I know a lot of guys who have hunted Africa and like to thump their chests about their 40"+ buffalo or their monster tom leopard and brag about what awesome hunters they are for taking such great trophies.

To me, the credit should go to the PH. The hunter tags along behind the PH and the trackers and then shoots the animal that the PH tells him to shoot. The only credit to the client it seems, if he is capable of doing so, should be for making a good shot and not wounding game. If I had to guess I'll bet that 99.9% of client hunters would be incapable of hunting dangerous game on their own without a PH, if it were legal. They couldn't track the animals, they wouldn't know the area, they wouldn't speak the native languages and so forth, and they would lack the experience to hunt dangerous game without getting themselves or someone else hurt or killed.

Why all of the bravado?

Why don't more hunters admit to the fact the they really contributed nothing but following along and shooting what they are told to shoot and that the credit for the trophies should go the PH and his trackers? Isn't a client hunter really just a tourist after all?

Just in the mood to stir up some dissention are we?

Guess you have never hunted with any friends. When hunting with a friend who gets the credit? The one who sees the animal first or the one who shoots it? When hunting with someone you are both there and have gone thru the same things whether it been long stalks, a lot of glassing or whatever. So who says who deserves more credit than the other?

Especially when hunting in a place that I am not familiar I want someone there that is.

Forgot to mention that in most of the countries in Africa it is law that you have to have a licensed PH with you.

No serious hunter that I know personally would ever give short shrift to the role that a good PH plays in taking trophy animals.

The hunter, deserves credit as well -- making the well-placed shot after chasing a great animal for an entire day or more, in heat and cold, isn't something that everyone can pull off.

But, in the end, it would seldom be possible without a talented and conscientious PH -- which is why SCI records the name of the PH right along side the hunter in the record books. It's as it should be.

Gee Chobe,,, where are you from, your public profile doesn't give us anything to go on. Been on any Safaris? When you do maybe you will understand this website better. Everytime I survive the trip over is reason enough to beat my chest. You just trolling the internet to start trouble or are you going to use this forum for what it was intended for?

quote:

Originally posted by Chobe Bushbuck:
I know a lot of guys who have hunted Africa and like to thump their chests about their 40"+ buffalo or their monster tom leopard and brag about what awesome hunters they are for taking such great trophies.

To me, the credit should go to the PH. The hunter tags along behind the PH and the trackers and then shoots the animal that the PH tells him to shoot. The only credit to the client it seems, if he is capable of doing so, should be for making a good shot and not wounding game. If I had to guess I'll bet that 99.9% of client hunters would be incapable of hunting dangerous game on their own without a PH, if it were legal. They couldn't track the animals, they wouldn't know the area, they wouldn't speak the native languages and so forth, and they would lack the experience to hunt dangerous game without getting themselves or someone else hurt or killed.

Why all of the bravado?

Why don't more hunters admit to the fact the they really contributed nothing but following along and shooting what they are told to shoot and that the credit for the trophies should go the PH and his trackers? Isn't a client hunter really just a tourist after all?

OK, I've had enough of this guy and his assinine posts designed to . So I'm saying either he is trolling AR or has a total lack of decorum. In either case

I probably shouldn't say this but I'm not very clever anyway so here goes. I'm always a little suspicious of a person who joins the forum and offers no info on his profile nor even a general area on the Location: space. What's to hide unless the person just wants to stir up BS?

Mark

What Mark said +1.

chobe,

I drive a Jaguar convertible. I paid for it, and I pay for the gas and insurance. Who gets the credit, me or the construction company who built the Interstate I drive on?

Nothing wrong with being an ass every once in awhile, just don't make a career out of it.

Rich

by the way, congratulations on a fantastic start here on AR. One thing, you have nowhere to go but up from here.

DG hunting is a team sport. Each member of the successful team contributes.

Just a couple of examples of different contributions from different members of the team follows:

PH's don't track, trackers track, and though a PH may be a fair tracker, and even the client might be pretty fair, they couldn't do it without the trackers, eh?

PH's, often with input from the trackers and/or client plan the final approach so the team isn't blown by scent or sight, while at the same time avoiding too much exposure, especially for eles, and even more so for cow eles.

Now the client, well, his contributions are in some ways both the least important and the most important. Could the remainder of the team carry on without the client? Yes so far as skill, but no, the client must sponsor the team. Without a sponsor, the hunt doesn't happen.

So, the client earns some bragging rights. He planned the trip for the right time, in the right place and he selected the successful team. He was a sufficiently proficient hunter and in sufficient shape, in sufficient shooting form, with sufficient knowledge of the anatomy of the target animal, with siffcient grit and determination, and last but not least, he is sufficiently successful in his trade, proffesion or business and/or conservative with his finances that he is able to sponsor the team.

Luck plays a role too, for all participants.

I have told the PH I most often hunt elephants with that my goal is to become proficient enough that I could step into his shoes and plan a hunt, from where within the concession to begin looking for ele sign to setting the tracking pace based on time and freshness of spoor, to planning and making an approach. He would assume the role of coach, just as his mentor did when teaching him when he was an appy.

I'm not there yet, but I will be. Even then, the hunt is a team effort...

JPK

To simplify my earlier post and add some parrallel examples:

Dangerous game hunting is a team effort.

Every member of the team contributes, PH's don't track, trackers track for example.

At the very minimum the client is the sponsor of the team. He has selected the right outfitter, PH and trackers, time, location, and without his sponsorship the hunt wouldn't happen.

Ever notice how after a football game, especially a league title or the Super Bowl they pan cameras to the owner's box and show the owwner being heartily congratulated for his team's success?

Ever watch the Preakness or the Derby, and seen the horse's owner in the winners' circle, along with the jockey and the trainer and the horse, being congratulated and then interviewed?

Ever seen the NASCAR team owner, pit chief and pit crew celebrating and being congratulated for their teams victory, interviewed about it, right along with the driver?

JPK

It's a partnership.

For me with only two safaris so far, success has come from my PHs and the trackers, the authors of many books and dvds (Craig Boddington, Marc Watts, Buzz Charlton, Jeff Cooper, etc.), with both good shooting and lucky shooting on my part. Like I said it has been a partnership, like most things in life.

Thank you to those who took the time to give their thoughtful input on my questions. For the rest thanks for the warm welcome, I guess.

know a lot of guys who have hunted Africa and like to thump their chests

I've done work for hundreds of hunters and this statement is just plain BS. I honestly can't remember any of them EVER "Chest Thumping".

It's a shame for you to lose all credibility on your first post.

Chobe, Your initial post comes across as more of an accusation than a question even tho that's probably not what you intended. I'm new here also and these are good guys.

Funny - I don't ever remember in 45 year of hunting anyone ever wanting or claiming credit for a successful hunt. All express joy in success, celebrate the hunt, value and appreciate the animal, and mostly keep other feelings including respect, sadness for the death, etc. a personal matter. Hand shakes and congratulations are shared with all of the group in recognition of their contribution and the feelings mentioned above. But never credit!

The members on this website have been a huge asset for me over the years and I gain from their insight and advice on many topics. What scope do you like,,, where in Namibia and what about this Ph, what to take for meds,local customs, travel agents etc. Many here are new and many have been "around the bush" a great deal. Your post in the 'dog" section asking about canine chiropractics and refering to chiropractors as quacks won't help you much with a few of our doctors of chiropractic medicine that post here either. My last trip to Africa I had a chiropractor on the hunt,,I had never met him before,, not only was he a member of AR that I didn't know, he was a great hunter, fun in camp,, and helped me with my bad back in camp when I needed a little tuning up. That is the kind of folks who are on AR....Saeed is a very gracious host making this available to all of us.
Welcome to AR but thse folks won't tolerate someone that just wants to stir up trouble. I hope the rest of your time here on AR is more enlightning..

quote:

I know a lot of guys who have hunted Africa and like to thump their chests about their 40"+ buffalo or their monster tom leopard and brag about what awesome hunters they are for taking such great trophies.

This assertion, if true, says more about your choice of acquaintances than about any of the African hunters with whom I associate. Some have been quite successful, but none "thump their chests."

I have to agree with PSmith (and others) in that it is a joint venture/partnership. I think the smile on my PH's face each time we took and animal was as big or bigger than mine. He had sucessfully completed another successfull stalk while dragging "his gunbearer" along (me!). While I supplied the funds for this excursion he supplied the skill and knowledge to sucessfully complete the hunt.

quote:

Funny - I don't ever remember in 45 year of hunting anyone ever wanting or claiming credit for a successful hunt. All express joy in success, celebrate the hunt, value and appreciate the animal, and mostly keep other feelings including respect, sadness for the death, etc. a personal matter. Hand shakes and congratulations are shared with all of the group in recognition of their contribution and the feelings mentioned above. But never credit!

I agree with this 100%

"credit" is a strange word to use.

It is about being with good company in surroundings that fascinate you, experiencing the highs and lows, and enjoying the pursuit of amazing creatures. Not credit.

Perhaps you are perceiving people as bragging when they are just trying to share something they are passionate about.

Welcome to the forum

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
I probably shouldn't say this but I'm not very clever anyway so here goes. I'm always a little suspicious of a person who joins the forum and offers no info on his profile nor even a general area on the Location: space. What's to hide unless the person just wants to stir up BS?

Mark

I have always believed that the rules ought to be that you post under your name. I think all that anonymity does is encourage people to toss turds, be uncivil, and otherwise hide behind some cute little screen name.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK: ...PH's don't track, trackers track, and though a PH may be a fair tracker, and even the client might be pretty fair, they couldn't do it without the trackers, eh?

PH's, often with input from the trackers and/or client plan the final approach so the team isn't blown by scent or sight, while at the same time avoiding too much exposure, especially for eles, and even more so for cow eles.

Now the client, well, his contributions are in some ways both the least important and the most important. Could the remainder of the team carry on without the client? Yes so far as skill, but no, the client must sponsor the team. Without a sponsor, the hunt doesn't happen...

Wow John, this is simply a thing of beauty! Well put!

I am always impressed with the trackers, and I share your desire to "go it alone" because deep down, we know, they [and the PH running the show] are the real hunters. We just get to participate for a moment in time, and every now and again, do something pretty cool.

A few times recently, after success in the field, the fellow hunters and PH's greeted me with a huge "WELL DONE BWANA!". It felt a bit weird, almost insulting if that makes any sense, as I couldn't take the credit. In one case, we tracked an eland that I wounded the day before for some 8 hours, yes I kept up and stayed involved in the hunt and made a good finishing shot when we finally caught up to him - but the day belonged to the trackers, not me. It felt as though the entire team, starting with the pro's, should be commended. I’m proud to have been a part of that, as I think Buzz was too.

Conversely, when the hunters are not included in the accolades, it sounds disrespectful, regardless if appropriate or not.

When Martin said to me and the appy in the jess hunting tuskless elephant something to the effect of and excluding words that begin with “f” and end in “ing” - “It’s so thick in here, Stephen might walk right by them, and if they come, they could come from the sides, and you better be ready and shoot as they will be on you in seconds and that will be it”, I am pretty sure he was not blowing smoke up my arse. Sometimes it is real, and after a few hunts the difference becomes easy to spot. But, part of the responsibility is up to the hunter, and some are happy being the professional "non-participatory" client and that’s fine, and some just need to be.

A good PH knows how to include the client in the hunt to the extent possible, so that they feel and actually are members of the TEAM, and not just there to be dragged around the bush to jerk the trigger when so instructed.

Some even let you drive their beloved Cruiser now and again!

Either I over-step my bounds routinely (certainly a possibility!), or I have been very lucky with whom I have hunted. As John said, it's about the team, and a good PH knows how to assemble this for his clients.

Yea, my chest is thumping when we were tracking buffalo and the Masai trackers whispers SIMBA. My chest was thumping again when the Ph in Zim is looking to the left and I look to the right and there not even 20 feet is a bull ele looking at me us in the jess. My chest is thumping again after I point out vultures flying way off in the distance and the Ph says lets go and check it out. We find and dead kongoni and I listen to the trackers in Swhili and I do not know the language but I do know words. The conversation goes simba chui chui simba back and forth. I then say to PVT they are talking about a lion and leopard and he tranlates, " it is a giant leopard as big as a lioness."
Let me tell you when that giant Tanzanian ele walked out and I saw that long ivory thumping hell, It was banging and I am surprised the bull ele did not se my shirt moving with all of the banging going on.
Seeing that tall Masai come piling out of the truck after I made the shot. His eyes like saucers and bouncing up and down with excitement.


Mike

So chobe if you don't get it you are not a hunter.

Mike, that was great. I love this stuff.

In a hunt that goes right, everyone works as a team, and everyone has fun!

quote:

I know a lot of guys who have hunted Africa and like to thump their chests about their 40"+ buffalo or their monster tom leopard and brag about what awesome hunters they are for taking such great trophies.

Thinking your hanging with the wrong crowd.

JPK and Bill C summed it pretty well.

Sadly, shooting a big trophy animals does not mean anything more than sheer bloody LUCK!

Anyone who claims he deserves any credit for such a thing is lying.

As mentioned above, hunting is a team effort, which includes the PH, client, trackers and game scout.

But, none of the above has anything to do with what size animals they see in the wild.

If you are lucky, you will come across an exceptional trophy.

If you are not, you will go home empty handed.

Very simple really.

I have learnt this fact after many years of hunting.

When I kill a game animal, I deserve the credit.

All of the credit.

Me.

Not you.

Not nobody else.

Me.

I'm the one that made the shot.

I'm the one that paid the daily rate and the trophy fee.

Not the tracker.

Not the PH.

Not the outfitter.

Not the game scout.

Not you.

Me.

Only me.

You gotta problem widdat?

You bettah not.

Or when I stop thumpin' my chest, I'm gonna kick your ass.

The only thing that I would add, is that in addition to luck, you can "hedge your bet" a bit by picking an area or concession that has trophy quality animals or that is know to have bigger than average trophy quality. Example would be the Zambia and Matetsi area for a lot of 40+ sable, and areas that are not heavily hunted. Other than that, it is like Saeed said- just luck! Sort of like getting a 60 inch kudu, if they don't normally come from that area, your odds go down. There are certain "honey holes" that produce some very nice trophies. This is especially true in fishing, but it happens in hunting too. You can also "hedge your bet" by hunting hard, get up early and hunt away from the truck, walk a lot. Don't hang around camp and wait for something to happen. Get out and check baits, cover a lot of area, some time you luck up and bump into something big.

I count myself lucky if the hunt gos well and even more lucky if we bag something special.

Such vitriol directed towards me for posting I did not expect.


Lionhunter,

Are you the self-appointed arbiter of this site? If you persist in using three syllable words such as "asinine" you would do well to learn their proper spelling. You strike me as a doltish and self-important boor.

Mark H. Young,

I have reviewed many of your posts since you chose to attack me and will only say that I am suspicious of those who frequent websites such as this in order to promote their businesses and seek financial gain.

drwes,

I never posted that practitioners of chiropractic "medicine" are quacks, I posted that my family physician had told me that chiropractic medicine is quackery. However, given the propensity of chiropractic practitioners to favor spinal adjustments over antibiotics and vaccines, in denial of well-founded science, I am inclined to agree with him.

To the rest who post that I should find a better crowd to hang with and that they have never encountered "chest thumpers" I offer the SCI record book and the types who hunt with a tape around their necks in the hope of making it into that record book. Perhaps "chest thumping" was a poor choice of words but there seems to me to be plenty of misplaced chest thumping and false bravado in the hunting world.

Unusual first post Chobe! "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." Very maturely handled by all and I agree whole heartedly with the "TEAM" effort that hunting dangerous game in Africa entails. In OZ there are a lot of us that have and do hunt Buffalo on our own.. no PH, Tracker etc. It is illegal to do it in Africa thus the use of the PH and his entourage.

lets call it a partnership one brings knowledge and experience and the other the money if it is successful both benefit and get the credit

simple as that

Not everyone here uses a PH for dangerous game. Given the choice, though, I would if a decent one were available.

Chode Bushduck,
In general your comments are entertaining. However when it comes to Chiropractic you are way off track. On a frequent basis in my Chiropractic practice I work with and refer patients to GP's, Neurologists, Orthopedic specialist etc and vice versa they refer patients to my office for care. I have many medical doctors, dentists,and other health care providers as patients and they sure as hell don,t see it your way. Your narrow minded outdated comments are bullshit.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
When I kill a game animal, I deserve the credit.

All of the credit.

Me.

Not you.

Not nobody else.

Me.

I'm the one that made the shot.

I'm the one that paid the daily rate and the trophy fee.

Not the tracker.

Not the PH.

Not the outfitter.

Not the game scout.

Not you.

Me.

Only me.

You gotta problem widdat?

You bettah not.

Or when I stop thumpin' my chest, I'm gonna kick your ass.

MR, sometimes it is hard to tell when you are kidding!

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by remglenn:
Unusual first post Chobe! "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

Great post!

JPK

MR,

You seriously crack me up dude.

Ugh...I mean that politely...

You're not gonna kick my ass are you?...

Jeff

Chobe:

I have to agree with you that Chiropractors are quacks. Total snake oil-- scam medicine. They rank number 2 in the all time scam artists.....it is undisputable that lawyers are number 1.


Imagine that...lawyers and chiropractors joining forces to scam insurance companies......really. This has no effect on the cost of healthcare. Frivolous lawsuits have no connection with astronomical cost of healthcare.


You are correct regarding "chest thumping." But do not take that seriously; it is great entertainment.

Be mindful if you think your PH is superman, after all of my hunts I always have a shoot off with the PH and staff. The hair on the back of your neck will stand up when you realize how poor PHs shoot. The trackers are worse. The cooks seems to hold their own.


dale


PS: I can track as good as any of natives. I can track a heard of buffalo with the best of them. Elephant too. No problem finding hippo. I can drive a safari truck.....what else do you need.

I suggest AR members send me to Africa to prove/disprove I am the best tracker.