quote:

Originally posted by samir:

quote:

He does frequently put anchor shots into clients animals as they go away, but I'd hardly call that shooting it for them.

Take a look at the scene on MS video where the elephant comes into a clearing and Mark(the client) misses the elephant, it turns and MS spines it. I say misses because you can see dust coming up behind the elephant, unless of course the client got full penetration on a broadside elephant. I would call that shooting his elephant for his client. I guess most of his clients are OK with MS shooting their animals.

So let me understand Samir, the client shoots at an elephant and Sullivan is supposed to know that the client missed by way of his 1) portable overhead hunting surveillance system; 2) bionic eye implants; or, 3) God-given omniscience of all that happens around him? Absent those measures, Sullivan, like any other responsible PH, is going to assume that the client has wounded the elephant and will fire an anchoring shot to prevent its loss.

The Sullivan-haters lose credibility when they pile on bizarre-o accusations like this.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
after i have gut shot them

You really think that's what Mark actually does??? Really? If so you base your unfailing certainty in this "FACT" on?????????

Brett

on the fact that the dozens of PH'S i have talked to have never had a third of the charges that MS manages to conveniently catch on film each year in their entire career, much less year after year. somebody is doing an absolutely TERRIBLE job of first shot placement to wind up with that many charges. I have hunted with PH'S in Tz, Moz, Zim, RSA, and Bots and none of them or the other PH's in camp had ever had the "BAD LUCK" to end up facing a multiple charges year after year. I guess they were just lucky, huh.

I don't think ms takes the time to see if the client has killed the animal stone dead, or if he wounded it, or if he missed. When the client's rifle goes off (many times before) ms shoots the animal.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by samir:

quote:

He does frequently put anchor shots into clients animals as they go away, but I'd hardly call that shooting it for them.

Take a look at the scene on MS video where the elephant comes into a clearing and Mark(the client) misses the elephant, it turns and MS spines it. I say misses because you can see dust coming up behind the elephant, unless of course the client got full penetration on a broadside elephant. I would call that shooting his elephant for his client. I guess most of his clients are OK with MS shooting their animals.

Not to be argumentative, but I don't think the client missed. I do think it was a piss poor shot taken at a piss poor angle....IF it's the one I remember.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
after i have gut shot them

You really think that's what Mark actually does??? Really? If so you base your unfailing certainty in this "FACT" on?????????

Brett

on the fact that the dozens of PH'S i have talked to have never had a third of the charges that MS manages to conveniently catch on film each year in their entire career, much less year after year. somebody is doing an absolutely TERRIBLE job of first shot placement to wind up with that many charges. I have hunted with PH'S in Tz, Moz, Zim, RSA, and Bots and none of them or the other PH's in camp had ever had the "BAD LUCK" to end up facing a multiple charges year after year. I guess they were just lucky, huh.

I don't think you or the PHs are wrong about charge frequency. The point is it's not bad luck. He tries to provoke charges! That's why he gets so many charges! Like Mark says in his book avoiding charges isn't hard to do. He isn't the least bit supprised that PHs will work their whole career and never be charged by a buffalo or hippo. As he says if avoidance of danger is what you're looking for it isn't hard to do. For him he enjoys it and invites a charge whenever possible. Hence he gets charged a hell of a lot more than most PHs. This isn't rocket science folks you don't need to purposely injure animals to make them react violently. If you mess with the wrong animal on the wrong day and try to provoke a charge eventually it will happen! It's a numbers game. Most of the time wounded buff don't charge even when Mark tries. Quite frequently even sequestered bull hippo refuse to charge when provoked. If you try to provoke a charge your chances of facing one have to go up by a factor of 10!!!

Brett

Never mind if we like the guy or not - it is clear now that some do, some don't.

The bigger issue here is what happens when, for whatever reason, he fails to stop an animal that he has deliberately induced to charge and it flattens his client or staff?

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I also think it is very unprofessional to provoke a charge on a target animal. A PH's primary concern should be the safety of his client and staff. Intentionally provoking a charge can lead to putting all in unnecessary danger.

quote:

Originally posted by Milo Shanghai:
The bigger issue here is what happens when, for whatever reason, he fails to stop an animal that he has deliberately induced to charge and it flattens his client or staff?

Now here we have a real Mark Sullivan discussion. No BS no inuendo, no outright lies. Just a simple statement of FACT and a discussion about our comfort or thoughts on that fact!!! .465 H&H and Milo Shanghai you are certainly two of the adults on here! Bravo!!!!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
When the client's rifle goes off (many times before) ms shoots the animal.

Do you just make things up as you go along or is there some kind of Mark Sullivan player haters guide I don't know about? Just wondering? Mark might shoot a wounded animal before the client in a bad situation. A healthy non charging animal never. He is a profesional hunter and the client comes first.

Brett

The one thing that is FACT is that MS has about 3-4 threads going right now and is getting more free publicity than imaginable. He is probably just sitting back and smiling. Why should he go to a show (SCI) when he has his name up in BIG neon lights on boards like this.
If I was him I would not show up for a while and this thread just keeps going and his name in front of the world. The posters on this board are fairly polarized however just scanning responses it would appear 80% of the folks probably have concerns about he was treated by SCI.
Bare in mind you cannot help but think some of his clients may be thrill seekers after seeing his videos. They may "want" the charge!

BTW: Make that 5 threads right here on African hunting alone.

EZ

I rewatched that vid and I think the client connected first shot, high and back.

Watched Mbogo again and it's not a bad movie. I think it was late in this one or the next he discovered the thrill, and the commercial potential, for the charge. In Mbogo they approach the wounded buff in the CAR! For SAFETY!

Are you guys jealous he has a 600 nitro express?or is it that he is a PH,and you always wanted to be one? or he sells a lot of his DVDS?


Yep, all of the above.

Just to be clear, I wasn't being sarcastic. I really am jealous and I would love to trade lives with MS even with all the controversy that surrounds him. I do hope to hunt with him some day although he is a little expensive for my budget.

In regards to the number of wounded animals he enounters I think that might have something to do with the use of unscoped double rifles. I owned a 470 double and really didn't care for it. They are just not as inherently accurate as a scoped or unscoped bolt action. I notice in the two MS videos I have the guys with the scoped bolt action rifles drop their buffalo in an efficient manner while the guys with the doubles typically have a much more difficult time. As far as I can tell, MS is more than upfront about his hunting methods and philosophy so those that think him unethical can just not hunt with him.

Dead is dead.

Brett,

start with the video "Black Death".
Those videos are all so heavily edited it's hard to follow the thread.
Now, repeat after me "if the PH fires a shot, the hunt is a failure...".

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Brett,

start with the video "Black Death".
Those videos are all so heavily edited it's hard to follow the thread.
Now, repeat after me "if the PH fires a shot, the hunt is a failure...".

Rich
DRSS

Rich,

I couldn't disagree with you more on this issue. If your whole satisfaction on a hunt is predicated on whether your PH fires a shot, you hunt enough and you will have one or more failures. The satisfaction of the hunt should be (at least for me) the total experience. Part of that is making sure that no wounded animal ever gets away. All of us and that includes YOU will make a shot that doesn't do what you wanted it to do. Maybe from placing it in the wrong place, it hits a twig that you didn't see and tumbles, the animal charges and the PH has a shot and you don't etc. All are situations that I expect my PH to chime in. Lord I could go on for several pages with more examples. With all due respect, I suggest that you reevaluate your definition of a successful hunt. I think you will be a happier man if you do.

465H&H

Everyone is entitled to their opinion on what is a successful hunt. If that includes no shots was by the PH, fine. However, that has nothing to do with a successful hunt to me.

A successful hunt to me has many attributes including that no one got hurt. Personally, if I gut shot a DG animal, it wouldn't bother me in the least if the PH fired. While I would certainly rather kill the critter with a single shot myself, I would far rather the PH assist than have someone killed or hurt badly. I would far rather the PH shoot if I shot badly rather than let some animals suffer and possibly never find it.

Whenever I hunt DG, I always have a discussion with the PH about him shooting. I tell them that if I have blown the shot and wounded the animal with what they judge to be a non lethal shot, then by all means fire away. While, I have never had a PH fire a shot a a buff, elephant, rhino, or leopard, I did have a PH fire a shot at a charging wounded cattle killing lion that I shot after killing 2 other lions. That was one of my most memorable hunts. Hell, I was glad he shot. Although I hammered the charging lion hard before the PH shot, the fact of it was the lion was coming straight for me. That hunt was anything but unsuccessful.

I will take it one step further. I would not allow a DG animal to be followed in the dark. it just isn't worth it to me.

Perhaps Mr Sullivan has similar conversations with clients.

To each his own.

What is so heavily edited in Marks videos,there is none.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
When the client's rifle goes off (many times before) ms shoots the animal.

Do you just make things up as you go along or is there some kind of Mark Sullivan player haters guide I don't know about? Just wondering? Mark might shoot a wounded animal before the client in a bad situation. A healthy non charging animal never. He is a profesional hunter and the client comes first.

Brett

Brett,

Kudos to you for taking the contrarian stance. I think the piling on is due to the fact that our Host alleges loudly and often of Sullivan's buffalo littering the landscape. Serious charges, with zero proof.

Oh by the way Brett, I find this site much more enjoyable with "Net Commando" ISS on the ignore list.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Brett,

start with the video "Black Death".
Those videos are all so heavily edited it's hard to follow the thread.
Now, repeat after me "if the PH fires a shot, the hunt is a failure...".

Rich
DRSS

Rich,

I couldn't disagree with you more on this issue. If your whole satisfaction on a hunt is predicated on whether your PH fires a shot, you hunt enough and you will have one or more failures. The satisfaction of the hunt should be (at least for me) the total experience. Part of that is making sure that no wounded animal ever gets away. All of us and that includes YOU will make a shot that doesn't do what you wanted it to do. Maybe from placing it in the wrong place, it hits a twig that you didn't see and tumbles, the animal charges and the PH has a shot and you don't etc. All are situations that I expect my PH to chime in. Lord I could go on for several pages with more examples. With all due respect, I suggest that you reevaluate your definition of a successful hunt. I think you will be a happier man if you do.

465H&H

An excellent summation Mr. 465H&H.

OK! Some of you have had occasions where you needed help to get the job done. I haven't. So do NOT assume that I will if I hunt enough.

I killed all of my animals, on two trips to Africa, including a Cape Buffalo; where does that leave me? I think the word is competent.
I do my own killing. I will walk around if I cannot get a good shot in, until I can or the animal leaves.

I don't envy ms, I feel sorry for him. Guys like that get other guys killed.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
OK! Some of you have had occasions where you needed help to get the job done. I haven't. So do NOT assume that I will if I hunt enough.

I killed all of my animals, on two trips to Africa, including a Cape Buffalo; where does that leave me? I think the word is competent.
I do my own killing. I will walk around if I cannot get a good shot in, until I can or the animal leaves.

I don't envy ms, I feel sorry for him. Guys like that get other guys killed.

Rich
DRSS

Statements of perfection have a way of biting you in the ass in the future. Good luck with that.

quote:

Guys like that get other guys killed.

No, hunters who don't know their limitations and ask the PH not to shoot get guys (PHs, trackers, locals) killed.

One of the great hunters of our time joked to me once that "anyone with 10,000 posts on an internet forum doesn't do much hunting". I have no beef with you, but you really do need to think more & post less.

Jealous isn't the word I had in mind. Vomit comes to mind though.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
OK! Some of you have had occasions where you needed help to get the job done. I haven't. So do NOT assume that I will if I hunt enough.

I killed all of my animals, on two trips to Africa, including a Cape Buffalo; where does that leave me? I think the word is competent.
I do my own killing. I will walk around if I cannot get a good shot in, until I can or the animal leaves.

I don't envy ms, I feel sorry for him. Guys like that get other guys killed.

Rich
DRSS

"Where does that leave you"?

It leaves you with 2 African safaris under your belt and a lot to learn.

The more you hunt Africa, the more open minded you will become.

There is no substitute for experience.

quote:

Originally posted by samir:

quote:

He does frequently put anchor shots into clients animals as they go away, but I'd hardly call that shooting it for them.

Take a look at the scene on MS video where the elephant comes into a clearing and Mark(the client) misses the elephant, it turns and MS spines it. I say misses because you can see dust coming up behind the elephant, unless of course the client got full penetration on a broadside elephant. I would call that shooting his elephant for his client. I guess most of his clients are OK with MS shooting their animals.

Cripes! missing a broadside elephant is some really poor shooting I guess ole MS couldn't believe it either surprises me he could aim his own double for laughing so hard.

John Frederick,

so, how many do you have? Ever had to have your PH kill your wounded game for you?

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Jack D Bold:
Oh by the way Brett, I find this site much more enjoyable with "Net Commando" ISS on the ignore list.

I hear you. The problem is I've met Rich in person and happened to like him! He just seems to get a little carried away at times behind the keyboard!

Brett

quote:

...... Guys like that get other guys killed.

You statement sounds like you have absolute facts and statistics to support it.

1. How many people has MS got killed? At least one out of the hundreds of charges he has been involved in?
2. Are all the hunting tragedies caused by people like MS?
3. Do you have some data to compare the personalities, hunting methods, circumstances etc. to make this absolute conclusion?

I understand that you are a lawyer. I suggest that you might start losing clients if they saw you logic or lack of it.

I have never hunted Africa or DG. But I have been charged by elephants in India a few times and once it was a miraculous escape of 1 meter where we could feel the heat of 3 cows and the dust and pebbles they churned up! Yes we were in a jeep & got away.

On other occasions we have been charged by a solitary bull elephant in "musth" because my dad would provoke it with a tiger roar and take a great action photo at 7 to 10 yards and then run to the jeep. Yes this is adrenaline junkey stuff. You want facts on this subject... dad just completed his 85th birthday last week and is in full time care. If you are lucky he might remember a few such instances. He might not find the photos as it is over 15 years since he packed up his home. Yes there are his former staff & colleagues alive still who can vouch for this.

I am not a lawyer but I understand the difference between facts, passionate opinions and outright prejudice.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
John Frederick,

so, how many do you have? Ever had to have your PH kill your wounded game for you?

Rich
DRSS

Rich I've been hunting for most of my life, but not that long in the scheme of things. I would imagine I'm an above average shot/hunter in ability, but hardly a savant or master. That said I've wounded an animal from time to time. It just happens. You can't always make a perfect shot. Weather it's unseen grass or twigs, mechanical failure, or just plain a bad shot! It happens! I don't know how long you've been hunting, but being an older gentleman I'd imagine you've been hunting for some time now. That said I'm 100% sure if you've actually done a lot of hunting you've wounded an animal or two and likely even had one or two get away from you! I'll admit I have! If you hunt Africa enough it WILL happen there too. If you think I'm full of it just ask your good friend Craig Boddington. I'm sure he could relay a BUNCH of stories of wounded game he's had over the years. I'm also equally sure he would tell you the PH having to shoot doesn't equal failure!

Brett

Brett a touch off topic but I'm curious how often you have hunted DG in Africa vs. watched tv shows and videos.
I've made a few an have collected 4 of the big 5, not said as demeaning towards you. I've read many of your prolific posts an can not but wonder at your experience.

After reading all these posts, and some on other threads, the one thing which strikes me is it seems quite obvious that Idaho Sharp Shooter has a hard on about MS. From reading all the posts, it's still not clear why but it's there for sure. He has a weed up his ass for some reason and goes out of his way to deride MS at every opportunity.

What it reminds me of, as a parallel, is why some people who hated Wayne Gretsky as a hockey player, it was just because of who he was; a great hockey player.

From my impression, ISS is calling bullshit on MS for no good reason other than attempting to be known for calling BS on MS. Surely ISS will carry on as he has been.

Bobby B.

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:
Brett a touch off topic but I'm curious how often you have hunted DG in Africa vs. watched tv shows and videos. I've read many of your prolific posts an can not but wonder at your experience.

Not a problem. I'm an open book. I've hunted Africa/DG exactly once. I did a buffalo hunt in the Selous in 2006. I purchased my practice a year ago, so I've had other things on my plate...unfortunately! I'm looking at going back to Tanzania in 2012 for a full bag lion hunt. Since my first hunt I've had a lot else going on so I've had to settle for AR, reading, videos, and hunting here in North America to pass the time. I could go back before then and do some less expensive hunts, but I REALLY want to do the lion hunt! Congrats on your big four!

Brett

PS. Sorry if any of my posts mislead anyone into thinking I had vast amounts of personal experience with African hunting. Certainly not my intent.

Dang! You mean I got more bakkie seat time in Africa than you do, to date? I expect you to fix that shortcoming, and soon.

I am very lucky to date, never shot at anything that got away yet. Yes, I consider the PH having to take a shot at my game a failure on one or both our parts. It means, unless I was hunting with mark sullivan, that I made a poor shot. Myles McCallom did not fire a shot on my Buffalo hunt in 2008. My Buffalo never moved ten feet after I shot him the first time. I shot again to ensure as quick and as painless a death for that Bull as possible. Reon von Tonden did not have his rifle on the plains game hunt. He WAS pretty keen to shoot my doubles though. Hunting has been my primary pastime for more than thirty years. From Bison, to Elk, to Black Bears, to deer, to Coyotes and Rockchucks; I use enough rifle to do the job, and I probably have averaged twenty hours a week, year in and year out, shooting at the range and afield. It's what I do...


regards,

Rich
DRSS

Naki,

man I almost envy you for the father you had. That must have been a fantastic time in your life. It is sad, that he is not going out like he lived. My father was 82nd Airborne in WWII. He went in over Normandy in a glider. He saw enough killing to last him a lifetime in a week. I learned to shoot and hunt and track with my Grandfather.

I have hunted the most dangerous game, over a three year span. Based on having killed a number of enemy combatants in face to face situations, and used a knife on more than one occasion; I feel more than qualified to comment. Not bragging, just stating a few facts to establish my background.
I saw a few reckless men like mark sullivan in Vietnam. If he is anything like his videos, he is foolhardy. He is not perfect, and each time he plays the fool in a video, he has put his own, and other people's life in danger. He's well past the Law of Averages for an oops. I just hope if somebody gets crippled or killed, it is mark, not the client who has placed his life in mark's hands.

regards,

Rich
DRSS

Rich
Thanks for your comment. One correction, I still have my dad, though he is under full time care. My wife just visited him last week in India and he still remembers most of us and still looks at family photos in his bible. he just does not remember my youngest, as he was only 6 months old when dad saw him 8 years ago.

May I suggest something to you with genuine intentions ...If you look back at the various posts, you will see that many people have advised you to back off & let go of MS.

My sincere suggestion is to read MS's open letter and accept his personal comments rather than believing other rumors. His denial of having a non-disclosure agreement with clients is a very interesting point. His admission of his clients wounding 5 buffalo in 1997 because he decided to try and avoid shooting is another interesting point.

I wonder why there are so few PHs posting on these MS threads! ???? Any ideas anybody???

My first Buff would have made an excellent video at least the last few seconds,old Dugga by himself....the three solids that some one told me to shoot Buff with had no apparent effect esxept to make him run toward the Bots border, less than 2 clicks away.Now it is time for the video....we walked up on him, I put another solid thru him and he turned and mounted a rather feele charge....my PH put one in his neck and he fell around 6 feet from me....I had jacked another round and was trying to aim between his eyes....was I upset at PH? Hell NO!
We locked eyes the Buff and me, as he fell , looking at me all the way down...and the on side leg was still digging to get up and meet me more personally when I circled and put another solid, this one worked, between his shoulders. He now rests above the mantle...

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Dang! You mean I got more bakkie seat time in Africa than you do, to date? I expect you to fix that shortcoming, and soon.

I'm going to try. Like I said though I'm waiting to do the lion hunt, so it could be a couple years unfortunately.

Brett

I try not to take personal shots at anyone as I feel it lessens the character of the "shooter" but Geeze Louise Rich, A.K.A. Idaho Sharpshooter could you please loose the macho heroic chest thumping about your 'Nam days? Many here myself included served their country in the fubar called Vietnam. No one needs to remind you the peak of the conflict was more than 40 years ago an most of us have gained a near amount in body weight since our hand to hand romps in the grass. I hope the three tours you keep boasting about are not the high point in your life, if they are that is sad. I an I assume others cannot help but wonder if Mr. Sullivan's macho thrill seeking is not seen by yourself as ego threatening an the root of your jealousy.

Reading this forum is bringing a lot of enjoyment to an old man who has never hunted Africa. Opinions appear to be as varied as the people and their experience. My reading is not hindered by knowledge or experience, only envy. This computer has a use after all. Thanks to all.
Rick

quote:

Originally posted by akrick:
Reading this forum is bringing a lot of enjoyment to an old man who has never hunted Africa. Opinions appear to be as varied as the people and their experience. My reading is not hindered by knowledge or experience, only envy. This computer has a use after all. Thanks to all.
Rick

You wouldn't happen to be the gentleman Saeed reffered to that just discovered the internet had worth? If so that's a great story. Either way welcome to the forum!!!!

Brett

NakiHunter,

I meant that it is sad to see that he will not kick the back doors in on his way out of this life the way he kicked the front doors in when he came to this life.

My Father was lucky, he had called my wife and I on a Sunday evening and we talked about an hour. He promised me, if he made it to spring he and my Mother would come out for a couple weeks visit. The next evening he felt poorly, and he drove himself and Mother to the hospital.
An hour later he passed away.

The cruelest thing about life, is that we don't just get to gather the family and friends together one last time and say "I am dying, and I want to tell you all how I feel about you before I go...". And then go.

You and your family, and your Father's friends have my deepest sympathies. Tell him some "Yank" sends his best wishes.

regards,

Rich
DRSS