quote:

Originally posted by JohnTheGreek:
Here's a pic of what I suspect to be the same rifle being shot. Looks like fun huh!

It could be worse. I was imagining those pointy manual hammers being stuck in the bone of my forehead. Actually the muzzle rise in that pic is not bad, but the rifle does not look to be in full recoil.

quote:

Posted by Atkinson:
To say that a buffalo dies just as fast with an arrow hole in his lungs as with a bullet is just not so...I have witnessed both on several ocassions and Buff shot with bows, small caliber rifles die slower deaths, the less internal damage the longer a Buffalo will live..

Ray,

I may be wet behind the ears relative to your experience, but on this I have to respectfully disagree. I am sure many others will take your side, but here is my experience....

I have killed a few bison with each of arrows, small calibre rifles and large calibre rifles. If shot through the heart and lungs, they all took about the same amount of time to die, give or take a few seconds. Its really amazing how quickly an animal will "bleed out" and collapse with a well placed arrow (heart-lung, or double lung).

The real big advantage with the large calibres is that you can break bones and/or disrupt the CNS, and disable large muscle groups. That gets them to dieing on the ground more quickly, rather than walking around til their blood pressure drops so far that they collapse. Tissue damage in marginally placed shots also gives a major advantage to large calibre rifles.

If you don't take out the lungs or heart & lungs with a big bore, buff can still take a long time to die. You only have to look as far as the handiest Mark Sullivan video to see evidence of that.

Against game that would just as soon trample you as run away, the advantages of broken bones, disruption of CNS, etc, go up exponentially, so in that regard I think we are in agreement. And when you factor in the lower likelihood of the arrow being perfectly placed in a DG hunting senario, the curve just keeps getting steeper! I think most of us would prefer to have a cape buffalo bleed out and expire on the ground rather than on its feet!

Cheers,
Canuck

ps: on the topic of muzzleloaders and cape buffalo, you guys will probably recall that Jim Shockey whacked three of them in Tanzania last year with his Knight .52 cal Disc Extreme. He's had the video out since last fall too.

I say "why not?", .....as long as you are prepared to settle for "a buffalo", .....as long as you are prepared for a suitable proper stalk (and 7 out of 10 will have a "screw up"),
......you have a second flintlock "ready to go" with your gunbearer, .......you are well backed up with a good P.H., ......you are prepared to have to return due to lack of suitable set-ups the first (and maybe second time), ......and you family is prepared for your possible demise! ....Yes, it is possible! ....and first of all, read Gordon Cummings' books to realize how many animals in the old days were not recovered .......like 70%! ~Arctic~

Well put, Arctic. Hunting isn't only about 'us'. It's about the animal as well as all the others who are engaged with us. Since I, the hunter, am the one who begins the process I have a moral duty to make sure that, to every extent possible, it is done well and correctly. Sometimes Fate gets away from me but you may be absolutely sure that I won't cut the old broad any more slack than I can avoid. In all my hunting exactly one head of game wasn't recovered. I doubt that I will be able to maintain that record forever but you can be damned sure that I will do everything possible to keep it.

Here's the only black powder cartridge that I think is adequate for Buff.

The cartridge on the right is a 375 H&H, the one in the middle is a 50 BMG and the one on left is "adequate"

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LaDouma

If your muzzle loader is up to the task and if you're mentally set, then just go for it. If this is something that's your heart's desire, then just starting planning and do it. If not, you'll probably regret not doing it years later. If your confidence level is high and you've been whacking critters on a regular basis, go do the deed and report back to us.

Gentlemen

I posted these pictures before.
A 4 bore will do on buff...
This is the story.
http://www.african-hunter.com/4-bore_part_i.htm

Cheers,

André

As demonstrated during the war of Northern aggression (civil war to the yankees) a rifle with Whitworth rifleing is capable of taking a very hard bullet of long for caliber. This gave extreme accuracy and SD. I would imagine a 500 gn 58 cal. hardened to 15-18 BN would work on buff. These rifles can still be bought from Dixie Gun Works.

Maybe this 8 bore could be converted to flintlock for the hunt:

My late friend Tony Barnes of Twin Falls, Id. had a 4 bore double and I have shot it many times. It was an experience to say the least, I believe the gun was more of a threat than any elephant I have seen..

A few years ago on one of my stops by Champlin Firearms in Enid, Oklahoma to gawk at their inventory of double rifles, they were making a single shot 4 bore that they were willing to show folks. It was a truely stunning weapon. It was a breach loaded gun and it was very short and heavy. They were making the brass cartridges for this gun as well. The size of the brass cartridges would scare you. I may remember wrong, but I think the gunsmith said it shot a 900 grain round ball out of the cartridge. The gunsmith said a 4 bore would or could knock a man down when shot and would give the shooter a concussion. He said it was a gun used after everything else had failed..it was designed to stop an elephant or buffalo with one shot at close range.

*PS: I read John Millar's story above in Andre's post after I made the above above post, so the gunsmith I talked to may have told me that the gun he was making shot 1500 gr (or larger) bullets..but I just could not allow myself to remember someone talking about a 1800 grain bullet!.*

quote:

Originally posted by rwj:
A few years ago on one of my stops by Champlin Firearms in Enid, Oklahoma to gawk at their inventory of double rifles, they were making a single shot 4 bore that they were willing to show folks. ... I may remember wrong, but I think the gunsmith said it shot a 900 grain round ball out of the cartridge.

A four bore should be 1/4 of a pound per ball - about 1750 grs - 3 times heavier that a 12 bore ball.

Brent

Brent: You are right...as I put in a post script above...I surely did not remember correctly...the gunsmith may have said that they shot 2000 grain bullets and I just blocked it out! I mean, in normal conversation, the idea of an 1800 grain bullet shot from a shoulder fired gun just sounds, well, it just doesn't sound right..so my brain blocked it out.

rwj,
Your brain is not stupid!

A .45-110-550 would be more than adequate.
Brent

quote:

Originally posted by rwj:
Brent: You are right...as I put in a post script above...I surely did not remember correctly...the gunsmith may have said that they shot 2000 grain bullets and I just blocked it out! I mean, in normal conversation, the idea of an 1800 grain bullet shot from a shoulder fired gun just sounds, well, it just doesn't sound right..so my brain blocked it out.

That's a 4 bore case in the picture I posted next to the 50 BMG case. Butch Searcy says that the one he built can load a 2,000 grain bullet in it.

.

Doc White did it in 19994 with a .50, not a flintlock, but a muzzleloader non the less

"The summer of ‘94 saw the White Muzzleloading System in Africa, where the game is said to be bigger and tougher. This time I used a Super 91 in .504 caliber, loading a 600 grain SUPERSLUG over 140 grains P Pyrodex. Cape buffalo hunting turned out to be right scary, as they fear nothing.

I eventually took a good bull with a single shot to the lungs at 60 yards. The bull was almost nose on, looking at us curiously. The big bullet landed just inside the shoulder blade, deflated the front (left) lung, punctured the big vessels coming off the heart and perforated the back end of the opposite lung. He whirled around a few times, ran in a tight circle and keeled over in a cloud of dust."



Doc with Cape Buffalo, Africa , 1994. Any Cape Buffalo you get with a muzzleloader is a good trophy

quote:

Originally posted by Walker:
Doc with Cape Buffalo, Africa , 1994. Any Cape Buffalo you get with a muzzleloader is a good trophy

Glad you said that because I was going to ask.

Thanks to all that have posted on this topic. I've been learning a bunch about loads, loading, and the art and skill of hunting from the responses.

I am still interested in building the rifle and seeing what it will actually do with regard to velocity and accuracy. It's round ball gun is very accurate and performs well for such things as deer and elk. I would't hesitate to use it for moose, but being in brown bear country with a flintlock caused my wife to get me a percussion rifle that regulates with a 550 gr conical bullet and 120 grains of FFG. Doc White's bullets have taken anything I've used them on and the percussion rifle has never failed, even during sitka deer hunts on Chichagoff Island in the rain during October. Didn't ever have a close encounter with a brown bear though.

South Africa was very dry and didn't seem to present the humidity concern.

I enjoyed the comments regarding the ethics of the hunt and the consideration for the PH, trackers and the buffalo. I'm not interested in getting crosswise with any of them.

Stay tuned for news as the saga unfolds.

500grains. Can you send me a PM about the 8 bore?

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:
rwj,
Your brain is not stupid!

A .45-110-550 would be more than adequate.
Brent

That's what I was thinking, especially since a 45-120-550 worked so well on the bison last month.

LaDouma,

The 8 bore is not mine; it is for sale at a gun store in Montana. Here is the link:

http://www.hallowellco.com/antique_guns.htm

The ad:

Bell, London. Percussion Single Shot 8-bore 32" smoothbore, octagon-to-round barrel. Light croll engraved, island lock. Brass-ferruled ramrod. Weight: 15lbs. Solid. $2K

500grain

Thanks for the quick response. I've been traveling and haven't been able to keep up with the discussions.

.

Hi Alf,

Realizing that we are talking about a small sample size here, what I find interesting about your last post is the ratios of killed/wounded for some of these animals. For example, four elephant bagged and four wounded giving a ratio of 1. Now consider Hippo, seventeen bagged and six wounded...a higher ratio of 2.83 killed for every one wounded implying that hippo are easier to kill with a front stuffer than elephant. Fine. What is interesting to me is the ratio associated with smaller game. For example, a ratio of 2 for Kudu, 2.5 for wildebeest, 2 for warthog, an abyssmal .66 for eland, zero for buffalo, zero for hyena, 2.75 for Zebra etc. From this data should we conclude that eland are harder to kill than elephant or that it is harder to kill wildebeest, zebra, warthog or buffalo than it is to kill a hippo with a black powder weapon? Of course not. I think what this data does illustrate is that Louis Trichardt spent a lot of time trying to make his shots count on animals that could very conceivably stomp him. The case of hippo also illustrates clearly that taking the time to make a well placed shot yielded a higher relative success rate. This data shows that he wasted a lot of powder taking pot shots at smaller game that was likely more abundant. He didn't have to worry about paying trophy fees for those wounded and lost after all. While clearly a black powder weapon is not ideal, your data speaks as much to the mentality of the hunter in this era (and to the necessity of a well placed shot) as it does to the efficacy of the weapon.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

John,

Could you post contact info for that guy in Colorado who builds 8 bore muzzle loaders? And what is his pricing like? Thank you.

500,

How are things back home? I kinda miss the mountains this time of year you know. Anyway, Jim Gefroh's email address is JGefroh@aol.com and he is about a year out on his rifles at the moment. Jim will build in either the English or the Germanic style (which I prefer) and his work is just fabulous. Long before I could afford it I considered one of his rifles and drooled over the pictures for months. My current order from him will be done (insha allah...god willing) by December for another Yukon Territory bison hunt in January.
Understand that Jim's rifles are not inexpensive. They start at $3200 and go up from there depending on how fancy you want to get. I ordered a basic (note that "basic" for Jim is not basic for most gunsmiths) Jaeger 8 bore with some very minor upgrades. Now, if you wanted to do an 8 bore on the cheap you could go with an underhammer rifle from underhammers.com at less than $1000 I believe. Hope this all helps.

Best,

JohnTheGreek

Thank you John. The mountains are full of snow and Snowbird will probably be open until Memorial Day weekend. It snowed 2x this week at my house. Meanwhile the stores are all full of shorts and swimming suits.

Does Jim build guns to shoot bullets as well as balls?

quote:

The time of incapacitation from a broadhead wound is not statistically different to a comparable bullet wound.

When it comes to Cape Buffalo though and I have killed some with my bow the anatomy of the chest wall specifically needs to be overcome.

The ribs overlap and are very much thicker than your Bison. In fact the Bison ribs are actually quite small and feeble as I have shown in pictures I took at the Smithsonian.

Thanks for the corroboration ALF. I was not aware of that study. My opinion was just formed from personal experience.

I was just speaking generally about "time to death". I understand the difference in anatomy between the bison and cape buffalo and wasn't advocation the use of bow on the cape buff in my previous post. Not that it couldn't reasonably be done though! If your bow/arrow combo is adequate and you don't lob arrows from 50 to 60 yards, one rib doesn't offer a lot of resistance.

Cheers,
Canuck