In about two weeks, Lord willing, I'll be back in Africa with lion at the top of the menu. Lions have been taken with everything from .257 to .600. Taylor was a big bore fanatic but felt that lions actually succumbed quicker with a faster 416 than with larger rifles (how could anybody who hunted stark naked except for a turbin ever be wrong?). We've had those (Art Alphin) who advocate very soft, frangible bullets in order to maximize shock. Peter Capstick apparently disagreed with this, complaining that the Winchester soft point in 458 never exited a lion on a side shot-very little blood loss, making followup difficult.

On safari we usually compromise, takingone or two guns which will do double duty-taking a variety of game. If you were going JUST for lion (and no, you don't have to shoot your own bait), what would you use? Would it be a large bore for its sheer muscle and stopping power or would it be a faster 375 or 416? Would the bullet be soft or hard? Scoped for precise placement of the first shot or unscoped to allow for quicker use in thick cover? Or would you use a double?

John-
Having taken only one simba surely doesn't make any expert but my vote would go towards the 375 or 416 with something like a Nosler or Swift bullet.
Knowing that we share a common big bore (450 Dakota) makes me wonder why not just use that? I surely will on my next trip! 500grs of Bear Claw at 2450fps will knock all nine lives out of a lion rather quickly!
My own lion was taken at 50yds with my 416 Rigby loaded with 400gr Bear Claws. First shot knocked him flatter than a flitter, second was for insurance only.

John,
You know then that you are in the John Taylor club when it comes to lions. Are there other things about you which I didn't know?? What do you wear while lion hunting?

Of all the animals in Africa the lion is the one that I respect the most (don't ever have any plans to hunt elephant) and the one I would want the largest rifle I could possibly handle to tackle. I feel perfectly fine using a .375 on buff but when we had several close encounters on my last trip with lions (not on my quota) I was wishing for something bigger. If I were to hunt lion only, it would be at least a .416 of some sort with a Nosler Partition or Swift A-Frame.

I agree that cats are subject to hi-velocity as they are a high strung animal but keep in mind that from the front they are as tough to penitrate as a cape buffalo with lots of very tough muscle...and sometimes when your looking at thier front, your in a world of hurt!!

My sure nuff Lion killer is the 416 Rem or Rigby, with a 400 gr. Woodleigh, Nosler, Northfork, at 2400 to 2600 FPS...I suspect Gerards HP would work also, driven as fast as possible (also the Northfork at top vel)

I wouldn't get to carried away with that Hi-vel crap on Lions, but use a moderation approach, such as the above...I would use any softpoint that works on Buffalo...

It's a wonder that Alphin didn't get someone kill or injured with that " Lion Load " and I use that term very loosley...Personally I always thought he hung his hat in La-La land...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

John-
I damned sure wear more than a turbin!

John, When Capstick's book came out my heart was broken. I'd always had Taylor on this high pedestal.

Ray, How ofteb do you see exit wounds when 416's are used with premium bullets? Have you seen a lack of "shock" effect when the 458 was used?

The only information I can share concerns one large male lion in Zimbabwe. I was shooting a 375 HH with 300 grain trophy bonded bearclaws. The first shot was from the front and the bullet was removed from the left hip just under the skin. The second shot broke both shoulders from the side. The third shot was a solid to far back and just passed through with little damage. The fourth and fifth shots were finishers on an imobilized but still very alive and not happy cat. If we had just let the lion go he would have died from either of the first two but he was heading for the long grass with his girlfriend and our PH felt it was better to take him in the short grass. I must say I was very suprised to see a lion hit that hard move off. When I was finishing him he was pushing himself towards us with hind legs jaws snapping shut and growling. I think cats are hard to drop without a spine shot but will die in due time if left alone. If i could afford to go again I would take my 375 because I know where the first shot will go. Good luck and enjoy.

John,
Thats a hard question to answer, how often?

Best I can tell you is most 416 will pass through on a broadside shot and few with a lenthwise shot..If you break both shoulders they will not normally pass through and if you break one shoulder its iffy, and I'd venture most of the time not...thats the best I can answer you, lots of varibles involved...

M,
I agree that a 375 is potent Lion medicine, it has the penitration needed and the bullet weight to back it up.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

John:

Even though I have hunted lion on three occasions I have never popped one, so...I have ZERO qualifications to comment but that has never stopped me before!

I would agree with Taylor. A .416 with a 400 gr. soft would be just the ticket. I wouldn't use a .375 for no other reason than I consider it iffy if there is a need to follow one up.

And regardless of the implications, I think the world's biggest exaggerator, Capstick, failed to provide the evidence. You'll have to read my book. I'd place Taylor as one tough mother, regardless. Most importantly he knew what he was talking about.

I wish you the best of luck on your lion hunt.

Will

John,

I wish you the best of luck on your hunt.

I have shot 5 lions, two with a 416 Rigby Improved using the 400 grain Bear Claw bullet, and 3 using my 375/404 with the 300 grains Barnes bullet.

I think the furthest one went was about 7 yards before expiring.

Personally, I would always go with a well constructed bullet rather than one designed to expand rapidly like the Lion Load from A-Square.

They will probably work most of the time, and they will surely fail on a few occasions. It is those occasions that I like to avoid if I can.

Funny enough, I shot two lionesses, one with the 375 and one with the 416. Both were shot in the chest, and both did exactly the same. They started running around in circles within the space of about 2 yards, and both got an additional bullet, although that was not really necessary, I just have this instinctive reaction to keep the bullets pumping in while a lion is still moving.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

I shot three lions in the chest, different angles, one frontal shot. .416 / 400 and .458 / 500 Woodleighs, just soft enough for a one shot kill.

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I've not hunted lions yet, though I've had one in my 'sights' at 60 yards.

I'd use my .375 with 300gr Swift A-Frames on any lion, any time. If you have a .375 already, you should not buy a .416 just to hunt lion.

Mind you, a .500 might seem puny if the lion is charging

George

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Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!

I took my one and only lion with a .300 Winchester loaded with 180 gr. Fail-Safe bullets. I shot him broadside in the left shoulder at about fifty yards. At the shot, he performed a high backwards somersault and crashed. He acted like he didn't even know what hit him.

Even so, I harbor no illusions that a .300 magnum is a good all-purpose lion rifle. In the future, I'll be shooting a .375 H&H or a .416 Remington for these cats. I really don't know how you can beat calibers in this general range for lions under most hunting conditions.

By the way, one PH I've hunted with shared an absolute nightmare story about A-Square's "Lion Load". It seems this PH had a client who used this ammunition in his .375 for a big male lion, only the bullet disintegrated on the surface and did not get inside. Result: A lion that had to be stopped at point-blank range, and a very shaken client and PH.

AD

Allen:

Rats! I was hoping you were going to say the 300 Win. was THE ideal lion round, so we could all argue about it!

Having never taken a lion and realizing that lever guns get no respect on this board (with some justification), it is probably of some significace that Ol' TR was able to justify the .405 win in an 1895 Winchester.
That said, for all practical purposes, I think a .416 Rem (or equivalent) would be great!

[This message has been edited by JohnTheGreek (edited 08-21-2001).]

[This message has been edited by JohnTheGreek (edited 08-21-2001).]

JohnDL,

Last time I went I used a .375 H&H with 300 grain Nosler Partitons. Next time I go I'll use the same.
Rich Elliott

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Ethiopian Rift Valley Safaris

John the Greek,
Have you read Teddy boys accounts of the .405...He and his kid wounded more game than any one hunter in the history of hunting apparantly.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Allen Day....just think of the memories they must have after surviving a lion charge. Not something you would do on purpose ... after surviving his first battle, Winston Churchill said "there's nothing quite as invigorating as being shot at without result".

Hi Ray,

Although distasteful, this isn't terribly surprising since . . .

1) TR and Kermit weren't paying for wounded game on a trophy fee basis the way we would today. I'm sure this led to some iffy shot selection on their part.

2)Bullet construction was undoubtedly mediocre.

3) The .405 is a cartridge of pretty narrow usefulness that was applied by TR and son outside of its proper range.

It is clearly maniacal, given early 20th century loadings to use this cartridge on anything bigger than lion or leopard (though TR obviously did as there is that classic photo of TR, a rhino, and the .405), but given proper bullets it would certainly be up for the task of taking big felines and probably quite well if the guy pulling the trigger does his part.

JohnTheGreek

I appreciate all of the posts above. I got to thinking about this topic while preparing for my upcoming safari. I have two decent lions and would like to get a GOOD one. On my last safarai I had told the PH that I wouldn't shoot a lion unless he was excellent. Ended up looking over a few decent ones, nothing great, and ended up not shooting one. On that safari I found that the PH, Alick Roberts, also shoots a 450 Dakota; nice custom rifle on a Dakota action. He uses 500 grain X bullets and 500 grain TBS, and 500 grain Swift or TBB for cats. This is the origin of my post. Alick asked me to make up some ammo for him to his specs and bring it on this safari. He indicated that he thinks the X bullet is too "hard" for lion and prefers the soft point. When asked if he'd ever had a problem with X's and lions he said no, but still believed it was probably too hard. I personally believe the X would be just fine for lion. The muzzle velocity in my rifle (22" barrel) is 2420 fps. I think the X would probably open up to a diameter of about a 416 conventional softpoint, but penetrate better. I like exit wounds. I also like the idea of a bullet reliably breaking the "off" shoulder. Granted, the Swift A-frame which I will also bring would probably have more hydrostatic shock effect but I'll take that trade. If Alick doesn't mind, I'll use the X. If he does mind, I'll gladly use the Swift. He's been doing this since I was a puppy.

I'm a little surprised at the opinions were fairly consistent as to the best rifle--a 375 or a 416. I woulda thunk that there would be a few 458 fans. If Finn Aagard was still around he'd have stuck up for the Winchester.

As far as the "lion load" goes, I think it is dangerous. I also have to wonder how many people got hurt while using it. Alphin hunted Africa a lot and would have to know better. I have to think it was just a marketing ploy.

At any rate, I'll be off in a few days. Rolling in the dirt like a 10 year old, sucking lucious Cubans, and having a great time. I am taking a little digital video camera (the little sucker weighs about 1 pound and takes near broadcast-quality video). Hopefully it won't be used to document me gut-shooting some damn lion.

Gentlemen,

The REAL lion hunting was on the days when hunters chased lions on horse back. When the lion got tired of being chased, and decided to fight, the hunter jumps off his horse and shoots the lion.

In those days, most people were using 303s or 7x57.

I have read stories of hunters meeting their end while trying to empty their magazine at a charging lion. Either missing completely or wounding the lion.

Apparently most hunters who got caught this way died. If not killed outright, they normally died of blood poisoning.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

John,
In my humble opinnion the most perfect Lion bullet would be the NorthFork, I assure you thoes bullets are devastating and do not fail....The faster you drive them the better...they get big in a hurry and penitrate like the dickens..and I like the ragged edges as opposed to that smooth ball you get with the Swift.( I have a problem with that smooth round expanded bullet )

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

JohnDL,

I hope that itty bitty video camera doesn't get a picture of a big lion from the inside out! Good Luck and report back in detail.
Rich Elliott

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Ethiopian Rift Valley Safaris

Re the right load for a lion.....I shot a big male in the valley last year. Used a 375 H&H Mag, Kynoch 300 gr softs. One shot, in the chest , he ran 20 feet and collapsed.The locals had scoffed at Kynoch, but it did the job!!

Since I have not taken an African lion what I'm about to post can be taken as opinion only! An opinion, however, that has some backing in the use of these rounds on some "tuff" soft skined game game. Personally I think a "SCOPPED" rifle in the 375 H&H, 416, Rem Mag, or Taylor, with Nosler Partitions will work fine on Lion over bait. A good double rifle can always be taken along for the follow-up, if that becomes necessary, and in that case, I would go no smaller than a 450/400 3" NE with a Woodliegh soft points! A 375 H&H, with Nos Part, would be my first choice over bait, simply because I shoot that rifle a lot, and it is like an extention of my body! That's a personal choice, however!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

John if you want your Lion video edited, or if needed digitaly corrected, give me a yell. I dont want money, I'd just like some good Lion hunting footage to show my friends. Cost would be for materials only.

I can correct color, light, audio, and camera shake in digital post. If you need it let me know, best of all is aquisition that has no problems but anything can happen in the field. I hope you kill a real goodie.

Guy's is there ANY place for solids in Lion hunting ? Also would a .338 Win be a common sense chambering for the cat, or is it a bit light....thanx and good shooting.......10

Thanks 10,

Hopefully I will come back with some footage...no guarantees.

As for solids in lion hunting, I personally don't believe there's much of a place. I guess you could justify using a soft up top and solids below, but I'd just stick with softs. Boddington wrote an article about how he jumped a lion when he had Trophy Bonded Solids in his 416 Rigby. It turned out ok but he certainly didn't recommend them as first choice.

Again, this is only my opinion, but I think it would be absolute suicide to attempt to take an African Lion with solids, if one had a choice, no matter the caliber! Even soft points would have to be a very well designed controled expansion softs, like a Nosler Patrition,X-bullet,Woodliegh, or A-frame. Still, they would have to be placed properly to get the job done, without mishap!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

A few years ago a friend from Texas and I were hunting in Tanzania and lion was on the list. I got mine with a .375 H&H-300 gr trophy bonded on a shot placement close to the spine, going away, from an elevated position-ant hill. He dropped like a rock and the bullet was found perfectly mushroomed under the skin at the far shoulder. Well after your first cats taken with one shot kills, you could become relaxed or even complacent. Later, in the hunt and during traveling, talked with other more veteran hunters and other ph's and there are many yarns about hard to kill lions, etc.

Prior to traveling to Africa, my Texas buddy invited me down to practice shoot on his range and for bullet evaluatiuon. He had built a bullet trap 2 feet square and 6 feet long filled with CaCo2(sheet rock) and wet paper to simulated bullet performance on buffalo. Briefly, I had bought into the triad system of DG bullets from A-Square (mono-solids, dead tough soft points, and lion load softs, in both .375 and .416. The reason was consistency when moving between solids and softs. We were both surprised when the lion loads had less than 30% of the penetration of the my trophy bonded or my friends Swift A-frame softs. In addition the dead tough soft points did not stay together when simulating bone hits. Needless, to say I abandoned this system faster than a scalded cat. Now the whole idea probably was based on impact energy and not penetation, but this guy did not want to do field trials on live lion. Some of the comments about lion loads on these posts jogged my memory and made me wonder, what if?

Any caliber above .375' with expanding bullet of around 400gr,at medium velocity will work fine. In bolt action rifle, any .416;(Rigby,Remington, or wildcat)will do,but I am a double rifle man,and my inherited, Jeffery .450/.400 double will nicely do.

Would it supprise anyone, if I said, use the 416 with 400 gr swifts.....I have used the 375 H&H and have loaned my .375 to several clients and it has worked every time using 300 gr Nosler Part. However, if I had to face a charge I'd rather have my 416.
George

George, Thanks for your post. Now I have a question for you. Tomorrow I'm off to Tanzania for lion. I'll be using a 450 Dakota and have loads with 500 grain Swifts at about 2420fps and loads with 500 grain Barnes at the same speed. My PH, Alick Roberts, has said that he thinks the X's are "too hard" for lion and prefers the Swifts. I think the X's would do just fine. What would you advise? Thanks

JohnDL
The swifts are perfect for lion. The x bullet may be a little to tough for Lion but work great for buffalo. The X bullet will often act like a solid on soft animals, even when it opens it has very little frontal area. Since lion do not have the body mass I would opt for the swift bullet. I have used and seen the swift on several lions and it worked perfect every time. I als, use the swift in the .416 for buffalo and find it just under the skin for the off side, taking the broadside shot. It will also, break hip and spine bones with a rear "going away" shot. I spined a hippo one time with a
swift as well.
George

Thanks George. I'm off to the airport and that horrible long flight. John

10 Point,
To address your question on the use of solids on Lions...Solids have no place in Lion hunting that I can think of and neither do trick bullets like the A Square Lion Load, Bal. tips etc....

Use Northfork, Swift Nosler and Woodleighs in the 375 or 416, 404 and up....

As to the 338, I consider it a satisfactory Lion gun with the 300 gr. Nosler, as well as the 9.3x62 with 300 gr. Swifts or 320 Woodleighs...The 416, 404 is my choice.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I was looking for info on the ideal lion round, and thought I'd bring this one back up.

Seems like it should be standard research, if you are a PH>

s

Trophy Bonded Bear Claws

For my June 2004 trip to Zim I will be using my 9.3x74R Chapuis with a scope as my Lion rifle unless conditions allow me to use my 450 No2 double. The PH says it depends on a variety of conditions as to how we will actually hunt Old Leo. I would love to do a "walk up" with the 450 No2, but have no problem using the scoped rifle if that is what the PH prefers. As for bullets in the 9.3 it will be the 286 Woodleigh or Nosler Partition. In the 450 No2 I will use the 480 Woodleigh or the 500 Swift A-Frame. Ya'll have pretty much talked me into leaving the 350gr and the 500gr. Hornadys at home. Still the No2 shoots the 350 Hornady at 2300fps spot on with the sights to 100yds[confirmed on paper and game] and at 200 yds with the 200yd leaf up[confirmed on my 200yd "rock", need to test it on paper].

ROFL!!

Saeed:
What's wrong with the 400 grain TBBC, in 458, at 2380?
Likewise what's wrong with a Speer Flat SP over AA 2230 at 2590?
Lacks penetration?

Seems like no one uses these bullet-caliber combinations, and I'm really wondering why?

I've kind of got this itch to get a 458, and with the 400 grain TBBC, and the 350 grain bullets at such high velocity, it makes me think you could have an all in one 458, without the recoil of the Lott.

It would seem the 350 would be just fine for plains game, or even the 400, and the 400, at 2380 would give you adequate stopping power for cats, and enough penetration for buffalo, elephant, and anything else that might decide to
flatten you, or eat you.

I am also a bit shocked no one said 458-500 A2 or something.

Guess you have to be charged a couple times before the rifles start feeling like 22's.

Ray: What's wrong with a solid for lion hunting?
I suspect a 700 Nitro Express solid, up to a 2 bore would certainly work, unless, regardless of caliber, the bullet needs to be going 2250-2300 for good hydrodynamic shock...
S

[ 04-21-2003, 23:58: Message edited by: Socrates ]