I leave for Tanz in 9 days to whack three buffalo and a hippo (and other stuff too). In the past, I used 400 gr Swift A Frames with solids underneath, but the way those Swifts performed (two shots, two buffalo that didn't even take one step) I am thinking of skipping the solids, esp because I feel extremely comfortable out to 200 yards, maybe even 300, with my .416, meaning I might have it in my hands for plains game more often that I would have thought (and the solids won't do for that).

So what do you guys think? Anyone not bring solids and wish they had?

Azw: Funny you should ask....When I prepared for my buffalo jaunt, I moved searched high and wide to secure a good supply of the old-style Hornady solids, becasue conventional wisdom said "your first shot should be a soft, followed by solids." When I got there, my PH, John Sharp said "use all softs, the Swifts are all the bullet you'll ever need." So when I finally shot my buffalo, I couldn't resist and put a solid into him between the shoulders. Just like John said, I really didn't need it. You'll be fine with the Swifts. Beat Army. jorge

I like the Swift bullets. They did a great job on my buff. However.... I would definately take some solids. Solids are good insurance in case of a charge and on a follow up and if elephants are intent on killing you. Even if you have 2 Swifts up first, I would have solids in the bottom of the mag, and extras on my belt.
I would never want to be in a DG area in Africa without some solids.
Several times while carrying my 9,3 for plains game we bumbed into elephants. The PH would quietly say "Two Solids Please". I would silently reload with two solids, we would, check out the elephants, sneak away, and continue for plains game.
I think I would carry a few solids for any rifle I was hunting with in buff or elephant areas.

Hey Jorge:

I was in JAX this week and saw two young naval officers in the airport, one each coming and going. Both times I looked at them and said - "Thanks for serving - but Beat Navy!"

One guy just turned and smiled.

Good to see your old pic back.

Swifts are for broadside shots and not follow up shots. They stop on the off side skin almost all the time.. 99% of buff shot should get a follow up shot or two...Also use a solid on frontal shots..Most buffalo are wounded on frontal shots by bullets skidding to the side and going between the shoulder and the outer rib cage...One of the reason a 40 caliber and larger is better for buff than sub calibers below .400....

I am perfectly happy shooting buff with solids, but these days I use the Northfork Cup points almost exclusively..

I've used a .416 and Swift A-frames on three different buffalo safaris.

Here is what each PH recommended.

All softs.

One soft, rest solids.

Two softs, rest solids.

So you can see there is no concensus.

Personally, I would never go into elephant country without at least 5 solids on my belt and that includes when I am carrying my .375 H&H for plains game.

Regards,

Terry

T.Carr
Only 5 solids, what happens if there are 6 elephants.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
T.Carr
Only 5 solids, what happens if there are 6 elephants.

Four for the elephants and one for me.

Regards,

Terry

Get the wind and line the last two up side by side.
Bull1

John

Take it for what it is worth but Adam recommends premium softs for buffalo with no solids. That advise seems more and more prevalent from modern PH's.

Regards,

Mark

I have found that most PH's prefer solids because they always have and really don't know what the hell they are talking about.

Use the Swifts.

The Swift AF in 300 gr. in .375 RUM works well on Hippo, Buff, Eland and any thing smaller. I recovered 5 bullets and they all mushroomed uniformly, did not break up, and ended up on the other side of the animals I shot broadside. I did have solids that came in handy for Duiker and would have been used on Elephant if I ran into the Right one without my .458. Elephants are just a lot more animal!!!

Robert Crew, and yes Adam will let you use other than softs if you ask.

Regardless of your preference of softs or solids for buff (make mine solids), that hippo needs solids if shot on land. For broadside shots on buff, of course softs are better. But on frontal shots, a soft will start expanding before it enters the rib cage, and it may lose radial stability, careening off along the ribs rather than entering the chest. Or you may get a disadvantageous quartering away shot from which you could reach vitals with a solid but not with a soft.

The Swift's will not let you down, but I would definately have some solids present...I like the idea of 2Swifts and 2 solids...


Mike

Jorge, I think you'll bw fine w/quality softs and a back up every day of the week, or if in doubt, 2 swifts over 2 solids as retreever said, if you're a bolt action guy.

Now, about that last comment.....we'll have to agree to disagree there!

Bob

I would have some solids along. Two softs on top and the rest solids.

You never know how much buff you might have to penetrate to get to the vitals.

I would not like to stand a buffalo charge with softs...but hey were all free, green and over 21 use what you feel good with and live with the results...How is that for politically correct!

Our PH said Swifts all the way. I carried some solids but they never got further than the magazine. The swifts worked nicely on all 4 of our buffalo. I do not have lots of experience with frontal shots but I would be a bit surprised if those 400 gr bullets will be deflected much by those ribs. I put one directly on the point of the shoulder. It smashed the shoulder and then went through the on side ribs and then the off side ribs. It was just under the hide on the off hide near the last rib. What a wound channel. Just before you leave for the hunt read my signature enough so that it will come to mind at show time.

Thanks for the advice guys. This is really helpful.

AZ
Don't keep us in suspense. Are you going to take some solids, and if so how many?

Tony,

You just want to know if you won the debate.

I think I will take 10 solids.

The more i shoot my .416, the more impressed I am with it.

If you shoot straight on the buffalo you will be more impressed with it yet!

John,

I read over this post again and I must agree with 500 that if you try for hipppo on land which I have not had the opportunity to do yet you need those solids. Hippo skin is very tough and incredibly thick. If you take one in the water you might want to consider the solids as it will be a brain shot and a solid will smash up the skull less than a soft and the skull mounted open mouth with teeth is an awesome trophy.

Mark

All Swift shooters should try the North Forks. The Swifts are great, the North Forks are better and more accurate in my rifles, it is that simple. With that solid shank and bonded core front end, you have the best of both worlds, somewhere down the line add a solid or two and the guessing is behind you. I used a 370 grain North Fork for my Buffalo with my .416 Rem at a speed of 2450 thereabouts. It went in at the last rib on a quartering away shot and traversed through everything, and lodged at the first rib where it adjoins the neck bone. I sent it to Mike Brady and it weighed out at 99.1% and had a perfect mushroom. I followed it up with a 370 grain North Fork flat head solid that blew through the shoulders. Good shooting.

I agree with phurley on Northforks, the softs are as good as it gets...

Many PHs recommend softs for buffalo, as they are there to back up any thing that happens and softs properly placed do kill well...These PHs usually have solids for back up or should...A soft well placed broadside will normally kill a bit faster than a solid, but even this has changed faces with the advent of flat nose solids and especially Northfork cup points...

Probably makes little difference one way or the other if you stick the first soft or solid in the right spot...

Mark:

I don't always agree with 500 grains on his Rem stuff, but he brings up a point that I didn't even consider. I have never shot a hippo, but I am now bringing 10 solids and 40 softs.

So again, thanks for the help.

A soft on body shots on Hippo is as worthless as tits on a boar hog, IMO...500 is right as usual...plus the Hippo can suck up bullets on body shots like a sponge sucks up water, but not to worry at some point he will open his mouth to make a crowd out of you, and you can simply shoot him in the roof of the mouth and brain him...that's pretty close btw!

Just take softs and let your partner back you up.

On second thought, he has been acting kind of flakey lately ...

quote:

I think I will take 10 solids.

Obviously has experience past deer hunting or is willing to listen>

My PH said "40 softs and 20 solids". So, I'm taking 20 TBBC's, 20 Barnes TSX, and 20 Barnes Banded Solids. Kind of a "3 Bears" approach.
Dave

I would absolutely take at least ten solids for your 416, and I would never conduct a hunt for buffalo that didn't include some solids.

I'm taking sixty rounds for 416 Rem. Mag. ammo to Tanzania this year, with three buffalo on the menu, plus hippo, etc. I'm taking a box of 370 gr. North Fork solids, plus a box of 370 gr. NF softs, and 370 gr. NF Cup-Point solids. MV is 2460 fps. and I have the rifle zeroed 1" high at 100 yds., and 1/2" high at 50 yds. I'm lucky, because my rifle shoots all three bullets to the same POI.

Good luck and much enjoyment on your safari this year........ !

AD

allen,

As I indicated above, I agree, and yours sound like excellent loads.

I have been working up loads lately in both of my .416s, a Rigby and a Remington Magnum, and just ordered a box of the 370 grain softs and another of the FPS bullets from Mike Brady (a very nice guy, BTW) to try out.

Subject to all of the usual disclaimers, etc., would you mind sharing your loading data with me in a PM?

Thanks.

Ray:
You've said the Walterhogs kill like a 458 Lott.
What about a Bridger solid, or Gerard's, oh forget that, he's not going in two years, or a flat point solid, PERIOD? Like 50 of em?

G

I had a chance to see the true difference between soft and solid performance this year on buffalo. I shot a buffalo three times as it passed by me in a dry riverbed with solids and you could see the dust fly on the chest and then the bullet impact on the riverbank behind. The buffalo never missed a step until I top loaded a soft point ,TTB, and when hit the buffalo was visibly shaken. Each of the previous three would have killed him but the soft point actully knocked him down. You could cover all four shots with a coffee can lid. Until then I had killed my previous three buffalo with solids. Now the first shot will be a soft point.

A classic AR thread, softs or solids and just how many in the magazine, with a lot of hard opinions. Also, enough variables to make it impossible to verify the appropriateness of whatever is actually used because 100 times out of 101, IF THE SHOT IS WELL PLACED, the buff will die without tossing the hunter into a tree or worse. I think solids should also be on your person in case you run into the world number one (insert any really small antelope here)trophy and don't want have to just pick up the pieces. Besides, some of us seem to be talking about "softs" that have been designed to perform like "solids".

quote:

I think solids should also be on your person in case you run into the world number one (insert any really small antelope here)trophy and don't want have to just pick up the pieces.

Wink,

Good point about solids on the little stuff. Solids are also useful for mercy shots, don't tear up the cape as much as a soft.

Regards,

Terry

for anybody who is interested here is the (Factory loaded 460Wby) 450 grain barnesX bullet that I used on my Buff. It now weighs 370 grains. The shot was about 60 yards away. It was recovered underneath the skin after going through the opposite shoulder.

I'm glad you posted the pic of the Barnes. My question is, in some cases with the premium bullets that are manufactured these days, would a slightly lighter bullet be just as good of a choice. Let's say a 458 Lott with a 450 grain bullet to take advantage of the full powder capacity instead of a 500 grain. Or using a 350 grain 416 diam for the Remingtons and Rigbys. I would say this applies more to the use of lead free type bullets. But also with the premium bullets like the Swift's. In these cases would 50 grains of bullet make a huge difference in penetration and tissue damage is concerned. I'm thinking of converting my 375 to a 458 Lott or purchasing one and would like to know your opinions.

The .450 Barnes X or TSX is lethal in the .458 Lott. I've killed three buff with this combo...all with one shot each. With velocities in the 2350-2400 range, I have total confidence in this combo.

If I had enough eletronic intelligence to understand T. Carr's photo posting instruction, I would show you two 450 X bullets recovered from TZN buffs in 2003. The first weighed 450 grains and the second weighed 449 at recovery.

I've got 35 450 grain TSX's loaded as we speak and packed for my next trip to TZN on 18 September.

Bull1