I've been scheming on a cape buffalo hunt with s flintlock.

I'm thinking that this .58 caliber barrel would make a great rifle for taking a cape buffalo. I'd be interested in folks with experience with taking such critters ideas on bullet style and loads.

I have a great rifle that worked really well for taking plains game. It took a waterbuck, wildebeeste, kudu and impala. The waterbuck and wildebeeste are big enough to rate in the SCI book. All are trophies of a lifetime!

What's your thoughts for bullet style and loads?

You got more B---- than I friend....I'll cheer you on however.

I have no idea why but that idea really appeals to me......if you ever do it, I'd love to see a video of it!!!!

.58 cal flintlock for buff? I think not! Maybe a .72 . . . And you better harden the bullet good as well. A 10 ga. would better and I personally would want a second barrel very badly! Remember, if things go south you are morally responsible for anything dreadful that happens to either the PH or the unarmed staff.

I think it is a stupid idea, but I defer to your extensive African hunting experience. Kindly post your plains game pictures and gear. I'm sure you took pictures.

H. C.

I really don't know why but this idea intrigues me......Ken Stewart of Stewart Bullets makes a lot of muzzle loading bullets nowadays and you might like to talk to him about what he would recommend.......just send me an e-mail if you need his contact details.

I like the idea of shooting a buffalo with an 8 bore muzzle loader pushing 1250 grain conical bullets at 1300 fps.

But a .58 cal is a mite tiny for my personal taste. However, it would make a great elk gun.

Didnt Jim Carmichel and another fellow take a 6 bore one time? I dont remember the story behind it. I agree with 500 grns ( did I say that! ), a 58 is a tad small, but an 8 bore sure would be neat!

I understand that the .577 rifle using smokeless powder aout of a double rifle has been used successfully to take cape buffalo.

I fail to see why a properly designed conical bullet of 800-1000 grains at 1600 fps would not have significant penetration especially if cast suitably hard.

I have discussed this with professional hunters in South Africa and they are willing to back me up. While I am interested in the prospect, I am not foolish nor unwilling to modify my firearm of choice.

LaDouma,

577 Nitro Express ballistics are as follow: 750 grain bullet at 2050 fps

Unfortunately, all blackpoweder rounds will lack the velocity needed for really great penetration, especially on hard bone. And lead bullets, even if hardened with tin or soldering rod, can be quickly chewed to nothingness when they strike buffalo vertegrae, a row of buffalo molars, a shoulder blade at an angle, or an angled buffalo skull. Of course on a nice broadside shot the load you mention would work great, but we don't always get the shot we hope for.

In the latest edition of Safari magazine (Mar/Apr 2005) there is an article by Art Dannenberg on hunting buffalo in Zimbabwe with a .72 cal. percussion muzzle loader. He was using 540 grain round balls and they appear to have worked. He also had a .62 cal. flintlock that he was shooting plains game with.

I would think if you could get a nice shot behind the shoulder with such a round, it would work fine. But any other shot that might require some good penetration would be a worry. Then again I'm not experienced with hunting DG, but I do know black powder...penetration--due to lack of velocity--is not its strongest point.

Best,

JohnTheGreek

Sherman Bell of the "Finding out for myself..." series in The Double Gun Journal has an article in the Spring 2005 issue that described taking a number of water buffalo with his Greener .577 black powder double proofed for cordite. It's the 2-3/4" case. He used IMR 4198 and got 1,700 ft/sec with a 560 grain hardened lead (Linotype alloy) long, flat-nosed projectile for about 3,600 ft/lbs. No problem downing water buffalo with great penetration including into the neck vertebrae. He did not shoot any really big (one-ton buff), he notes.

Some questions arise. Can your .58 flintlock put out enough muzzle energy to meet the legal requirements where you plan to hunt? Are you using round ball or conical.

Might be interesting to hear a word from South Africa or Zim where the Boere and his Roere did Cape Buffalo in days of old. Regards

quote:

Originally posted by LaDouma:
I've been scheming on a cape buffalo hunt with s flintlock.

I'm thinking that this .58 caliber barrel would make a great rifle for taking a cape buffalo. I'd be interested in folks with experience with taking such critters ideas on bullet style and loads.

I have a great rifle that worked really well for taking plains game. It took a waterbuck, wildebeeste, kudu and impala. The waterbuck and wildebeeste are big enough to rate in the SCI book. All are trophies of a lifetime!

What's your thoughts for bullet style and loads?

LaDouma

Mike McMichael , president of Powerbelt Bullets hunted a cape buffalo with me using a 50 cal . 525 gn bullet at 1400 fps . His bullet went through the heart and penetrated a further 6 inches or so . Buffalo ran about 15 paces , fell down and belowed . Sort of screwed up my self-figured ballistics theory . Contact Mike at mike@pbbullets.com , and ask him to tell you about it .

Brad

Actually, I believe that during the days of the Voertrek, cape buffalo had suffered severe decline in numbers because of a continent-wide outbreak of rinderpest. When the BP guys did go DG hunting, their success rate was poor. I refer everyone to the relevent opening chapters of Gregor Woods' Rifles for Africa for a discussion of that kind of hunting. Remember, most of the early African hunting was done on horseback so that you could run up, shoot, run away, reload and repeat as needed or until the poor beast wandered off into thick bush and expired of its wounds a few days later.

I see no reason not to do it if thats what you want and the PH agrees to it...He probably has a big double rifle to protect you...

I would try it, except I don't want a PH to pull my a$$ out of the fire...If I could hunt a Buffalo alone with a flintlock then I would try it, same with archery, but they won't allow that.

My question is why?The "old" hunters" in their books report that they hunted -with various success,with the old weapons - because they had none else,no choice.The result was often not pretty.That translates into: even when you are a good hunter, + a good shot, and know which shots not to take - you get at times bad results.That with DG is asking for trouble,for yourself and worse for the people around you or the people in the same county.
If one wants danger - why not fly around in a plane a bit - and drain all fuel prior to take-off- then see whether you can make it to the next airport.Its a statistical game,it proves not that you are smart or a good pilot.It proves something else that I dont have to spell out.

2 friends that i went to africa last summer with are going back to hunt buffalo with 4 bore muzzleloaders me id rather use a 375 or preferably a 416 rigby

If a Pedersoli ( 45/70 double blackpowder ) is OK for the job then I dont see a major problem !!! unless some old timers can correct me ...

This buff was no match for the Pedersoli blackpowder ... the only basic requirement with powder is GET UP CLOSE so you can see the eyes and virtually smell the breath

Peter

We had a hunter try to take a water buffalo with a .50 flintlock with a round ball. I tried to talk him out of it, since in my experience it wasn't even adequate for a boar hog. He shot a nice bull, three times and we looked for it for days. I found it laying down and we could have finished it with his .375, but he insisted on trying to take it with the flintlock and by the time he got it loaded the buff was gone, not to be found. We tried the same gun on a boar hog and it wasn't good. The ball flattened severely and that was the hardest ball that he could find commercially. We did have a hunter take a huge bull a couple years ago with a .64 percussion rifle and 790 grain conical bullets. The bullet stopped on the far shoulder, but the buff still covered quite a bit of ground before dying.

I would not guide you with such a rifle. I am not a PH who wants to shoot my clients animals! and nor do I hunt semi domesticated animals behind fences...

As a child I hunted extensively with a martini Henry carbine 480grn bullet and originally 85grns of powder (most of my ammo was smokless ammo made up for malitia forces during WWI)

Lovely round for Kudu.

Have a Gibbs farqueson. 540grn hardened and pointed bullet at about 1250fps. If I could pick my shots I would use it on eland.

Have backed one client who took a buff with a 12 bore percussion rifle. Had to settle for a 32" bull instead of anything better as that was the only "perfect" oportunity we had seen in 9 days of hard hunting. Yes it worked. Bullet behind the shoulder and the bull ran about 700m.

If you consider thaqt most experienced PH's would quibble about a hot loaded .45-70 I would want a proper African Muzzel loader to hunt buff with. Goeff Geffrogh (if that is how you spell his name) makes equisite flintlocks suitable for buffalo

quote:

Originally posted by LaDouma:
I fail to see why a properly designed conical bullet of 800-1000 grains at 1600 fps would not have significant penetration especially if cast suitably hard.

I'd be happy to try it. But you will never get those ballistics with black powder. 800 grs at 1600 won't happen in a .58. That's just my prediction. Have you got any data to the contrary?

I'd happily shoot a buffalo with a .45-70 but on this forum, that's a big no-no. The .58 flintlock ought to be far more so.

Brent

PS. A .58 with a 550-600 gr bullet at 1400 might be feasibly - I'm sure it would be deadly. Research tempered lead bullets and wad materials. These two things will be critical and you cannot have the first w/o the second.

what's the big deal with a flintlock for buff? Archers have been sticking them in the ribs for years

Not on AR.

Brent

The big deal is archers and black powder users have a back up PH...Howard Hill even had to let the PH shoot one of his famed bow kills..

I think the reloading factor with a muzzle loader is the broken spoke, I know a 58 or bigger would probably kill one in time, but a Buffalo that is agressive can be on you like a duck on a Junebug, Been there, done that.

Everything is fine, until the Buffalo charges, then can you load a muzzle loader fast enough to stop him, No you cannot..nor can you stop him with an arrow...

so if you have no problem with allowing the PH to intervene on your kill, then I would say its OK, if he is agreeable, but why would anyone be satisfied with that..I personally do not want any interference with a kill, regardless of the circumstances, short of the minute he lowers his head to hook...That has been my contention for years and I may someday regret it, but I doubt that any PH would allow that to take place and would intervene at the very last minute......

most the archers I know whom have killed a buff have done it with 1 shot from a hide or tree near a waterhole.
that buff dies just as fast with a hole in his lungs from a shaft or bullet....the lungs don't know what made the hole.
I will not argue the point that no archer is going to stop a charge at ground level, but thew question this thread was based on was it possible to hunt flintlock for buff and yes it is. no differently than with a bow, but there are limitations one must agree to (sitting up a tree or in a blind near water) should they wish to do it.

On both of my buffalo hunts the animals were out in the wide, open grassland and that's where they stayed for the entire hunt. Ambushing at a waterhole or sitting up in a tree would have resulted in a long wait to no purpose. In other areas things will be different but frankly, a huge portion of the fun of the hunt is the long stalk, on hands and knees through the swamp, if necessary. Sitting up waiting for the buff to come to me so that I could say, "See this one, I shot him with a flintlock!" only to have the guest respond, "Kind of little, isn't he?" because that was the only size that showed up is simply not my cup of tea. Neither is getting killed and, yes, I have needed my PH to get me out of a jam, thank-you very much!

ole sarge why are you so hostile/ I don't care if you shot 2 or 20 matters little to me. And yes I've crept thru the grass and thorns into the midst of them to be covered in dust as they busted us not once not twice but several times before I blew a 1/2" hole thru hide into flesh and bone. BUT had I wished to do it with a bow by accepted bow hunting methods I doubt I'd be any less thrilled with a 32" bull as I would with the 40" I now have. It is after all the hunt not the score that burns itself into one's memory.

Each of us has to make our own ethical decisions about the how and the why of the hunt. To make that decision, though, requires IMO more reflection than whether or not something can be done. The client and the PH aren't alone in the hunt. The animal is too, and when a shot is taken that can't be depended on to reliably and humanely kill the beast something needs to be rethought. That's why my emphatic call for something larger than .58 cal. Others involved in the hunt are the trackers. They may be able to run faster than I can (it doesn't take much for that) but they aren't armed and if a buff decides to go after one of them, what are you going to do about it with a front stuffer. Early hunters in Africa who only had BP to work with acted like Plains Indians shooting from horseback. At least they could get out of the way when an elephant turned and there were no trackers to be responsible for. I have no problem with bow-hunting for plains game and for those who love the smell of white smoke, muzzle-loaders are just the ticket. But my personal stance is that hunting dangerous game in such a manner is a stunt. I've been disagreed with on this subject by men I count among my friends and whose ability I respect but that's where I stand.

As others have said, it’s up to you, BUT –

99.99% of the people who ever tried to shoot a Cape Buffalo with a flintlock are dead!



Never mind that they were all born 200 years ago, they are still dead. Word to the wise…

Adventure 1,
To say that a buffalo dies just as fast with an arrow hole in his lungs as with a bullet is just not so...I have witnessed both on several ocassions and Buff shot with bows, small caliber rifles die slower deaths, the less internal damage the longer a Buffalo will live..

Apparantly anyone who has a opposite opinnion to yours is "hostile" IYO...but I have known Sarge for a number of years on this forum and I have never found him hostile. I would say that you both have a dog in this fight and disagreeing with you is not a hostility..

I personally disagree with your synopsis almost entirely, but I respect your opinnion and your right to express yourself...

I use a .58 percussion as my primary whitetail rifle, but I sure wouldn't use it on dangerous game. I think October Country, or something to that affect, makes a rifle that will handle stiff loads. I have used a 560 grain TC bullet and 110-120 gr of FFg and bullet drop is substantial at 75-100 yards, my max is 60 yards with good accuracey. Also, at 120 grains the hammer will recock itself, which is why I now hunt with about 90 grains of powder. A really high end custom gun might work if you have enough barrel length to burn all of the powder, and a big enough "flash" to ignite it consistantly. I haven't chronoed my rifle, will have to do that one day.

Recently I have been reading F.C. Selous' 'A Hunters Wanderings'- where he hunts elephant, rino, and buff with BP 4 & 10 bores. And after reading that, well... There's a reason the .450 NE was a big hit when it was introdued in 1898.

If someone wants to hunt with BP or a bow - go for it! Whatever floats your boat. But there's no way they can compare to a good modern cartridge.

quote:

Originally posted by Wes Pryor:
If someone wants to hunt with BP or a bow - go for it! Whatever floats your boat. But there's no way they can compare to a good modern cartridge.

Of course, no one ever SAID they compare to a modern cartridge, but that seems to be a point missed here over and over again.

I don't use anything but blackpowder myself (I have not hunting Africa yet), and cannot imagine why anyone would want to use anything else. FOR ME, it works well enough.

But then some would use a shoulder-launched missile if they could.

Brent

Black powder gun suitable for cape buffalo (8 bore):

I have shot several buffalo, with a couple different weapons and seen a lot more shot with, bows, muzzleloaders and a variety of rifles and in my experience, if the weapon is adequate enough for the job and the hunter is up to it, they all work surprisingly well. You just don't have as much room for error with the bows and ml's, so very few hunters are up to it. I will say this, hunting for buffalo with a bow is right on the edge, but is totally practical with the right bows and arrows, the problem is that not many guys want to spend the time and effort to have the right gear for the job.

500,

One of us should buy that! I think that since my deposit is already down on a Gefroh 8 bore front stuffer, YOU are the one to offer the above weapon a home! I believe that is the same rifle that placed well at the Vintagers/Gold Medal Concours events a few years back is it not?

Best,

JohnTheGreek

John,

I don't know if it is the same rifle or not. But since it costs the same as a hunt and I would rather go on a hunt,...

Here's a pic of what I suspect to be the same rifle being shot. Looks like fun huh!

Best,

JohnTheGreek