to take pictures with do the math. I think this was nothing more than a stunt to use his fancy rifle he goes on and on about. He was too much of a pussy to get out of the truck though.

During the charge, somebody swore in French "Oh Putain" = Oh Shit

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
The whole thing stinks to high heaven.

465H&H

Best you can do mate is go back to the site and state your displeasure as a hunter.

I will.

I agree with you all.

Not to hijack the thread but did you see any of other clips available at the end of the clip in question? There is one about training for a lion charge. It is very interesting.

It looks like he shoots her with a shotgun.

I hope the real moral issue here is that they uneccesarily shot a lioness, not the fact that they fired from a vehicle.
If we want to debate shooting from a vehicle, let's also discuss methods like baits,blinds and dogs for leopard,.. and what distance buff and elephants should be shot at.
Is someone also a pussy for following up a wounded cat from a vehicle, or is the safety of members of the hunting party more important?

We have been charged by unwounded lionesses on several occasions.

Only once we had to shoot one.
We really did not have to shoot her, but, as a lioness was in our quota, that was a good opportunity to bag one.

We followed them for a while, and found them lying in the shade of a tree. All ran off, except a male, which did not know what was happening, and was sitting on his hind legs. I shot him in the neck, and he dropped dead.

Then a lioness came running back growling straight at us. She stopped just before we had to fire to protect ourselves.

She then went and stood by the dead lion. We decided to shoot her, and that was that.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
I hope the real moral issue here is that they uneccesarily shot a lioness, not the fact that they fired from a vehicle.
If we want to debate shooting from a vehicle, let's also discuss methods like baits,blinds and dogs for leopard,.. and what distance buff and elephants should be shot at.
Is someone also a pussy for following up a wounded cat from a vehicle, or is the safety of members of the hunting party more important?

Wounded/unwounded lioness - chalk/cheese

I don't really know how you can compare those two creatures/situations because they are poles apart.
Many hunters have followed wounded cats in the long grass with a vehicle, very clever plan. Hopefully not many have potted unwounded cats in a drive by shooting such as this.

Baits, blinds, hounds - yet again, you cannot compare. You say it's my opinion? Fine, just don't expect me to condone this kind of shoot. It all sucks - and yes the fact that they fired from the vehicle is a big issue. Every hunter I know would shake his head sadly at this video clip.

Trying to relate this to how far one should shoot a buffalo/elephant from? Give us a break...Shoot it from however far you like, nobody cares, but dig deep, find some energy and try and clamber from the truck before you do. And if you can't find the energy to do so, please don't post your shoot all over the internet.

Ja, we sure do need a code...

quote:

Trying to relate this to how far one should shoot a buffalo/elephant from? Give us a break...Shoot it from however far you like, nobody cares, but dig deep, find some energy and try and clamber from the truck before you do...

apparently some do care, and have expressed issue with how far way some folk shoot ele and buff. Some consider it simply shooting,rather than skilled or honourable hunting so to speak. Some believe one is missing out on the true dangerous game challenge/experience....without such one cannot come onto hunting sites like AR and share/entertain with their description of a dramatic close encounter.

Its not really about comparing to "shooting lion from a vehicle", but simply to demonstrate there is often someone who has issue with how any number of things are done in the field.

If your happy with someone who at least gets out/off a vehicle to take a lion,... Would you also be happy with someone getting out of a helicopter to shoot a Himalayan Tahr they spotted while doing a fly over of a valley?...some people have issue with those who have spotted game from the air and land in relatively convenient proximity to allow the hunter/shooter to take his quarry....or does he have to trudge up and down the slopes for days on end hoping he will see something from the ground, simply to please anothers concept of what ethical hunting should constitute?

Why not go to Africa and simply be content with the results you achieve using your own personal standard of hunting/shooting ethics, and leave others to their own methods and conscience.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Trying to relate this to how far one should shoot a buffalo/elephant from? Give us a break...Shoot it from however far you like, nobody cares, but dig deep, find some energy and try and clamber from the truck before you do...

apparently some do care, and have issue with how far way some folk shoot ele and buff. Some consider it simply shooting not skilled or honourable hunting so to speak.
its not really about comparing to "shooting lion from a vehicle", but simply to demonstrate there is often someone who has issue with how any number of things are done in the field.
If your happy with someone who at least gets out/off a vehicle to take a lion,... Would you also be happy with someone getting out of a helicopter to shoot a Himalayan Tahr they spotted while doing a fly over of a valley?...some people have issue with those who spot game from the air and fly into convenient proximity to land and allow the hunter/shooter to take his quarry.

I have no opinion on Himalayan hunting because I have no idea what goes on there. But I don't think I'd have any problem with spot, disembark and stalk, wherever it may be, whatever the quarry may be...Your question does bring up a relevant point - the reason why we are so weak as a body is because there are childish guys who will make an issue over how far another fellow shoots his buffalo from...Don't for one minute think that everyone here is pro hunting, there are lots of imposters lurking here.

Shooting an unwounded lion from a truck is wrong, it is unprincipled, period. I think the opinion posted by other hunters on this thread says it all. As I keep saying, I believe the majority of us know inherently what is right and wrong. I knew it was wrong to shoot a lion from the back of a truck when I was at junior school. I have shot hundreds of impala at night from a truck, but I was not hunting. I have followed a wounded leopard with other hunters through long grass in a truck - yes, safety does come first. But cruising along the road in a truck 'looking' for a lion to shoot from said truck? That is not hunting.

Of course I have my own opinions, as does everyone else, but surely we are mature enough to work out our differences and present a united front for the good of hunting? We all love doing it, being out there, why don't we defend it as best we can?

Dave