Looks like I'll be using my .416 Taylor Lion Loads for target practice, not on Brown Bears...maybe Black Bears

John

A PH I have hunted with said he uses the .500 A2 as he wants to drop the lion no matter how imperfectly the shot placement may be in a charge in the high grass.

As he has reported experienced that experience several times I guess that says something on the calibre choice at 10 or less yards

I use a 375 H&H with Noslers or Swifts on unsuspecting lions from blinds, etc.

BUT, when we need to head off into the goosu (anybody know the correct spelling or what it means?) to track Shumba, the 375 stays in the soft case and a slingless 416 Rem w/400 Gr. Swifts is the choice for me.

NitroX,

I think your PH is wrong.

It really does not matter what you hit them with, if it is NOT in the right place, it ain't gone to work.

Saeed.
Never been to Africa, but have thought it over a million times. When I go ( soon ) it will be with my battle hardened .375 and X bullets. The rifle almost shoots itself and the load will kill anything I point it at.
That ugly Dakota 375-404 looks like it is more loved than any other. Take it and your X bullets and you will not miss. Bullet placement will kill the lion. A little bigger bullet helps little.
The first shot is the one that matters.
My pulse is increasing just thinking about it!
What a thrilling experience!

Take a pair of running shoes. If you screw up you just have to out run your PH!

Best of Luck Saeed.
Jamie

Saeed

I think the purpose of his using the .500 A2 was to increase the margin for error when facing a lion charge. The larger calibre not being a substitute for good shooting and aim but added insurance.

Sorry about that Saeed.

Thought it was you that was going.
That's to bad because it occured to me that if you ever do go after lion again, you should take your friend Walter with you!
No running shoes required.
Wondered why you were asking??

Good luck JohnDL.
Bring your shoes and maybe a flak Jacket!

For lion:
9,3x64 loaded with 258gr RWS HMK on 2800 FPS.
It deforms very quickly with very much fragments and the compact rest of the bullet will shoot out.
But it is not to use on buff...

I reckon you need a combination of heavy calibre and good shot placement for a charging Lion.
DJ.

x-man,

I have shot 2 lions with the Bear CLwa bullet this man complains about.

I would be very happy to use them for everything except elephant - in fact, I have done just that.

No bullet is going to change the uotcome for a bad bullet placement.

It occurs to me that someone ought to send this thread to the lawyers defending Federal Cartridge Company in that Trophy Bonded/lion mauling case.

It clearly proves that there is no "clear concensus" on what constitutes the perfect lion bullet, and that Trophy Bonded is not considered inferior by many of those who hunt lion.

My two cents are probably kind of after the fact, but I took a brute of a male lion this past September in TZ with my .300 Win Mag with 200 grain Noslers (Federal High Energy load). Cat ran 60 yards and died. I was in a hide at 130 yards. As close as we could get considering cover, the bait (on the ground) and the wind. All is well that ends well. I did have my .375 in hand when we went into the bush to find him.

Good Luck and Good Hunting.

Scott.

Soc,
I'll pass and let you use a 700 NE with solids on Lions, not me..Lions are tough and they tend to work on my nerves more than any animal I know.

John,
As to your question to me on the 458 as a Lion gun...I have seen a number of Lions shot with it and it always knocked the dickens out of them with 500 gr. softs..Kills them quick...there is a lot of difference in a broadside shot on a lion and a coming to you or going away shot however and a 375, 416 or 458 is the best medicine...Your choice of a 450 is plenty fine but I would use a 500 gr. Swift, Nosler,or Woodleigh for Lion and let someone else play with the lighter bullets.....

HI,

MR.SAEED, I saw where you said you have used a 416 Rigby Improved, I am not farmilar with this improvement or round.If you could explain more about this I would appreciate it. I understand it would get more fps with the shoulders at a steeper angle how much more fps ?.And how much more powder would it increase over the standard 416 Rigby?. Thanks for your time, Kev

Ray:
Any idea why the 500 grain bullets appear to "hit harder" then the lighter bullets, even though the lighter bullets are going considerably faster?

I'm not arguing with you, just a bit baffled by
this whole 500 grains hitting hard at low velocity.

My reference is handgun bullets, and, likewise, the majority perfer heavier weight slugs, but we do have high velocity, moderate weight guys, that suggest the velocity increases do have noticeable effects on bear...
s

Socs,
It is section density=penitration..with a 500 gr. bullet you always have more base pushing on the mushroom...as the mushroom get larger the more base you need to keep the bullet going forward, that is the best I can do in laymans terms, and I'm not a technical person...NOw inasmuch as the monolithic is longer per equal weight, one can drop down to the next lighter offering of bullet thus a 450 GS Custom or Barnes X should equal a 500 gr. soft all things being equal...

Now the manufacturers of monolithics will argue this point and they may be right, but that has not been my experience, and my experience is what I go by...I feel too many bullet makers believe what their client say and in many cases the clients are basing their experience on one or two kills, not a good policy IMO.

I have found the 300 gr. Woodleigh in my .338 will out penitrate the 300 gr. bullets in a 375 about 80% of the time and they always out penitrate the 270 gr. 375 bullets...the 300 gr. Woodleigh will equal and sometimes out penitrate the 230 gr. .338 cal. Failsafe and Barnes X.....

I could write volumes on this subject, but a lot of it would be opinnion based on years of shooting and very unscientific, but then I have noticed that a scientific approach to this subject is not very accruate either, that is why the subject is so subjective...

The one thing I am sure of is when a bullet strikes an animal, everything we know, believe or have proved again and again, goes to hell in a handbasket..

Ray:
You could look at your data another way. Bullet weight=penetration

In other words, the extra weight increases the time the bullet is traveling through the animal
at high speed. Makes sense.

Wound channel diameter is created by both the bullet, and the speed that the bullet is going.

How long the bullet retains it's velocity, after entering the animal is going to have a HUGE affect
on the temporary wound channel diameter.

We've seen this in ballistic gelatin, using 223 bullets. The initial wound channel is very large, but, the velocity diminishes so quickly that the channel becomes very small, and straight.

Sort of like a bulb plant, in reverse. Or better yet, a light bulb, that's very long.

In the case at hand, the lighter bullets could be slowed by the wall of muscle and bone, on a frontal shot with a lion, and not have enough bullet weight to push the bullet through and do sufficent damage to drop the animal.

I do find your comments about a 700 nitro express perplexing.
Since the bullet diameter is nearly that of an expanded 500 grain bullet, and, the bullet is WAY heavier, it would retain it's velocity, and cut a very large hole, solid or not.

Course the 175k to buy the rifle, and, even if I could, I'm not sure I could hit anything with it anyway,...

s

[ 04-25-2003, 22:13: Message edited by: Socrates ]

Socs,
I think that is what I said, I think!!