I've seen a number of guys post who have been on several safaris. What points do you normally negotiate on? Daily rates? Trophy fees? Number of days?
Of course I'm making the assumption that no one pays face value as everything in Africa it seems is negotiable.

quote:

Originally posted by bluefin:
Of course I'm making the assumption that no one pays face value as everything in Africa it seems is negotiable.

Don't bet on it...... many/most safari companies that offer a good quality product, (including my own) don't do that sort of thing. Quality comes at a price. The good companies aren't out to rook you, all they want to do is deliver a good product at a fair price, pay the bills and get by.

The last time I went into a supermarket or a petrol station etc, they weren't willing to negotiate.........

quote:

Originally posted by bluefin:
I've seen a number of guys post who have been on several safaris. What points do you normally negotiate on? Daily rates? Trophy fees? Number of days?

Dates

It may depend on where and with whom you are hunting, but currently, there seem to be more would-be hunters then hunts, and getting your desired dates is an accomplishment.

Ditto if you prefer to hunt with a certain PH, or a specific concession, or for a specific trophy. As you place more constraints on the hunt, expect less of the "negotiating" to be about price.

On some hunts, such as in Zimbabwe or Zambia, getting additional quota reserved requires some effort. An example would be a buffalo hunt in an area where there are limited tags for plainsgame such as bushbuck, kudu or eland plus maybe hippo (animals which do not require minimum days). There is competition for these tags.

On hunts for multiple species (say leopard and buffalo, or elephant and buffalo, or buffalo and croc), often the total days are reduced versus buying two separate hunts, resulting in a lower total cost. Ditto if hunting two of the same animal, just realize that there are often hard costs for hunts that the PHs/outfitters must pay to the concession holder.

If you are interested in hunting non-trophies, ask about management hunts (culls, meat for camp, etc).

Keep an eye on the little things (beer, transport, rifle rent, etc), and in the past the observer (wife, child) has been negotiable to some extent understanding that there are gov't costs in some countries (Tanzania) and/or costs charged by the concesion holder imposed. Video taping of your hunt can be a deal with some companies. Regarding the day rates, some countries might be more competitive (South Africa) then others and the companies used to dealing on these, but be careful as those apt to deal might be the ones that would not have been your primary choices.

On rare occassions, an operator will get a concession late in the year (after the shows) and needs to move quota.

If you like "adventure", look for a country where security concerns limit the number of perspective hunters (like CAR), or an area that has never been hunted before. Just be prepared for a possible busted hunt or worse, and deal with it.

Low Price, Top Quality, Your Dates...you can always get one, sometimes two, but almost never all three.

If you are looking for a real deal, consider waiting until the end of the year and taking advantage of cancelled hunts or unshot quota, with one of the top operators. Select a few companies and/or booking agents and ask to be notified of end of year opportunities, and stay in touch with them as the year progresses. Subscribe to newsletters offered by many booking agencies, and keep an eye on AR. But be ready to move quickly.

Bluefin

You've been given some good advise by Steve and Bill. If a safari operator is willing to negotiate on prices with you from the gitgo you should look at the deal very carefully. I personally have only seen a deal avaialbe when a guy was able to bring a huge group on a safari therefore he might have gotten some consideration on his own hunt or a late season hunt for some left over quota.

The last thing I might say is if you are looking firstly to book a cheap safari that is what you will most likely get. I just recently talked to a couple of guys who bought a safari that they saved a few dollars on. Only one got his buffalo, there was no refrigeration, bad food, multiple flat tires and on and on. Your not buying a used car here you are buying an expereince.

Mark

Very good answers. I came across this quote some time ago and it is just a life's truth.

John Rushkin (1819-1900) could have been thinking of safaris in 2008 when he wrote:

"It's unwise to pay too much but it's unwise to pay too little. When you pay too much you lose a little money, that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing you bought it to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot. It can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it's well to add something for the risk you run. And if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better!"

Bluefin
I only have done one plains game hunt in Namibia.
If you are dealing with the owner of the ranch, you are better able to work out a deal. I worked out a daily rate of $250.00 for my wife and my self.
Bird hunts were no extra charge, I got a discount on black wildebeest as a last minute trophy.
The more involved a hunt is DG vs PG, Namibia vs
Zambia or tanz. the less you can expect to save.

With out a local agent involved , you have no one to help solve problems if they come up or legal recourse if there are serious problems.
On a ranch hunt for plains game go for and it check them out, any thing like a mixed bag dangerous game hunt be more carefull.

What is your time worth? Sometimes using a good agent or dealing with a well known ph may be your best deal from a $, time, and stress standpoint.

JD

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by bluefin:
Of course I'm making the assumption that no one pays face value as everything in Africa it seems is negotiable.

Don't bet on it...... many/most safari companies that offer a good quality product, (including my own) don't do that sort of thing. Quality comes at a price. The good companies aren't out to rook you, all they want to do is deliver a good product at a fair price, pay the bills and get by.

The last time I went into a supermarket or a petrol station etc, they weren't willing to negotiate.........

Notice the origin of that response.
Just protecting his own pocket book.

Yeah, right. If I was in the business of giving discounts, I'd admit to it because it'd bring me in more business. Sharp thinking Sherlock.

Y'know, even before I checked your profile, I KNEW most of your posts would be on the political forum.......

Hey don,
Any chance of getting a dumbass gremlin?

Another thought, sometimes when you are on the ground in Africa opportunities will arise, such as problem animals, extra quota on your concession or a neighboring one, etc. More so later in the season after some hunters have come thru, and possibly not taken all the game on their license. Here you can haggle with your PH, and/or your PH can haggle on your behalf.

On my last hunt, I could have stayed extra days and hunted more game at a reduced price, and of course the "overhead" of getting there had already been paid.

I would agree that the main thing that I negotiate is the dates. Next would be area to be hunted, PH who I will hunt with, and quotas available. When booking a hunt, you should realize that most of the best hunts are booked up years in advance, kind of a sellers market. If you don't buy it, somebody else is standing in line that will. Many dates get filled up quickly every year at the major safari shows in January, DSC, SCI.

ireload 2

You sound just like a member of the group of people that assumes everybody is out to cheat them. In the safari booking business what I find is those folks are the ones who often end up booking the safaris that turn out to be total cluster f--ks. In almost all cases you will get what you pay for in a safari.

Mark

I didn't mean to get the booking agents whirled up here. I was at the SCI convention in Dallas and saw numerous folks negotiating hunts. Even overheard folks saying 'I'll get back with you and I'll see what I can do'. That infers negotiating. As far as I know most of the organizations there are legit.
I was looking to see what the more seasoned guys do to negotiate. I went to Africa once and negotiated what I thought was a pretty good deal. He advertised a certain plains game hunt and had some animals as part of his package that I didn't care for. We basically reshuffled the deck with what I wanted and he even threw in some extra days. I did find out later that I went in the early part of the season (July) and there was only one other hunter in camp with me. But that was fine by me. Heck, I'd do it again in a second.

Shakari,
I'll bet if you went into the grocery store and told them that you'd be spending +/- $20,000 they'd be more than willing to throw a few freebies in...

Bluefin,

You didn't get me whirled up at all, so don't worry about it. If you think you can go to the conventions, negotiate and get a deal, then that's exactly what you should do.

I don't attend the conventions and rarely use agents and I don't negotiate. I price a safari on a set formula allowng for a set profit margin and I don't rip people off, all I do is earn a living. You either pay the fair price I ask or you're welcome to go elsewhere. If someone thinks that US$20K or whatever goes in my pocket, they're very mistaken. I earn a living and that's all. Most of the cost of a safari is taken up by government and other fees. - Believe me, actual profit margins are very low.

Sure you might be able to negotiate with some companies, but if they are willing to do that, there's a reason for it. - Ask yourself what that might be and then ask yourself if they'll give you the same quality product you'd have got if you'd paid the full price compared to if you'd negotiated with them for a discount.

One thing is for sure in the safari business.... just like everything else in life, you don't get what you don't pay for.

I may just be slow, but, we have never negotiated with our ph over anything except massaging the dates a bit. I figure that he knows his costs. I don't negotiate our bids to clients, since, I figure that I did a pretty good job estimating the project the first time.

Generally, there will be no negotiations on the better hunts. Certainly for DG on government concessions. Outfitters have very large overhead and any discount they may offer comes out of their pocket.

But once while shopping a Namibia PG hunt at Reno SCI, I was offered "two-fers." The outfitter was willing to give me two of several PG species, including kudu and eland for the price of one, if I was willing to hunt in October. He readily admitted he had virtually no clients after the middle of September, and always had animals left on quota. Hence, the two for one offer.

Hello Bluefin

Bill C has basically described my own experience very well. I would second his recommendations.

I think the European hunters have access to some outfitters that we do not see, and even though the Euro is at 1.5 you can still hunt some of these areas at rates far less than what you would pay at the convention.

There is some risk when booking with less known outfitters but checking the references and doing your home work will pay off.

I would most definitely not recommend this for ones first African Safari.

Regards
Aziz

Bluefin- You should also consider doing your booking before the major marketing shows in the US. The shows really are a seller's dream. Is it just me, or are we seeing a little post show letdown now in that it seems there are quite a few good dates, opportunity, and pricing still available? And I'm talking about the operators who at this time last year and the year before were pretty well filled up. Economics??

Bluefin,

Bill C has pretty much covered it all in his post.

I ask for a specfic hunt - animals wanted and number of hunting days and hunters involved.

If the price is reasonable, I take it.

If the price seems too low, or too high, I say "thank you" and go look elsewhere.

I never actually negotiate.

I follow the same rules going to restaurants.

I know how much it costs to have a meal there, and I will gladly pay the price + their service charge.

If the food and service is not up to scratch, I pay the bill, and refuse to pay the service charge.

I don't expect to get something for nothing, neither I expect to pay for something I do not get.

I've only been on one Safari, I went with my son wo was 18. The PH didn't specifically have a 2x1 rate for the package we wanted so we negotiated 2 extra days instead. We hunted together alternating stalks so for us the 2x1 worked well and it worked well for the PH. He also arranged for us a day of fishing for yellowfish with a guide friend of his. I expected to pay for this, but Nihan included it. His theory and a good business model, was to exceed our expectations and then have me rebook (working on wife) or receommend him on internet boards all over the world.

www.huntersgame.co.za ph Nihan Engelbrecht

If you break it down to motivation, the Outfitter has two concerns. Making an honest living and giving his client a great hunt. If you want to cut into his honest living part he might need to cut into the great hunt part. Spouse price is often negotiable as it is mostly gravy. I would not even try to negotiate price on days or trophy fees before the hunt. Now if you are interested in hunting birds, vermin or cull then just ask the P.H. the price. Most guys are not to concerned about these things as it typically does not cost them a penny and it makes the client happy (happy client=happy camp). I was narrowing down my 2003 hunt when I asked the operator if he had any baboons that needed a good shooting. Hell, shoot all you want! was his reply. That sold me on his outfit and I booked three weeks with him. Me and the land owner made a game out of shooting babo’s, even swapping each others rifles twice and shooting them off a huge pile of oranges he baited them with (hunting a citrus plantation). It made for an excellent adventure.
Also I might throw out that twice I mentioned to the outfitters that I was allergic to shellfish so please leave it off my menu. When they said “no problem†I mentioned that I was not allergic to steak. Both times I was able to get a big delicious steak at each meal. Since we were eating game it was not costing the outfitter much and even became a running joke I was teased about. One camp had a young boy cooking my steak and at the end of the hunt I handed him my fishing rod. (all the monetary tips were divided equally in this camp so I wanted to give this boy a special thanks).
Let the guys make the honest living they need to, it wont help you to save a few bucks in the long run. Be open with the outfitter about stuff that you would like to do/see/shoot and when you get in country just let him take over. He is looking out for both of you.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill C:
Low Price, Top Quality, Your Dates...you can always get one, sometimes two, but almost never all three.

That quote really simplifies a complicated process. I feel fortunate if I can get 2 of the 3! Low prices are relative. Ever priced a decent Alaskan hunt vs. African hunts? You pay far more for less value on a dollar for dollar basis and that's coming from an Alaskan!

Lots of good info here from the perspective of clients, booking agents and the PHs too. Most everyone is saying the same thing that Bill said.

quote:

Originally posted by yukon delta:
You pay far more for less value on a dollar for dollar basis and that's coming from an Alaskan!

That's why I'm glad I never had to "book" to hunt here.

Nice grizz. That's the problem with Africa...they don't have stuff like that...no matter how high the fence! Ok boys, settle down.

My experience, as a client in Namibia and as an outfitter in Montana, is that "deals" as you put it "happen" with repeat clients; not some guy who calls you out of the blue.

There are fixed costs for everything and you must understand that, quality costs and some things are just expencive no matter what. Having a paying client after the season is generally done is gravy, you might get a break then, especially if you are not demanding on trophy quality or you might be willing to shoot something the PH or ranch owner has a surplus of or that most hunters would not want as a trophy. (cow eland, cow wildebeest, broken horn animals come to mind.)

That said there is the "pain in the ass factor" with certain clients. High maintainance, demanding clients, no matter how many years they re-book will never get any kind of deal. I had one for 13 straight years for two weeks at a time, fantastic tipper (may be the only reason I put up with him...), but picky as hell about food and drink, never shut up and was always bitching about something, always wanted something special and always wanted to change the itinery no matter what the cost or problem. He always paid full fair. Had another client that was a peach, we still fish together and are friends. He always booked "off-season", was happy to be here and was always game to try whatever I thought would be the best bet. Eventually, he was paying only the hard costs of his trip, a conciderable savings over the first gentleman's bill.

Quite honestly, as an outfitter, I was always very much put off by potential first time clients I'd never met that asked for a "deal". As a client I'd be very complimented if an outfitter I previously worked with "offered" me a deal, it says a lot about what type of client you are, or aren't.

A reply to an earlier comment.

I have had the misfortune of dealing directly with a hunting company in Tanzania after having used an outfitter on a previous trip. The headache of dealing with some safari companies will far outweigh the cost savings if any. Shakari is right. Most safari companies don't negotiate. My understanding is that outfitters don't charge anymore from the hunter they just take profits from the company for their services. I would highly recommend using an outfitter. They deal with all the BS and you have the fun.

Brett

I have successfully negotiated some of the terms of a couple safaris, and had great trips. It helps when you are talking about a more complicated trip with numerous animals.

To simplify, once when hunting alone I negotiated a trophy fee reduction once I reached a certain limit. For example (I don't remember the exact numbers), If I had already shot $10K worth of trophy fees, the next $10K in trophy fees would be at 90% cost. I didn't negotiate the original price structure, but felt that if I was particularly successful a price break might be apprpriate and the PH agreed. I was already paying the daily rate and covering expenses, so the more I shot the greater his profit. At some point, it seemed fair to begin reducing his profit margin.

On another trip, with my wife and two sons, we negotiated rates on the others coming along (and hunting, at least opart time) and the boys shot non-trophy animals at lesser prices. These sorts of deals are ripe for negotiating. Now on a single animal hunt, like elephant, there isn't a lot to negotiate.
Good luck.
Bill

Some safari companies have high daily rates and low trophy fees, another company may have low daily rates and high trophy fees, that is a marketing device, and it all boils down to the hunts are probably about the same in the overall picture...

If you get your Safari negociated down, then you are going to give up some of the quality of the hunt, plain and simple, all that glitters is not gold, like anything else you get what you pay for...

It costs x dollars to do a Safari, Safari Companies that remain in business charge x dollars to stay in business, that includes a written in profit..Some Companies that cannot find clients will negociate and pretty quick they are no longer in business, and someone is going to take it in the shorts, much the same as when any other business goes out, the last customers get the shaft..Welcome to the real world.

Find a hunt that has what you want, is a well established organization, check references and pay the extra grand, after all your going half way around the world, spending a lot of money to start with, In my contact with clients at the trade shows and on the phone and emails, I have heard to many sad stories over and over again of failed hunts, some real and some not so real...

Bluefin-
If you want a deal------then book with a quaility outfit
that's always the best deal going

best of luck--

Obviously if you book thru an agent the hunt has already been discounted to them by 10-20% so that alone limits the wiggle room. On the other hand if one doesn"t use an agent you lose the advantage of His expertise and experience which in most instances is worth the 15-20%. I have been on some very inexpensive hunts with great results but not because I am a great negotiator. I just love this African thing and occasionally something wonderful comes along if you look long and hard enuf.

Don't use a booking agent. They are paid 15% of your daily fees as a commission. Now that you know that you also know that any company that books through agents has a 15% markup built in. No booking agent means that you should be able to negotiate 15% off the top on daily fees, if they won't I'd look elsewhere.

I'm surprised that all of you over the top honest outfitters didn't bring that up.

Why don't you list everyone you have used that took OUT the 15% since you didn't use an agent?

There's a whole lot of excellent operators that would NOT do that for you...so I'm interested to see your list.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Yeah, right. If I was in the business of giving discounts, I'd admit to it because it'd bring me in more business. Sharp thinking Sherlock.

Y'know, even before I checked your profile, I KNEW most of your posts would be on the political forum.......

Hey don,
Any chance of getting a dumbass gremlin?

Steve,

We love "Ireload" down on the Cesspool. He's got such a friendly nature. Like a croc

Any PH who does pass on the commission he normally pays his agents to someome booking directly with him is not worth dealing with, and won't last very long in business.

Simple business ethics.

Saeed is absolutlely right.

It's a funny thing about some sectors of the hunting public, they expect and accept that companies in other sectors of business are in business to earn a profit and they don't bleat about that. Indeed, they don't even mind the large conglomerates making obscene profits, but many of them seem to think a safari company should give their services away FOC and not make a profit. The truth of the matter is that no-one in the safari business makes a fortune. We earn a fairly modest profit but that's all.

Figures might look high, but spare a moment to think about the costs of running the business. Fully equipped hunting vehicles cost close to US$100K each and last 3 - 4 years, Government fees, fuel costs, safety costs, anti poaching, costs to maintain PH licences etc etc etc. - believe me, you'd make more money running a supermarket or driving a truck than you do hunting. It's not at all unusual for a PH to earn not much more than US$100 a day - sometimes less. How much do you pay to call someone out to fix your washing machine? - Probably considerably more than the PH earns in an entire day. On that daily salary, the PH has to run a home and pay his bills and for that, he's working one way or another pretty much every hour he's awake. He also gets no free health care or pension etc.

Then those that do manage to negotiate some kind of special deal out of some poor sucker, are suprised that when things go tits up on them. - Wow, what a suprise.

It's actually quite simple. You wouldn't spend US$200 on buying a car and expect it run all day, every day and keep your family safe in event of a crash. You wouldn't get in a plane that hadn't been properly maintained and had engines pissing oil etc, nor would you trust your life to a rifle that you'd bought for US$20 and had a habit of misfiring...... so why on earth, trust your life to a hunt you'd negotiated down to the lowest possible price. A safari simply has to cost what it costs.

Bear this in mind, if safari companies can't earn a living, then they go out of business. If that happens, the hunting industry dies and the game gets poached out and you've lost your sport and the game populations forever......

If you're still insistent on trying to negotiate, do it, but don't be suprised when you get a lower level of safari or hunting area etc as a consequence.

Saeed,

PM sent......

Booking trough an agent or directly with us you will pay the same fee. So skipping the agent will not get you anywhere.

quote:

No booking agent means that you should be able to negotiate 15% off the top on daily fees

Loosing a percentage to a booking agent is not loosing at all. After all who saved on marketing, follow ups and doing the paperwork for the specific client the outfitter. A lot of the agents also try and keep your money in your own country and you have the security of that and someone as to pay for that.

The easiest way to negotiate anything when hunting is to negotiate the animals in a package the more the animals the easier to negotiate. Daily rates unless a group rate are very difficult to negotiate.

This is getting rather funny.

I got an email asking me if I get any free hunts from all the PHs and outfitters that frequent AR.

The answer is no, but any outfitter or PH who wish to let me have a free hunt, it will be greatfully accepted.

But please bear in mind that I will only accept a hunt similar to a hunt I would normally book myself.

This year's safari is probably going to cost about $400K. So only hunts of that range will be considered!

Aishhh........ Now there's an idea, we'll all start giving 'em away to save all that sales hassle and awkward negotating.

When someone wants a "friendly price" I typicaly juice it up about 10%. If they want to be my friend they might as well pay for it! ( yeah, I know I'm cheap, but whats a guy to do?)

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
Don't use a booking agent. They are paid 15% of your daily fees as a commission. Now that you know that you also know that any company that books through agents has a 15% markup built in. No booking agent means that you should be able to negotiate 15% off the top on daily fees, if they won't I'd look elsewhere.

I'm surprised that all of you over the top honest outfitters didn't bring that up.

That sounds like a conspiracy... maybe it should be investigated further??