The legend that 416 Rem. ammo is too high pressure, bullets creep out of the cases, difficult to eject, has been around for quite a while. One African writer has stated these problems emphaatically. I used some at least ten year old Rem. 416 solids as recently as this year on elephant with no problems.
The August American Rifleman has an article, "Hot & Cold", wherin both early 90's and 2008 manufactured Rem. brand 416 Rem. with 400gr. Swift A-Frame bullets were compared. After heating to 110 degrees their velocity was within 50fps and point of impact was identical.
There may be an advantage to 416 Rigby being a larger case/lower pressure but I believe it is academic in the field. My recent very capable Zim professional hunter uses a 416 Rem. rifle.
The article appeared well researched and detailed. If you are considering this caliber, it would be informative.

Thanks!

Andy Hunter, Peter Barnard, etc., etc., use 416 Rem Mag's. Never heard them complaining. I used one for most of my elephants. Never a problem.

The masses have grown tired of the 416 Rem Mag for some strange reason. The rag writers are probably just hustling something else. CZ, I think, just brought theirs out in 416 Rem Mag. I did mine a few years ago and holds one up and 5 down. That's what I call firepower.

Anyone want to give me their outdated and outmoded 416 Rem Mag's, feel free!

I've had my 416 Rem for 5 years and 4 trips to Africa. Two of these safari's were in hot temps, at least 95f with no problems at all.

One can only wonder what the difference is between 95f in Africa and 95 in south Georgia as far as the effect on ammo. I also wonder if some of the so called problems are the result of reloads or some other form of operator error.

Adrian

I live in AZ and shoot in very hot temperatures. This morning I was out with my .416 practicing for a hunt in the Selous next week. It is 110 right now at 5 pm (I still have to get in my 4 mile run!); I am sure it was over 100 when I was shooting.

I have not noticed any issue with high pressure at high temps with the .416. But I have done some testing with ball powders, and they are quite sensitive to temperature changes. Velocity differences of over 150 fps are not unusual.

I've hunted Africa in 120f with my .416Rem and never had an issue.

The story comes from one article by a single author who "observed" the problem many years ago. Further investigation indicated the ammo used was old and had been stored under far from ideal conditions. Unfortunately a single article can become "gospel" and may be repeated and cited by others without doing appropriate research into exactly what the facts were originally.

Let's put this fallacy about the .416Rem to rest once and for all.

All I can say is that a box of Remingtons with Swifts were the highest pressure factory cartridges that I have ever tested, nearly 67KSI and that was at 68*F. And it was more than just pressure that was talking to me. The primer, case, and velocity was also saying watch out. At least that one box was a tad overboard. I never posted a load that went over 60K. I can't say how long they had sat on the dealer's shelf before I bought them but they were purchased in the late 90s.

416 Rigby for me after all "why take a chance" and end up being read about on this forum.I am yet to hear anything about pressure problems in Africa about the 416 Rigby and for people like me who do Dangerous Game Hunting without a PH I wouldnt trade in my 416 Rigby and my 500 Jeffery.Who needs pressure problems and difficult extractions or worse a jam in the Hot Thick stuff?..416 Rigby and 500 Jeffery when you have no back up.The fact remains that the 416 Rem Mag has potential for pressure problems .WHY TAKE A CHANCE?

Load your own ammo and there is NO risk of a faulty, overloaded cartridge - unless you screw the pooch.

JPK

I believe Rem recalled a batch of 416 years ago with the Swifts that were over pressure. I got a good deal on a couple hundred of the pulled bullets! What I have yet to figure out is, How is 100* in Texas different than 100* in Africa!!???!! When I went to TZ, using nothing but handloads in four calibers, we had Zero problems! How can this be? I need to look at Mike Dettore's explanation on his posts to understand, LOL.

quote:

Originally posted by NFMike:
All I can say is that a box of Remingtons with Swifts were the highest pressure factory cartridges that I have ever tested, nearly 67KSI and that was at 68*F. And it was more than just pressure that was talking to me. The primer, case, and velocity was also saying watch out. At least that one box was a tad overboard. I never posted a load that went over 60K. I can't say how long they had sat on the dealer's shelf before I bought them but they were purchased in the late 90s.

I had pierced primers with some of that Remington stuff once. Yes, Swift bullets.
Remington corrected the recipe.

That one batch of ammo must have started the story.

Yes, I always handload if possible.
And no bestiality allowed.

I reload my 416 Rem Mag using Rel 15, 350 grain Swift A Frames, Fed 215 primers, with Rem Brass. My favorite load Chronys at 2640 fps. I have never had any pressure issues with temps up to 110 degrees.

The first three shots slightly enlarge the hole in the target. After that the shooter (me) starts having "issues"

Never had a problem with mine in major Zim heat. If someone is really worried about it, he/she should just reload a slightly lower pressure/velocity. Frankly, with the price of ammo, people should be doing this anyway.

quote:

Unfortunately a single article can become "gospel" and may be repeated and cited by others without doing appropriate research into exactly what the facts were originally.

Very true. Runs in a similar vane to the .458 Win Mag "problems", push feed versus CFR, the list is long.
In the early days there were few writers and many readers restricted to a few publications. Any views or opinions that were published became law from one month to the next.
What people often fail to realize is that many of these "writers" are exactly that, writers. Not journalists with a responsibility to the truth, but more often than not people just recounting their experiences to earn an extra buck from an international publication.

Lets not take anything away from these guys, they are great people more often than not and have mostly lived a blessed life in the bush, but when it comes to actually testing theories there is more often than not a lot of liberty taken in the recounting of events and backing up of stories.

I have found, more often than not, that it is the once a year die hard from the US, who spends 52 weekends a year testing his rifle and ammo, that has the facts straight, not the hero worshiped gun writers. So read as much as you can, but weigh each thing you read with several grains of salt and go out and test your own equipment as often as possible. That way you know what you are dealing with and have the added benefit of burning plenty of powder.
Good hunting
Ian

Seen two batched of 'funny' .416rem. one was Nimrod- a small time zim ammo loader who produced reasonable stuff. With south African S341 powder got the occsional unexplained pressure spike.

The other was a consignment of several thousand rounds of Federal imported by Zim's biggest agency- L.G. Harrisions. These however were just very variable by the time they were tested. Velocity ranged between 2000fps and 2400fps...

One of the biggest complaint and souce of 'bad press' on the .416 rem are the m700's in .416. I have three break extractors on the various proficiency exams - and they are not common rifles in Zim! I have never seen or met anybody who has had a broken extractor on a 700 in .375!!! (and they are far more common than 700's in .416.

As to the comments on temperatures- where many tests come short is they start with a cold rifle and ammo at ambient air temp. 100 deg in texas is exactly the same as zim- just stand the rifle in the sun for a couple of hours like it is in the gun rack, liberally dust the action with fine sand, make sure the ammo has also been left cooking in the sun....In short the problem isn't 100F. It is at 160F for both rifle and ammo and a dirty, dusty chamber.

Many of the newer powders are far more temperature stable than S341!!! and the difference between -60 and + 200 is only a couple of %. But the old style powders are popular, often easier to load with and one heck of alot cheaper so they are still widely used.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Seen two batched of 'funny' .416rem. one was Nimrod- a small time zim ammo loader who produced reasonable stuff. With south African S341 powder got the occsional unexplained pressure spike.

The other was a consignment of several thousand rounds of Federal imported by Zim's biggest agency- L.G. Harrisions. These however were just very variable by the time they were tested. Velocity ranged between 2000fps and 2400fps...

One of the biggest complaint and souce of 'bad press' on the .416 rem are the m700's in .416. I have three break extractors on the various proficiency exams - and they are not common rifles in Zim! I have never seen or met anybody who has had a broken extractor on a 700 in .375!!! (and they are far more common than 700's in .416.

As to the comments on temperatures- where many tests come short is they start with a cold rifle and ammo at ambient air temp. 100 deg in texas is exactly the same as zim- just stand the rifle in the sun for a couple of hours like it is in the gun rack, liberally dust the action with fine sand, make sure the ammo has also been left cooking in the sun....In short the problem isn't 100F. It is at 160F for both rifle and ammo and a dirty, dusty chamber.

Many of the newer powders are far more temperature stable than S341!!! and the difference between -60 and + 200 is only a couple of %. But the old style powders are popular, often easier to load with and one heck of alot cheaper so they are still widely used.

Well, my .416 is a Mod 70 with CRF. I have lots of Mod 700s - and never had a broken extractor. I did have one rip the rim off a stuck piece of brass. But, my Mod 70 once failed to extract a hot load - the extractor sprung away without extracting.

Extraction issues seem to get a lot of attention on the internet, but I think a bigger problem is double feeding. I have had much more of a problem with rounds not staying under the feed rails when the bolt is drawn back.

Can anyone describe exactly the Rem ammo that was said to be questionable, that is, the markings on the box or any way to ID the cartridges?

I recently bought a Whitworth .416 custom Mauser built by a well-known U.S. gun maker. A full box of ammo came with it. I haven't shot it yet and have no idea the age of the ammo.

Two other questions. One, should I be contacting Rem directly about the ammo before using any? And two, if I offered the gun for shooting to any of those here who have voiced doubts on the subject, would you be willing to pull the trigger on mine? Or not?

quote:

make sure the ammo has also been left cooking in the sun

Might I suggest the dashboard of the Cruiser, wedged between the windshield and the metal of the dash.

I've done three 1-gun .416Rem trips (handloaded ammo at or slightly under max specs) w/o any issues, one of which Oct in the Caprivi when temp's were ~110.

quote:

I have had much more of a problem with rounds not staying under the feed rails when the bolt is drawn back.

A stronger magazine spring solved that problem for me in my M70 CRF

Is it easy to reach the 2400 fps with 416 rem handloads?

quote:

Originally posted by JBoutfishn:

quote:

I have had much more of a problem with rounds not staying under the feed rails when the bolt is drawn back.

A stronger magazine spring solved that problem for me in my M70 CRF

I have the same problem with mine. Where did you get your mag spring? Thanks.

The 416 is a fine cartridge, but it is definitely at the upper end of the pressure scale. I like the rigby by virtue of longer brass life, and more importantly, I can use RL22 which I buy in 8lb containers. I wouldn't hesitate to go to Africa with a 416 rem though. Ganyana hit the point right on when he said the heat is the same 100 degrees, but when that rifle has been on the shoulder of your gun bearer for three or four hours, grabbing the barrel will give you a reminder of how hot things can get. Although modern powders are less heat sensitive, it is usually a good idea to back them down about a couple of percent from max to keep from locking up a bolt.


I have heard the 700/extractor issue from a few sources, and I believe that a combination of the amount of bolt thrust combined with dirt could cause the spring steel to break. They are cheap and easy to replace, you can buy 5 in the states and take them with you, but it would be disheartening to have one break in the middle of a tense moment.

John

The Bofors powders (most commonly seen as Reloader in the USA) are particularly temperature stable. You can load the 410 Woodleigh to 2360fps in the .416 rem and stay within CIP maximum alowed pressures with the rounds heated to 100ºC. You can load the 410 woodleighs to 2400fps but then you have to keep temperature down to below 70º C

quote:

Originally posted by reddy375:
Is it easy to reach the 2400 fps with 416 rem handloads?

I had a Rem 700 not long after they arrived in Australia.

Factory ammo in mine averaged 2410 f/s across and Ohler 35.

2400 is very easy to get with reloads and 2500 was also fine with both Reloader 15 and the Australian powder that is now sold as Varget. Although the powder was a little different back then, about 1990-91.

I might also add that the rifle range I use is a real hot in the Australian summer

I suspect that some of the 416 Remington problem was caused by the Rem 700 rifle. Some Rem 700s are very gouged (spelling?) on the extraction cam and sometimes in addition the bolt handle is not attached where it should be and the result is very poor primary extraction, that is, the distance the bolt moves back while lifting the handle is too small and the case is not full broken free. This results in having the bolt fully open but than having to knock the bolt back.

Some Rem 700s have also had chamber problems in 375 and that increases the problem and if they have had in 375 then there must be a chance it is/was in 416s.

But getting 400 grainers to 2400 /s is real easy.

Another possible problem could have been caused by the Swift A Frames which were/are a copper jacket as opposed to guilding metal. I think that is "stickier" than guilding metal and might have added to the problem. I think early in its life the 300 RUM was loaded with the Swift Sirocco bullet and Remington changed to Nosler or some other bullet with guilding metal jacket.

As a side note I have played a lot with bores even to the extent of having them in bench style rifles. I found the 416 Remington to be one of the most accurate and easy to load for and possibly only bettered by the 358 STA. Although for general playing around it is crippled like all the 416s by lack of bullets from Hornady, Sierra and Speer.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:
I have heard the 700/extractor issue from a few sources, and I believe that a combination of the amount of bolt thrust combined with dirt could cause the spring steel to break. They are cheap and easy to replace, you can buy 5 in the states and take them with you, but it would be disheartening to have one break in the middle of a tense moment.

John

I would not agree that they are easy to replace, just the opposite because they a riveted in with the H&H bolt face.

Anyone shoot the .416 Wby or .416 Ruger? How do they compare, pressure-wise?

Postoak - As they leave the factory, Weatherby ammunition is loaded 7000psi (approx) higher than .416 Rem.

Part of Normas strategy with the PH line was to reduce pressure. The Norma 416 PH ammo runs 7000psi below industry standards using the most temperature stable powder we can get.

Cannot comment on the 416 Ruger. it is not a cartridge we make.

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:
Anyone shoot the .416 Wby or .416 Ruger? How do they compare, pressure-wise?

I have owned a 416 Wby and have been involved with two others. It is fast factory ammo, the fastest I have seen of all the Wbys.

For example 378s typically chronograph at around 3080 with 270 grainers and you can load them to 3150 plus with Re 22. 300 Wby is usually around 3150-3180 and they will hit 3250 easy with reloads. In other words both fall short of factory ballistic claims.

416 is at 2700 plus in 26" and the early ones with 24" barrel were at 2650. Reloading with Re22 takes you no further. 416 is right on claimed velocities.

416 Remington does 2400 with ease.

The 416 Ruger is a little smaller in case capacity than the 416 Remington. I have never even seen a 416 Ruger but commonsense says if it does 2400 then pressure must be higher than the 416 Remington.

In my opinion (and this has been said by others) this whole pressure deal is people promoting themselves.

We have people raving on about 416 Remingtons locking bolts but 300 Winchester and 7mm Remington are OK. How did they slip through the forum net.

We have people saying Wby factory ammo is jamming rifles BUT Wby enthusiasts complain because the factory ammo does not make the velocity which it does not do except for the 416. Where the anti Wby people get their ammo......I would love to know because it must be special stuff

But Nosler loading data has the 416 Wby at over 2700 and in times of litigation.


When I have posted that the 378 can be easily down loaded to replicate the 375 H&H, people say...why buy a 378 and load to 375. Yet the same people are full of praise for the 416 Rigby and then procees to load it to 416 Remington or buy reduced loads in factory ammo.

It is all forum bullshit.

Here is a clue for you (not you personally, you know what I mean)....D'Arcy Echols won't get involved with RUMs because he is not all setup for perfect feeding etc and he does not need complaints. That would be very tiring. Yet he makes 416 Remingtons.

If you were to believe forum bullshit then Echols would not touch the 416 Remington.

I have owned eight 378 Wbys and I am still to see a bolt lock up with factory ammo. Now Australia is not exactly the coldest place on earth

I will bet that if you buy either a 416 Ruger or 416 Wby and fire factory ammo then either will drop out of the chamber.

But perhaps as times unfold Wby will be able to offer reduced velocity ammo for an extra price

quote:

but commonsense says if it does 2400 then pressure must be higher than the 416 Remington.

Yeah, of course, all else being equal. Maybe I shouldn't say it but Norma is lower pressure only because it is lower velocity. But don't tell anyone I said it.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

but commonsense says if it does 2400 then pressure must be higher than the 416 Remington.

Yeah, of course, all else being equal. "Maybe I shouldn't say it but Norma is lower pressure only because it is lower velocity." But don't tell anyone I said it.

You are right, it should not be said.

As I said you pay a premium for reduced loaded factory ammo

They even make it sound scientific

I can see the Wby advertisements in a year from now.....300 Wby 180 grain bullet ammunition specially developed in conjunction with NASA....guaranteed not to exceed 2700 f/s....If you find this ammunition exceeds 2700 f/s please call our toll free number for a refund.

Note: This special low velocity 300 Wby ammunition was developed with NASA and Norma. Please see our techical notes on how this special ammunition was developed.

And Remington:

Remington offers a high a technology version of the 416 Remington.

The technology that only comes from America's oldest gunmaker. Remington wishes to announce a new loading for the 416 Remington. Not 2000 f/s but 1500 f/you read that right, 1500 f/s, Yes,.... America's oldest gun maker has developed smokeless powder loadings whereby the velocity can be lower than black powder.

As America's oldest gunmaker you can rely on Remington to continue chasing the target of zero velocity and zero pressure.

Will - norma PH uses a 450grn bullet at 2180fps - so yes, differnt load and lower pressure. Regular Norma ammo loaded with Barnes 400grn banded solids or Swift A frame does 2400fps and is 200bar under CIP max

Don,

I didn't see any 400 gr. bullet loads on the Norma site, but the cartridge descriptions sound just like you!

I do like their web page. A lot of good information, even if it is blurred by your perspectives.

quote:

Originally posted by Don Heath:
Will - norma PH uses a 450grn bullet at 2180fps - so yes, differnt load and lower pressure. Regular Norma ammo loaded with Barnes 400grn banded solids or Swift A frame does 2400fps and is 200bar under CIP max

Of course it is lower pressure because a 450 grainer at 2180 is the equivalent of a 400 grainer at 2312.

Does the PH ammo cost more? and if so why.

I too have used my 416 Rem, in Win model 70 CRF, in 90+ deg heat in the Selous, and while developing loads, left them in the afternoon sun in the truck, all without a problem. I've never fired factory stuff through it, but my rifle likes a 400 gr Swift A-Frame over 78.0 grains of IMR4064, and the chrony reads 2405fps, and have never had any pressure or extraction problems.

I honestly couldn't afford to shoot factory stuff, so maybe my handloads are a happy accident, but they've worked for me.

I've had various 416Rem rifles since the cartridge was introduced, but I've fired few factory rounds. Currently I am awaiting the completion of yet another rifle in this chambering, probably my last big bore bolt rifle. I have handloaded for them with various bullets and mostly R15 powder and have yet to see any pressure issues. It's no different than loading for any other modern round, and developes no more pressure. An experienced handloader who doesn't push the limits should NEVER have any pressure issues with this cartridge. This round doesn't need to be pushed to get advertised speeds anyway, it has more than adequate case capacity to get 2370-2400fps with 400gr bullets.

Wasn't it John Taylor who first brought up (in print, at least) this pressure business?

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
Does the PH ammo cost more? and if so why.

PH, H&H, Africa ... all these words mean extra dollars.

Personally ... I cant understand why one or some batchs of bad ammunition will damn a cartridge for eternity.
Cheers...
Con

Ah Will, Try never to be too dogmatic when leaping to conclusions- you taught me that Web site nothing to do with me and the concept/ideas for the African PH line are all Kevin Robertsons (Doctari) not mine.

Norma loads plenty of .416 Rem - just you buy it as a good old American Brand. And as per SAAMI it only has to stay within Pressure up to 100ºF

There was an article in a gun magazine recently about a tour of the Norma factory. The author stated that some of the cases bore the Federal name on the base of the cases.

Is there someone who knows for sure if it includes the african ammo. It makes sense due to the premium charged for such ammunition or any equipment conjuring up images of deepest, darkest AFRICA.

Adrian