The original loading of the 458 Win Mag should never of had a 500gr bullet to begin with.

The 450 Nitro's all used a 480 gr.

Winchester went with the 500 gr because it had a "better ring to it".

Winchester just did not get it right in the beginning.

However with todays bullets and todays powders the 458 can do the job on DG.

quote:

Yes, I know a lot of folks that like it, some are very good friends and business partners, and I have no problem with what they choose, I just don't happen to agree.

What can I say some guys don't like p#$$Y!!!

Obviously the .458WM is a great ctg. or it wouldn't even be discussed. As far as a compression load goes, howabout the .338 and h4831, it is compressed, ever had a squibb round? Probably not. Full case loads are the norm for most accurate rounds. None the less I also shoot the Lott and at .458WM velocities as an insurance factor in the extreme heat of the Tropics. That way I can have it both ways. Dr.C

Despite its faults the 458 WM has a recoil level that most of us occasional users can tolerate yet it shoots a 500 gr. bullet with velocities similar to a 470NE.

That is what we like about it.

"I'm taking my .458 for elephant this August, and there is no other bolt action round I feel more comfortable shooting. It has just the right amount of energy to kill anything on the planet, and I can shoot it all day long.

Mark Jackson"

Mark,

You will be just fine....My PH shot a problem cow Ele a month ago or so with a .458. Used a barnes .400 gr monolithic solid on a frontal brain shot....Dropped her at 4 yards...They forund the projectile 4 inches from her anus!

I have long contended that the only problem with the .458 Win was the original factory loadings. After the handloaders got ahold of it all was / is fine with this caliber.

Good luck on your hunt!

JW

Mark: The only other thing you'll need besides the .458WM are some cigars to ward off the skeeters.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Still, the Lott is to the Win. Mag. as the .357 Mag. is to the .38 Spl., and who buys a .38 these days except in a snubbie?

Is it really? Or more like a 460 S&W to a 454 Casull? I honestly don't know myself, but I know the charts show the 1-shot stop on humans of a 38 Special is pathetic and the 357 Mag is outstanding. This was known and addressed early on with the 38-44 loadings and 38 HV loads for cops.

The issue with the 458 appears to be elephant heads, and it could be that the little bit more you get from a Lott at reliable pressures is really required to get the job done and not just nice to have. The fact that it was wildcatted for so long seems to back that up. In fact, the 3†from SA seems to indicate Lott’s attempt was not bold enough.

This is obviously a very different game than us dorks from America usually call hunting. But forgive us if we're weary about every new round from big corporate and the following frenzy that says yesterdays gun is only good for tomato stakes. In the last 10 years we’ve had to justify the 300 Weatherby to the 300 RUM, the 270 Win to the WSM, the 22-250 to the 204 and now the H&H to the 375 Ruger. It’s all the more difficult to follow when PH’s and gun writers say the 375 H&H is what tourist hunters should bring. Is the 375 H&H really a better elephant and Cape buff gun than the 458 Win Mag? Or does the average tourist just not belong in Africa to begin with?

quote:

Mark: The only other thing you'll need besides the .458WM are some cigars to ward off the skeeters.

Dang Right!

quote:

The issue with the 458 appears to be elephant heads, and it could be that the little bit more you get from a Lott at reliable pressures is really required to get the job done and not just nice to have. The fact that it was wildcatted for so long seems to back that up. In fact, the 3†from SA seems to indicate Lott’s attempt was not bold enough.

I've seen 2 PHs carry the .450 Ackley (which will also shoot .458 Win.) and they were very pleased with its performance.

I have the .460 G&A which starts as .404 Basic and drives a 500 grainer at plus 2500 fps. We jokingly call it the "Lott improved" although it doesn't use a belted case.

JW

Can't speak about the .458 WM, but definitely can about the .458 Lott. If you can load the .458 WM to match the Lott, then it's up to anything that roams the planet ..... just my experience.

stainless: Isn't it nice to have so many choices to investigate for yourself? Really what is best for you,in your mind, is what is actually best, isn't it? The rest of this is just fun and somewhat educational. Dr.C

JPK,
Do some reading? sometimes I think you read too much, I go by my experience over the last 60 years, it may disagree with you, and that upsets you apparantly, but that is my opinnion based on my experience and that is what I go by.

I respect the opinnion of others on this board such as .458, NE 450 and others who are my good friends and who like the .458, but that does not mean I have to jump out my ass to agree. Surely you have some better advise to offer, other than some snide remarks.

I don't like the .458, I see no reason not to punch it out to a Lott, and shoot it 2150 to 2200 FPS at very low pressure indeed..Now what is the problem you have with that, is it just too simple to grasp and why do you think that is balony. Maybe your taking these conversations a little too seriously.

I do not want to start a Hatfield/ McCoy fued here.

All I am trying to say is there are a lot of 458 Win Mags out there. With proper bullets and powder thay can make a good DG gun.

Baised on my results with my 450 No2 on eland, wildebest, giraffe, cape buff, and elephant with 480gr Woodleigh Softs and Solids, 500gr Swift A Frames, and 450gr North Fork Cup Points, and Flat Point Solids, if I was loading for a 458 Win Mag I would use the 450gr North Fork soft and the 450gr North Fork Cup and Flat Point, solids [if my rifle would feed them], at @ 2200 to 2250, with out worry.

If my rifle would not feed the NF Solids I would use 480 Woodleigh Solids.

If I was buying a new gun today I would get a 458 Lott.

Unless I found a 458 double like JPK,s....
It is NICE.

quote:

if I was loading for a 458 Win Mag I would use the 450gr North Fork soft and the 450gr North Fork Cup and Flat Point, solids [if my rifle would feed them], at @ 2200 to 2250, with out worry.

And that is very very easy to accomplish for any reloader with todays powders with out compaction.

quote:

All I am trying to say is there are a lot of 458 Win Mags out there. With proper bullets and powder thay can make a good DG gun.

And that folks, sums it up!

JW

On the other hand, those who don't like the 458 WinMag seem to love the 416 RemMag. Having reloaded that round for several guys who didn't, I found that the 416Rem didn't seem to operate at less than max. Almost all were at "max" to get what theses guys wanted. Now, talk of powder compression or "compaction."

I have never said the .458 was not a viable caliber or that it wasn't an effective round. What I have said is it was a poorly designed cartridge and should have been on a full length case, that is a fact, wether you accept it or not is your choice. The Africans figured it out and they have a nice 3 inch .458 that operates without compaction. I just don't care for the .458, never have and never will, I prefer the Lott loaded down.

As to the 416 Rem or .375 I have never experienced any compaction with either and I shoot it at about 2350 to 2400 FPS with either RL-15 or IMR-4064.

As to the post about the .375 and poor bullets, that is a fact, poor bullets were the norm back in those days, I shot many a poor bullet in many if not most calibers back in the 40's and 50's...but that is another subject.

I don't mean to stir up s--t, by having an opinnion on calibers, as there are quit a few that I don't particularly like, and many that I do like that someone else might not like. Surely some of you have a caliber that you don't like or are all of you like Will Rogers, never met a caliber you didn/t like?

But we must all agree that the 30-06 is a great caliber!

There isn't any caliber that "I don't like!" But there are a lot of them that I do not find useful for any purpose that I need a rifle for.
The 30-06 is one of those.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Winchester just did not get it right in the beginning.

...and it took 40 years of propellant technology to make it work, which it still won't do at low pressure. A bad design by definition.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

As to the post about the .375 and poor bullets, that is a fact, poor bullets were the norm back in those days, I shot many a poor bullet in many if not most calibers back in the 40's and 50's...but that is another subject.

Ray,

That was my post. You must have done some reading. Even you weren't hunting DG in 1912 when the 375H&H was introduced.

JPK

BTW, any of you who claim that the 458 needs to run at max to perform ever pressure test any ammo? I have, or at least I had it done as a favor. My all time favorite elephant load, with North Fork flat nose solids, that produced tremendous penetration as field results and tests on elephant heads has confirmed, is well below max.

If its ok to run the 375H&H and the 416 Rem or the Lott or the 450 Ackley or the 416 Taylor or Hoffman or the 460 Wby or the .... at X pressure, what makes it wrong to run the 458wm at the same pressure?

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
If its ok to run the 375H&H and the 416 Rem or the Lott or the 450 Ackley or the 416 Taylor or Hoffman or the 460 Wby or the .... at X pressure, what makes it wrong to run the 458wm at the same pressure?

Precisely.

I would wager that more game has been shot in Africa with so-called "high pressure" loads (i.e., over 55,000 p.s.i.) than with loads producing less pressure.

Just imagine how much plains and dangerous game is shot each year and has been shot over the years with all of the calibers that JPK has listed and many, many more - all of the magnums, for example, and many of the non-magnums.

We aren't burning cordite any more, after all.

Re 458WM, ADI (Hodgden stick powders) don't mind a bit of compression, and are not heat sensitive. IE 500gr.H-4895,74gr. 2205 fps 24" or 2161 @ 50,300 cup.

And the design wasn't to annoy anyone, but to fit in a standard length action.
So apart from dud ammo it's a winner all the way.
If you want something bigger, that's your choise.

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
Re 458WM, ADI (Hodgden stick powders) don't mind a bit of compression, and are not heat sensitive. IE 500gr.H-4895,74gr. 2205 fps 24" or 2161 @ 50,300 cup.

And the design wasn't to annoy anyone, but to fit in a standard length action.
So apart from dud ammo it's a winner all the way.
If you want something bigger, that's your choise.

JAL, the quote, in red, above doesn't hold water, as all Mod 70s at the time the 458 came out were 375 H&H length actions!They just had different length magazine boxes. The dud ammo was caused by the CASE which was too short for the powders available at the time!

The fact is a cartridge that comes out new, with no powders that will allow it to loaded without compression of existing powders, is a poor design. It has taken 50 yrs of powder research to fix what could have been fixed in five minutes with a change to a 375H&H length case. If it had we wouldn't be haveing this converstion 53 yrs later!

Most of the guys here who think there never was a problem with the 458 Win Mag, weren't even born till 10 to 15 yrs after it came out in 1954! That coupled with the fact that most of the gun writers of today are no older than those who somehow believe there was no holocaust, or problems with the 458 Win Mag, simply because they were not there!

The cartridge can be made to shoot, today, without much problem, but how do you justify a company sticking with a design, for 50 yrs waiting for someone else to fix it, when there was a five minute fix, the day it came out? The case was the problem, not the powder, or bullet!It simply needed a tiny bit more room for the existing powders available in 1954!

/

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Just to point out a very important point:

Winchester did not concieve the 458 WIN MAG ! Nor was it's intent to be a replacement of the British 45 cal Nitro's.

This may sound inconsequential but it is not.

The original cartridge intended to be the American Answer to the British 45 caliber Nitro was a full length 375 Norma case based 45 cal,( aka 450 Watts) originally loaded with imported Kynoch 480 gr 450 Nitro solid bullets..... the reason for this is that at the time there was no US made 45 cal bullet avialable that could handle velocities of the new caliber.

This caliber was offered to both Roy Weatherby and twice to Winchester. Both declined, Winchester apparently feeling that the big bore market was claimed by the British.

In 1951 Watts shortened the full length Watts to 63 mm , he dubbed this the 450 Short Watts and this was accepted by Winchester as it fitted their Pre 64 action. Winchester and Watts signed a release of this cartridge that then became the 458 Win mag. Watts also made a 50 mm version, a 57mm version the 63mm version ( aka 458 Win Mag) and finally the Full length version which is actually longer than Jack Lott's much later version.

Quote:
Winchester Model 70 standard grade

Calibers 22 hornet,220 swift,243 win,250-3000,257 Roberts,270 Win, 7x57mm, 30-06, 308 win, 300 H&H mag, 375 H&H mag.
5-shot box mag (4 shot in mag calibers) 24-inch barrel standard; 26-inch in 220 swift, and 300H&H, 25-inch in 375 H&H; At one time a 20-inch barrel was available. Open rear sight,
hooded ramp front sight. Checkered walnut stock; Monte Carlo come, standard on later production. Weigh: from 7 3/4 pounds , depending on caliber,and barrel length. made 1937 to 1963.

The pre 64 action was a 375H&H length action! Winchester was the first, in the USA, to chamber the 375 H&H, in thier mod 70, in 1938! Also by 1954 the supplies of British NE ammo was getting scarce, and what was available was old, and no very reliable. The mod 70 458 win mag was a cheap replacement for the very costly double rifles from the UK, with factory ammop available. The bad thing about it was the ammo was no more reliable, if as reliable as the old cordite crap coming out of the UK. There was absolutely no need for a 45 cal magnum in the USA, even Winchester's adds were aimed at Africa, with pictures of Cape Buffalo, and elephant in them!

JPK,
Apparantly you were not hunting with the .375 in the late 40s and 50s! Lot of bullet failures back in those days, and that has nothing to do with 1912, just a time in history before the bullet makers got it right..It says a lot for how far the bullet makers have come since then. I recall haveing terrible luck with some Silvertips in the .375 and the old buff nose WW solid was a rather nice expanding bullet!! as I recall.

Just a point of clarification. All pre-64 Winchester Model 70 actions are the same length. They are not "magnum" length, in the same sense as the long, "magnum-length" Mauser Model 98 action is. The pre-64 Winchester Model 70 action is really a standard length action - essentially the same length as a "standard" length Mauser Model 98 action - 8.77" for the Winchester vs. 8.75" for the Mauser, according to my sources.

The pre-64 Model 70s chambered in .300 H&H Mag. and .375 H&H Mag. required a fair bit of machine work to make the action fit these cartridges. The receiver ring and bridge are both relieved. The same bolt stop was used for the standard and the magnum cartridges, but a longer magazine box was fitted to the action, to accommodate the 3.6" length of the H&H cartridges.

Still, the point is that Winchester had been making the Model 70 to accommodate the H&H length cartridges for 20 years before they introduced the .458 Win. Mag. on its shortened case. So it wasn't an engineering decision, but a marketing decision, that drove Winchester to adopt its stubby .458.

An interesting book on the development of the "American 450" is "JAMES '450' WATTS: RECOLLECTIONS OF MY LIFE".

Published by Cal Pappas, Anchorage AK

The .458 Winchester Magnum develops significantly more recoil energy than does the .375 H&H. Winchester took this into account when making the decision whether to use a "standard" length case or open the action up for a .375 length case.

Good grief the 458 will kill anything that needs killing, just load it up and hunt with it and forget all this rhetoric. I mentioned opening up my 458 to Lott to one of my PHs and he was very outspoken against it. OK the 458 is poorly designed. Apparently so is the 375 H&H. It has a belt, shit can't have that. It has too much taper, feeds well but could have more powder space for all of that length of case. Then of course it is too long. So see we get the short mags that don't have that dreaded belt, short to keep the powder close to the primer for accuracy, but they catch flack on the forums all the time. 375 Ruger comes out and its great because it is shorter than the 375H&H and gets more velocity. Good grief you can pick apart every round you want to and find something to moan about. Heck go out and get a 460 Weatherby. Oh I forgot its a Weatherby, theres a whole other gripe. OK get a 460 A-Square, I forgot again, A-Square is bad. So in short, the 30-06 sucks and the 300 Weatherby is better. After all it is longer, holds more powder gets more velocity, drives heavy bullets faster and the design is what the 30-06 should have been in the first place.

Still, with all the Huff and Puff there has been some interesting new points thrown up.
A blokes gotta know these things.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnum Hunter1:
Good grief the 458 will kill anything that needs killing, just load it up and hunt with it and forget all this rhetoric.

Just like the .45-70 posts this is one of the hot buttons here when things get slow. As I said in one of the earlier posts, everything I ever shot with my .458 was dead on it's feet, and with a 26" barrel has Lott like velocities. I'd rather shoot a .223 with good bullet placement, than a Lott with poor placement, and since the .458MG is so much more enjoyable to shoot, I would suspect that most hunters, myself included, can do a better job with a comfortable gun, than a beast that we don't want to practice with.

I've yet to see anyone (including Atkinson) who has shared a story about a failed .458WM in a properly placed shot. Until you can document one, I call BS on this whole tread.