I have owned 2 different 458 Win Mags.
I was "issued" another as a work gun.

I got my first one in 1977.
I have researched the 458 a fair amount.

Here is my theory.

Winchester conceived the 458 as the modern replacement of the Nitro Expresses.

The 500gr solid was for elephant, cape buff, & hippo.

The 510 SP was lightly constructed for lion, it was never intended for use on cape buff.

They made 2 mistakes, they should have used the full length 375 case, and they used ball powder, compressed.

[PS "they" repeated the ball powder mistake with the M-16/223]

There is no dooubt that the ball powder caused problems after being loaded for a spell.

Also there were a large number of "clients" that had never done a lot of shooting with big bore rifles. They went to Africa with a 458 and even with fresh ammo shot their big game "around the fringes", needed help from the PH, but when they returned home reported that "I hit the beast with 7 rounds before he was slayed".

So between bad ammo, and bad shooting, the 458 got a "bad rap".

It has never recovered.

"Professionals" that have used the 458 with good ammo report no problems.
Finn Agard, and Ron Thompson, are but 2 examples.

JPK with his 458 Win Mag double, multiple elephants slayed, is another prime example of the abilities of the "modern" 458.

In todays world with todays ammo, I would have no fear using a 458. [IF I was Bolt Rifle Trash, or found a nice 458 double rifle like JPK . I have tried HARD to get Blaser to make me a 458 bbl, the answer was NO!]

Properly loaded the 458 is a good DG round.

Weren't the initial "actual" velocities in the 1800 fps range, as opposed to the advertised velocities on 2100-2200 fps?

They had some horrible PR right out of the gate, including Jack Lott's experience.

I recall a quote from the "AR Africa Book" from the discussion of the 458 Win - the cartridge most sworn by or most sworn at....

Jeez, this is refreshing. I've had around 4-5 458WinMag's over the years and have basically just used them for ground squirrels and other small game. It's really a very good round when using cast bullets. I've never found a 458 that didn't like cast. Now, as 450No2 has posted along with JPK, with today's powders and using 450gr and 500gr bullets is no problem. With the right powders, the load is dense enough where the round will have minumum compression. You'll hear the powder rattling around when you shake them. I've used Re7 for quite a while and found that it did OK as long as I didn't want to go fulltilt boogie all the time. JPK has turned me on to different powders that are in the same burning range as my Re7 loads. Within the limitations of the short cartridge, juducious use of certain powders has basically increased the usefulness and utility of this classic old cartridge. Of course, YMMV.

BTW, the 458 is also the softest recoiling of all the bigbore cartridges out there excluding the 375.

The 1800f/s range you're talking about are when the factory loads were down-loaded because of overly compressed loads and to prevent the caking of the powder.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I have owned 2 different 458 Win Mags.
I was "issued" another as a work gun.

I got my first one in 1977.
I have researched the 458 a fair amount.

Here is my theory.

Winchester conceived the 458 as the modern replacement of the Nitro Expresses.

The 500gr solid was for elephant, cape buff, & hippo.

The 510 SP was lightly constructed for lion, it was never intended for use on cape buff.

They made 2 mistakes, they should have used the full length 375 case, and they used ball powder, compressed.

[PS "they" repeated the ball powder mistake with the M-16/223]

There is no dooubt that the ball powder caused problems after being loaded for a spell.

Also there were a large number of "clients" that had never done a lot of shooting with big bore rifles. They went to Africa with a 458 and even with fresh ammo shot their big game "around the fringes", needed help from the PH, but when they returned home reported that "I hit the beast with 7 rounds before he was slayed".

So between bad ammo, and bad shooting, the 458 got a "bad rap".

It has never recovered.

"Professionals" that have used the 458 with good ammo report no problems.
Finn Agard, and Ron Thompson, are but 2 examples.

JPK with his 458 Win Mag double, multiple elephants slayed, is another prime example of the abilities of the "modern" 458.

In todays world with todays ammo, I would have no fear using a 458. [IF I was Bolt Rifle Trash, or found a nice 458 double rifle like JPK . I have tried HARD to get Blaser to make me a 458 bbl, the answer was NO!]

Properly loaded the 458 is a good DG round.

Maybe I am living in la la land but I thought everyone knew this by now!

465H&H

465 H&H
Sadly many do not. The "458 Rumours Persist".

Sorry, but I know this will upset you, but the average distance on my last 2 elephants was 5.5 yards.

If it makes you feel any better I did frontal brain one at @ 45 yards as I needed his meat for lion bait and we could not get any closer due to the terrain.

One additional problem was Winchester originally used a "light" glue to help hold the bullet in place under recoil. Some lots of loads had the powder contaminated by the glue.

The .458 Win Mag dominated the DGR market for many years.

I hate being baited into another 45-70 debate, but my Vz24 in .458WM with a 26" barrel chronographs at the same velocity as a Lott.

EVERYTHING I have shot with it has dropped like a stone. These old rumors are just silly.

I'm taking my .458 for elephant this August, and there is no other bolt action round I feel more comfortable shooting. It has just the right amount of energy to kill anything on the planet, and I can shoot it all day long.

Mark
What solid will you use for the elephant?

I would say that about sums it up.

Still, the Lott is to the Win. Mag. as the .357 Mag. is to the .38 Spl., and who buys a .38 these days except in a snubbie?

mr, you'd be surprised at how many 38Sp's in 4" barrels are going out the door at most gunshops. The used gun market is there because of the hefty price tags that new guns demand. After all, handguns are like longguns, you look for a "good" deal anywheres.

The 458 WM can be loaded to 2150+ fps quite easily, and is the same as all the "magical" NE rounds. It is just fine 99% of the time, but those other 1% get squashed!

A light, short-actioned 458 WM, with a big magazine, would be a dandy DG gun.

I have a lot of new W-W 458 WM brass for sale!

Tony, if I recall my history correctly, (correct me if I'm wrong!)the problems with ball powder in the M-16 were related to two things, The burn rate was different from the IMR powders the 16 was developed with, which caused a higher cyclic rate which equals broken parts/jams, and they used I think calcium carbonate as a coating for the powder and to make it flow through the machinery better and they used too much which led to excessive fouling. Throw in the military belief at that time, the 16 did not need to be cleaned and at first they did not even issue cleaning kits, no wonder it had such a hard time living down its reputation!
Back in the early 80's, I got my first chronograph and my first .458. All of the factory loads(Win&Rem) that I tried were right at 2000 fps from the 24" barrel of my M-70, I never did find any of those 18-1900 loads. I personally do not know anyone that ever chrono'd any loads back then that came up with these velocities and wonder if it was just a myth that got perpetuated by magazine articles. WTBY claimed for years that their factory 300/180gr. load was 3400fps, it took Ken Ohler to bring a little reality to the industry!
The problems in Africa with squib loads from the powder compacting from rough handling, bouncing around in Land Rovers, and the like was well documented and sure did not help the Win mag reputation. Ron Thomson, in his book "Mahohboh" had a high opinion of the cartridge and the Winchester factory load for culling elephants.
One thing for sure, a good 500 grain .458 buillet at over 2000 fps does not care if it came out of a 450 Nitro or a 458 win mag, it is more than potent enough to do the job.
One thing I always wanted to know about the Gorilla, did the bullet penetrate completely through? Lee.

I was jumping pimping you guys about the brass. I'm not selling mine!

quote:

One thing for sure, a good 500 grain .458 buillet at over 2000 fps does not care if it came out of a 450 Nitro or a 458 win mag, it is more than potent enough to do the job.

That is what I say too!!!

My .458 WM shoots 450 gr North Fork Sloids @ 2250 with 71 gr of AA 2230 (a ball powder). That is not a compressed load at least when loaded through a drop tube. I could get it to shoot 2300 I think but don't see the need.

I don't see any way that a "more powerful" .458 class rifle is going to do better at keeping me alive than my WM at these ballistics.

From what I have read and learned from PH's is that a good 450 gr solid at 2250 from a .458 is just right.

ledvm,

Don't you have problems getting the FP solids to feed?

465H&H, All,

As Tony pointed out, sadly the myths persist. See Mac's latest post in the "Double vs. Bolt" thread. And Ray Atkinson has been around on other hunting sites lately repeating the same baloney.

Worse, some of the 45/70 coolaid drinkers use the "1800 - 1900fps" myth? as "evidence" that their pumkin rollers are elephant guns. 500grs at 1800 or 1900fps ain't enough in my book no matter what its coming out of. And less is not more, even if it is hard cast. But then look at Lee 440's post, he nver found a slow roller 458wm.

Everyone cites Lott's incident but apparently Lott's poor shot was the issue, not the performane of the 458wm. A bullet in the guts is a bullet in the guts, again, no matter what its is coming out of.

The 458wm should have been made on the full length case, but that's another debate. Build a rifle today, build a Lott. Find a nice, second hand 458wm that fits and live happily ever after.

JPK

Mike (owner of North Fork) and JPK both warned me that the flat points might not feed but they seem to feed just fine in my rifle. And they will really shoot from my rifle.

I have an old pre-64 M-70 Supergrade that was custom built at Winchester's custom shop in 1957.

It has the slickest action of any bolt action rifle I have ever picked up. Off the bench (in my lead sled) it will shoot 3 of those North Fork solids into one ragged hole at 100. It just happens to be one of those "good rifles".

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
465H&H, All,

As Tony pointed out, sadly the myths persist. See Mac's latest post in the "Double vs. Bolt" thread. And Ray Atkinson has been around on other hunting sites lately repeating the same baloney.

JPK

............TIREING!

Gentlemen, It seems JPK has a problem with anything I write, and the fact is, that is his right! I have no problem with those who disagree with anything I post here, but sarcasm isn't needed, IMO, and seems a little childish to me!

To recap what I said in the bolt Vs double thread.
paraphraseing! The 458 had problems in it's early days, all relating to case capacity, and the powders it had to work with at that time. Still today, it takes VERY careful handloading to avoid probems, that are easy to overcome with the LOTT case, without increasing chamber pressures. My experience for that opinion is that I have owned several 458 Win Mag rifle over the years, and handloaded hundreds of rounds for that cartridge. All the problems I experienced, were easier to fix with one simple change, to the LOTT case! It's not brain surgery!

In that string, the pressure thing was mentioned in ragard to the cartridges use in double rifles Something JPK should be more than aware of, and he is, but it seems if I say it, it's wrong. NIT PICKING!

The above is exactly the same thing JPK says, only with less sarcasm, aimed at anyone personally!

I'm gone gentlemen!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
465H&H, All,

As Tony pointed out, sadly the myths persist. See Mac's latest post in the "Double vs. Bolt" thread. And Ray Atkinson has been around on other hunting sites lately repeating the same baloney.

JPK

............TIREING!

Mac, All,

I have editted this post. Mac refers to the doubles vs. Bolt thread. He points out that he said more or less what I said. I reread his post on that thread and he is correct. I clearly misread his post and so shouldn't have included Mac in my earlier post on this thread or inferred that he was recounting old myths.

Mac has taken offense to my comments, which were in error. I meant no insult or sarcasm but I appologize to Mac for both my error and any offense taken.

I do not have a problem with you Mac.

JPK

Show us a .458/450-500gr quality bullet that has failed when being pushed over 2100. Better still show us an elephant or buffalo it failed to kill with a properly placed bullet.
It brings up the adage, "how dead is dead?"

Alp#4,

Take a look at the current thread on Horniday "brass" sloids. I think some may have failed at these speeds.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
465 H&H
Sadly many do not. The "458 Rumours Persist".

Sorry, but I know this will upset you, but the average distance on my last 2 elephants was 5.5 yards.

If it makes you feel any better I did frontal brain one at @ 45 yards as I needed his meat for lion bait and we could not get any closer due to the terrain.

Tony
I don't feel upset at all on how close you shot your eles! I only think it is a problem when people tell others that it is the "Preferred" distance to shoot elephants. I just think it adds an unnecessary risk to an already risky undertaking. It isn't the professional way to handle the problem. Sort of like going into a building after an armed suspect with out back up.


465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
Weren't the initial "actual" velocities in the 1800 fps range, as opposed to the advertised velocities on 2100-2200 fps?

They had some horrible PR right out of the gate, including Jack Lott's experience.

I recall a quote from the "AR Africa Book" from the discussion of the 458 Win - the cartridge most sworn by or most sworn at....

Jack Lotts problem was bullet related not power related. One of Jack's solids broke apart and the other bent in a banna shape......
Also Harry Shelby used the 458 Win for manny years.........

I have been told that AA 2230 even though ball powder is NOT temperature sensitive and will NOT cake.

Anybody got any evidence to the contrary for this powder???

Mike Brady at North Fork tells me it is almost always the best for the .458 WM with H 4895 1st runner-up.

One thing you cannot get around and that is the .458 when loaded to where it needs to be and that is about 2100 FPS is over 100% powder capacity or more for that case, and that causes compaction. Compaction causes misfires from time to time.

I have used the .458 with success and I have seen it fail, I have chrongraped some factory ammo at very slow velocity.

IMHO, the .458 earned its bad reputation, otherwise it would not be a topic of conversation. Where there is smoke, there is fire, so I will pass on the .458 for my personal use or I will punch it out to the Lott and load it at 2200 FPS, that's an easy and logical approach IMO.

If Finn was still with us wonder what He'd have to say..
AK

quote:

One thing you cannot get around and that is the .458 when loaded to where it needs to be and that is about 2100 FPS is over 100% powder capacity or more for that case,

IMHO, I don't think that is a true statement for all powders available (and useful for the .458 WM) today.

So far, I have not found a PH to bad mouth the .458 WM.

I like the 458 If you use the right powder there is not a issue. I suggest anyone to try H-335 or Viht N-140 with it and I dont think you will go for a lott. I got 2105fps adv with H-335out of a 21 in barrel with a 500 hornday RN. No pressure sign in the Texas summer heat. Good enough for me and any Bovine on the planet.

505ED

I have only owned one 458 Mag and that was when I lived in Alsaka. the rifle was a Interarms Whitworth and it gave me 2110 fps with 500 grain bullets and IMR-4895.........

quote:

One thing you cannot get around and that is the .458 when loaded to where it needs to be and that is about 2100 FPS is over 100% powder capacity or more for that case, and that causes compaction. Compaction causes misfires from time to time.

This simply isn't true. With 450 grain bullets, AA2230, and no compaction, you can get 2275 fps or better with ZERO compaction. You can also load 500 grain bullets to 2200 with a small amount of compaction. Compaction does not hurt anything at all. Long range target shooters have been doing it for years. Pertsonally, I can see no reason to fool around with a Lott.

Well, I suppose that I'll throw in my 2 cents worth. Two weeks ago I shot my first elephant with my pre 64 mod 70 458 loaded with GS fn. The first shot (frontal brain)passed under the brain, just missed the spine, traveled through the lungs from front to back, he reacted to the shot and turned to his left exposing his right side; second shot was a bit high as it missed the heart, however, it penetrated the shoulder and lungs right to left and existed the right side, this shot knocked him down but he got right back up; the third entered behind the right ear, penetrated the skull, brain and lodged behind his left ear. From first to last shot he did not travel more than 50 feet. Any one of the three would have killed him, but, the only reason that it took 3 was bullet placement.

Gents: Just for my edification, are ALL loads compressed in the 458Win in order to achieve 2100 fps regardless of powder used? thanks, jorge

No, only with some powders.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Alp#4,

Take a look at the current thread on Horniday "brass" sloids. I think some may have failed at these speeds.

JPK

JPK I did write a quality bullet didn't I? While I have used many bullets in many different calibers from Hornady I've never seen them as a quality bullet. Yes indeed some found their solids to be good at a time, though I was never in that camp.

lee440
your post is essentially correct, except that the calcium carbonate was used in the manufacturing process when Olin was making WC 846 powder out of salvaged cannon powder. It was reduced to .025% once it was discovered it might pe part of the problem.

First shot 2 the head did pass through.
Second shot down through the chest at an angle did not.
Bullets were 500gr TPBC, Federal factory.

quote:

Gents: Just for my edification, are ALL loads compressed in the 458Win in order to achieve 2100 fps regardless of powder used? thanks, jorge

The answer to this question is no. I am NO expert but you can load the 458 WM to shoot 450 gr bullets to 2250 with AA 2230 with out compaction.

It seems to me if you have to drop down to a 450 gr. bullet to make a .458 work for you that the original design was wrong from the start!!

I cannot think of one reason not to punch a .458 out to a 458 Lott, its such a simple procedure, not expensive and you can load it to 2200 FPS and have a very mild load indeed. Factory ammo is available.

The .458 has been challanged since its birth and by some pretty savvy guys, I don't hear anyone challanging the .416, 338, 375, and a host of others, there has to be a reason for this, the .458 was poorly designed and its paying for its sins!

Yes, I know a lot of folks that like it, some are very good friends and business partners, and I have no problem with what they choose, I just don't happen to agree.

I have no need of a rifle that I have to go around justifying all the time!

Ray: If it can't be killed with 450 grs another 50 isn't going to help.
That 375 you speak of does it @ 270 grs and I doubt there are any posters here on AR that haven't heard what a 250gr 338 has killed legal or not.

Ray,

Do some reading. The 375H&H had birthing issues with bullets unable to withstands its velocity. Geez, for a modern take on it look at Robertson's book.

On the 450's vs the 500's two things. 1. the 450NE works better with 450gr North Forks, so does the 458 Lott. It aint the cartridge, its the bullet. 2. No one invented mono bullets when they invented the 450NE, same for the 458wm.

JPK