Not to add any fuel to this whole Stu debate, but one thing not mentioned here by anyone that I've seen thus far is...

What about the release I've signed with every professional hunter/outfitter relieving them of liability if I get hurt during the because of a situation that may occur?

Hunting ph's/outfitters/companies surely don't mind requiring Clients signing away their rights prior to a hunt , seems like a double standard. Just food for thought.
(I say this, with tons of friends who are Ph's, some very close) Should clients start requiring Ph's to sign similar releases? That would be a novel concept.

(I make this point from a legal standpoint, not a moral one. As individuals, we all have different beliefs about moral responsibilities.)

I personally believe we all participate in multiple dangerous activities daily. I personally travel in the car for work most days, all day...and there's surely more accidents on the roads in Texas than while on safaris. However, I get up, and do my job everyday, and take that chance. I imagine it's no different as a PH.

I think the risk of being shot comes with the territory, when you work with guns and wild animals...


Just some thoughts. Let the arguing begin!!!!

Wow!! I haven't participated in any of these discussions yet....and I'm not ready to say whose side I'm on. But, this perspective really mixed things up....

Oryxhunter,

There is nothing to argue about! The release you generally are asked to sign is that you or your family etc cannot come after the operator if something happens to you during the normal course of a hunt. i.e. if you get stomped by an elephant or get eaten by a lion or fell off a mountain or horse or died of a heart attack. IF your PH shot you whether it was an accident or on purpose there would be an investigation and the law of the the land would be enforced atleast in theory! Trust me there are rules and regulations outside America as well.....

Reddy,

I agree with you, there will obviously, be some sort of legal issues to deal with in country, but that doesn't mean financial obligation.

The release is a financial release...basically saying "you or your family can't sue me if...."

And it's certainly one sided...I've yet to see one releasing me...

Just add the clause, "except by gross negligence on the part of the operator or his representative.."

Shooting a client would fall in that catagory as would recklessly endangering a client by poor driving or other "gross" actions.

Oryxhunter:

Reddy summed it up correctly.

The waiver covers the outfitter from injuries/death that may come a result of a mauling or stomping, driving the vehicle into a hole/tree, bitten by a poisonous insect/snake, etc. which the PH was unable to prevent.

Shooting a fellow human being on safari has never been considered because quite frankly accidents of this nature were unheard of until quite recently.

And yes, when an accident of this nature happens, the law comes into play regardless, whether it happens in Africa, Europe or the USA.

Accidental Discharges don't just happen, especially when there are others in the close vicinity; when a firearm goes off there is a reason and that reason zeroes in on negligence which takes on many forms.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

Shooting a fellow human being on safari has never been considered because quite frankly accidents of this nature were unheard of until quite recently.

Perhaps not heard of so much until the internet became a big thing? BUT I wouldn't say it didn't happen.

Over here, no indemnity will prevent any prosecution, either criminal or civil, in cases of negligence, which at the end of the day, "accidents" usually are.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

Shooting a fellow human being on safari has never been considered because quite frankly accidents of this nature were unheard of until quite recently.

Perhaps not heard of so much until the internet became a big thing? BUT I wouldn't say it didn't happen.

"...were unheard of until quite recently.".. but bad news still traveled, albeit slower, but it still got its destination.

Ozzie:

I've been around quite a while and prior to the internet, sat phones and the likes, news of serious accidents in the field have most always been brought to the light of day.

However, incidents which resulted in fatalities or serious injuries involving PHs, which were/are not uncommon, stemmed from getting hammered by DG and not by a bullet,(blown eardrums, close calls, yes) with the exception of one that I know of, refers to a very well known PH who took a game scout's 458 in the guts and survived to tell the tale. This incident happened while the scout was unloading his weapon in the wrong direction!

By comparison, very few clients have gone home in a box; those that did were victims of unfortunate circumstances, beyond the responsibility of the PH whose expectations in protecting or guaranteeing the safety of the client are not infallible.

I say again, gun related accidents are caused by negligent handling of the weapon which may also be defective but if handled properly that hidden defect will unlikely appear at the wrong moment.

I will give you 2 examples of negligent or irresponsible gun handling incidents that immediately come to mind:

1. One guy, with his hand over the muzzles, on setting his rifle down in upright position, obviously with more force than normal (maybe it slipped) went off, blowing half his hand to hell and gone. He eventually lost his second and middle finger; surgeon had to stitch his hand into his belly to obtain a graft for the missing tissue. Likely cause of discharge attributable to a worn sear, firearm loaded but not on safe + bad habit.

2. Bunch of youngsters diesel (petrol back then) hunting on the plains with 'pedal to metal' after something or another with one chap in the passenger seat holding the rifle 'muzzle up' (loaded of course), vehicle hits a bump, gun goes off and the bullet takes one of the guys standing up in the back of the truck just under the chin. Cause of discharge: Never mind, it seems pretty obvious!

Have I experienced an AD? - No! ... but what I have experienced is a double discharge due to a faulty or worn sear with the weapon pointed in the right direction. Other than a bruised shoulder I was none the worse for wear.

I have not heard of any client being shot by his PH or any other member of the group while on safari. Maybe you know something some of us don't.

These and other similar cases are all ACCIDENTAL discharges and can be avoided if the individual's attitude to the properly handling of the weapon is applied in the first place!

quote:

I have not heard of any client being shot by his PH or any other member of the group while on safari. Maybe you know something some of us don't.

Not Africa but in 2005 a master guide and apprentice were hunting bear with an experienced client. The client wounded a bear in the ensuing action the apprentice shot the client in the head, killing him instantly. It made the paper in Anchorage, I was working there at the time. As I understand, Alaska has the strictest requirements to become a guide in the states.

There have been some other incidents involving PHs. One notable one was a well known PH shooting and killing his tracker several years ago.

I also heard a South African PH was hunting in Gwaii last year and shot and killed a tracker.

And then there was the guy that shot a hole through his own foot this year.

The last thing I am worried about on safari is my PH shooting me.

Mike:

You are absolutely correct!

More hunting accidents are registered in Europe and USA than in Africa - all those lawyers need to be kept busy

As long as one shoots his hand, foot or whatever is fine by anyone's reckoning as long as they don't get plugged.

As far as the tracker getting shot - he might have got in the line of fire on a premeditated shot by the PH or sheer irresponsibility on the part of the PH.

As I understand it the well known PH was using the Africa carry, the trigger snagged on a branch??, gun discharged.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Ozzie:

I have not heard of any client being shot by his PH or any other member of the group while on safari. Maybe you know something some of us don't.

These and other similar cases are all ACCIDENTAL discharges and can be avoided if the individual's attitude to the properly handling of the weapon is applied in the first place!

This naturally stands to reason as the PH is almost always in front BUT one instance of a well known PH having an AD and killing his Tracker is a well known fact and I'm sure there are plenty of AD's from professionals that are not spoken of as like us mere mortals (clients) they are not all impervious to mistakes. Even such a disastrous one.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
As I understand it the well known PH was using the Africa carry, the trigger snagged on a branch??, gun discharged.

Did I ever say or suggest a PH is infallible/perfect or beyond reproach?

".....or sheer irresponsibility on the part of the PH".

In all likelihood, had he been less negligent in his actions and had the gun on 'safe' the accident would not have happened.

There are many ways for anyone involved in a safari to get hurt

All clients are made to sign a liability release prior to safari After practicing medicine in the U.S. for over 30 years, I can assure you these would not stop a negligence suit in this country.

I remember the case of Bob Fontana getting killed by a buffalo in TZ while hunting lesser kudu. Had that occurred in America, Mr. Fontana's widow would have no problem in obtaining a judgment against the PH for negligence. This would probably apply to just about any bad thing happening to a client (just like doctors getting sued for malpractice.)

One thing I can say with confidence--if we see PH's start filing lawsuits against clients, it will have a damning effect on the future of safari hunting.

Most people going on safaris are successful businessmen. One of the great attractions of Africa is in getting away from things that plague us, like lawsuits. If I were to intentionally shoot someone (anywhere), I epect to face the consequences, but when I start having to worry about being sued on safari is the time I find a new game.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
As I understand it the well known PH was using the Africa carry, the trigger snagged on a branch??, gun discharged.

I have for decades employed the "Africa Carry" method and as mentioned several posts preceding, have never had an AD though I do not for one minute exclude that a twig may or may not have brushed against my triggers some time somewhere. The rifle is not glued in that position and will be shifted in negotiating obstacles and other situations as and when.

My rifles are periodically thoroughly checked for efficiency, I do not fart around with the honing of sears or bugger about with trigger pulls, which some individuals think are paramount factors to accuracy; possibly so if you are into competitive shooting but not a necessity in hunting. I would much rather have a slightly heavier but crisply breaking trigger than a light and sensitive one (to each his own).

It is the over sensitive sear that could be your downfall.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
As I understand it the well known PH was using the Africa carry, the trigger snagged on a branch??, gun discharged.

I have for decades employed the "Africa Carry" method and as mentioned several posts preceding, have never had an AD though I do not for one minute exclude that a twig may or may not have brushed against my triggers some time somewhere. The rifle is not glued in that position and will be shifted in negotiating obstacles and other situations as and when.

My rifles are periodically thoroughly checked for efficiency, I do not fart around with the honing of sears or bugger about with trigger pulls, which some individuals think are paramount factors to accuracy; possibly so if you are into competitive shooting but not a necessity in hunting. I would much rather have a slightly heavier but crisply breaking trigger than a light and sensitive one (to each his own).

It is the over sensitive sear that could be your downfall.

Dont you use a safety on your double anyway?? A twig brushing your triggers when carrying loading should have no effect.

Matt:

quote:

Dont you use a safety on your double anyway?? A twig brushing your triggers when carrying loading should have no effect.

I don't trust anything that comes in contact with primed triggers except my finger and the safety is always engaged when loaded and disengaged as the rifle comes up to be fired.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnDL:
There are many ways for anyone involved in a safari to get hurt

All clients are made to sign a liability release prior to safari After practicing medicine in the U.S. for over 30 years, I can assure you these would not stop a negligence suit in this country.

I remember the case of Bob Fontana getting killed by a buffalo in TZ while hunting lesser kudu. Had that occurred in America, Mr. Fontana's widow would have no problem in obtaining a judgment against the PH for negligence. This would probably apply to just about any bad thing happening to a client (just like doctors getting sued for malpractice.)

One thing I can say with confidence--if we see PH's start filing lawsuits against clients, it will have a damning effect on the future of safari hunting.

Most people going on safaris are successful businessmen. One of the great attractions of Africa is in getting away from things that plague us, like lawsuits. If I were to intentionally shoot someone (anywhere), I epect to face the consequences, but when I start having to worry about being sued on safari is the time I find a new game.

John-You're exactly correct. Americans stand no chance of recouping damages from a safari company or PH...enforcing a judgement overseas would be almost impossible, and more than likely more expensive than it's worth.

I'm sure if a ph or company files a suit against a international hunter, my idea of a release for hunters won't seem like such a crazy idea. At the end of the day, this sport has some level of danger, if you decide to play, you've considered the risk!

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Matt:

quote:

Dont you use a safety on your double anyway?? A twig brushing your triggers when carrying loading should have no effect.

I don't trust anything that comes in contact with primed triggers except my finger and the safety is always engaged when loaded and disengaged as the rifle comes up to be fired.

I don't beat myself up about such things - the rifle is pointed in a safe direction, is it not?

Neither do I Matt - I just play safe and done OK so far! - What you do is of no concern to me.

While I have never been involved in a gun related accident, I can understand how they can happen, and can be legitimate ACCIDENTS.

In 1989, I was hunting in Botswana and we came across a nice sitatunga, out in a short grass area away from the tall reeds. He was running back toward cover and everyone ducked down while I swung my rifle with the bull. Finally, the sitatunga stopped and I was trying to get on him, offhand due to the situation. Just as I was about to apply pressure to the trigger, suddenly my scope went black. An apprentice tracker stood up, with his head about 12" in front of the muzzle of my 300 winchester. Just another second or so, and that bullet would have been on its way and his head would have exploded. Fortunately, I took my finger off the trigger, reached the gun out and whacked him hard on the side of the head to knock him away, and by then the sitatunga was gone.

The PH was furious with the fellow, and I was very shook up. We all knew how close we'd come to disaster occuring, due to the lack of experience in this young fellow not realizing what was going on and standing up to get a better look at things. He had no awareness of the gun and placed himself in harms way. Had he stood up one second later it would have likely ended in disaster.

It can happen accidentally.

quote:

Originally posted by DLS:
....... He had no awareness of the gun and placed himself in harms way. Had he stood up one second later it would have likely ended in disaster.

It can happen accidentally.

Thank you DLS - you have confirmed that I don't talk shit all the time!

"As far as the tracker getting shot - he might have got in the line of fire on a premeditated shot by the PH or sheer irresponsibility on the part of the PH".

In your recount it involved you and not the PH and cannot be attributed to negligence on the part of the shooter but a GENUINE accident brought about by the ignorance of a third party.

The PH I hunted with this past summer lost his leg when a cat attacked and the client shot the PH instead of the cat...

I've thought about how that client probably felt, too.

The downside was the cat was already mortally wounded.

quote:

Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
John-You're exactly correct. Americans stand no chance of recouping damages from a safari company or PH...enforcing a judgement overseas would be almost impossible, and more than likely more expensive than it's worth.

I don't understand. If they are sourcing most of their clients and business in the USA, through an agents or agents, or attending safari shows, surely the deposit money can be sought after, in a judgement in the USA against them?

quote:

Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
Not to add any fuel to this whole Stu debate, but one thing not mentioned here by anyone that I've seen thus far is...

What about the release I've signed with every professional hunter/outfitter relieving them of liability if I get hurt during the because of a situation that may occur?

Hunting ph's/outfitters/companies surely don't mind requiring Clients signing away their rights prior to a hunt , seems like a double standard. Just food for thought.
(I say this, with tons of friends who are Ph's, some very close) Should clients start requiring Ph's to sign similar releases? That would be a novel concept.

(I make this point from a legal standpoint, not a moral one. As individuals, we all have different beliefs about moral responsibilities.)

I personally believe we all participate in multiple dangerous activities daily. I personally travel in the car for work most days, all day...and there's surely more accidents on the roads in Texas than while on safaris. However, I get up, and do my job everyday, and take that chance. I imagine it's no different as a PH.

I think the risk of being shot comes with the territory, when you work with guns and wild animals...


Just some thoughts. Let the arguing begin!!!!

I find those complete waiver agreements by outfitters and agents completely disgusting and unprofessional. If possible I do not sign them. If they are paid a deposit, how many will return the deposit because a liability waiver has not been signed? I do not disagree with reasonable liability waiver agreements, but the average seems to be written by a bumpkin country lawyer with no idea, they are so ridiculous. Which is probably good, as they are probably less enforceable the more extreme they are.

I once, only once, booked a safari with a US agent, for a Zimbabwean outfitter. The waiver agreement was so ridiculous it even included a clause that the deposit was not returnable for any reason, seemingly including failure to actually provide the hunt. I argued that one with the outfitter, and they obviously did not even understand their own waiver agreement and got upset it was being questioned. In the end I signed it.

One reason I was insistent was this was the warvet invasion days. And believe it or not, the safar was interrupted by warvets, we were thrown off the property, and had to source a new concession to hunt on. Yes I had to pay a higher price to continue the hunt, but the outfitter was honourable and only charged me for days hunted, and trophies taken on his property. He also managed to get the trophies out for me and send them on.

As for a client side liability waiver agreement, there is no duty of care from the client's side to the outfitter anyway. As for negligence such as shooting someone in accident, it is still negligence, so no waiver will cover it anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Shooting a fellow human being on safari has never been considered because quite frankly accidents of this nature were unheard of until quite recently.

No really. Always been some of these stories around. My first PH had a crease on his scalp where his clients bullet had tried to scalp him. A lion had jumped on in front of them, the client tried to shoot it, except the PH was standing in the track in front of him, and so he shot the PH instead. Luckily only a scar on the top of the head ...

Other stories too.

quote:

Accidental Discharges don't just happen, especially when there are others in the close vicinity; when a firearm goes off there is a reason and that reason zeroes in on negligence which takes on many forms.

Very true. Often accidents are caused by panic. For example some one might get shot when a rifle is dropped, or a person falls over in a dramatic moment such as a charge. I believe it is actually quite common, the client steps back suddenly in panic and trips over a bush, if the persons finger is on the trigger with the safety off, who knows where the uncontrolled muzzle is pointing ...

Come on chaps if we are going to play with bullets and pursue grim beasts then we all put ourselves at risk. It is a dangerous game and one that separates the men from the boys. Is this not why we do it?

I have yet to meet a man/woman who has not put their life at risk in the pursuit of dangerous or wounded game and the agreement to do so has been on a handshake or simply the nod of a head.

You gentlemen have offered financial support and fundraising for those who have fallen due to accident and this is so admirable. If the PH is not insured then these extreme acts of charity will be forever remembered and fostered by family and friends.

DLS:

Your story reminds me of an incident back in 1979. At West Point we spent our third summer in a real Army unit. I spent mine with an armor unit.

One night I was coordinating the live fire tank gunnery course. The first one to go downrange was the battalion commander. This is back before thermal sights, so we used both IR and white light; two tanks were positioned on searchlight duty. It had rained a lot, so range control had altered the standard course a lot. At one point I radioed for tanks 1 and 2 to illuminate target "India" with infrared.

I heard on the radio, "Searchlight 1 up"...then "searchlight 2 up."

I waited for the BN Cmd's tank to fire. It was pitch black, but I expected it to be since we were using IR and it was a very dark night. After a few minutes I radioed "HQ 66, do you have a problem?"

Nothing. I asked again; (my boss for the summer later told me he thought I was really pissing off his boss). Finally he said "wait one."

After another minute he radioed "Come to the back of my tank."

I walked about 50 meters up the road and found him next to his tank.

"I am not firing because you are in my line of fire."

Because we had altered the course, the barrel of his tank was pointing right at my jeep.

Like a good PH, he was aware of things I was not.

I was bowhunting buffalo and we were finished for the day and merely walking back to the truck.Walked up on a bull completely by accident. He charged into my PH knocking his rifle out of his hands. I drew my bow and settled my pin on the buff's shoulder as he and my PH danced around a smallish tree.I was applying pressure on my release when a blue suited tracker ran into my sight picture. A millisecond later he would have been harpooned.

Quite fortunate that no one died that day.

I have never seen where signing a release of liability has ever prevented or lessened the risk of dangerous activities. Safe muzzle control of ones firearm does dramatically reduce the chance of injury. An accidental discharge with a safely directed muzzle is just that,an accidental discharge.It's the hunters responsibility to have sufficient firearm safety training and gun handling skills. It's the PH'S responsibility to take control and see that safe handling skills are being adhered to at all times. Pre hunt and daily reminder safety talks will go a long way in minimizing someone being shot. If a client is showing unsafe gun handling take his ass back to camp and review safe gun handling. It can never be stressed enough.I give a safety talk before every IPSC-USPSA Shooting match at our local club each month stressing keeping the muzzle pointed down range in a safe direction along with the other tenets of gun safety and periodically a shooter will have an accidental discharge as we're moving through the course of fire. Thankfully the bullets have all impacted down range in safe manner. The shooter is typically shook up by the incident but I promptly remind them that is why we keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction and commend them on that, then I disqualify them from the match and they bag their gun and are done for the day. They learn from the experience and typically become safer shooters. I don't care who you are or how long you've been shooting accidental discharges can and will occur.Keep preaching and practicing gun safety daily. Who cares if someone is offended. There is always the risk that someone may get hurt especially mixing dangerous game hunting in the picture. Keep safety at the forefront and enjoy the hell out of it.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

quote:

Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
John-You're exactly correct. Americans stand no chance of recouping damages from a safari company or PH...enforcing a judgement overseas would be almost impossible, and more than likely more expensive than it's worth.

I don't understand. If they are sourcing most of their clients and business in the USA, through an agents or agents, or attending safari shows, surely the deposit money can be sought after, in a judgement in the USA against them?

Hey John,
I usually don't deal with agents, I have booked all of my hunts directly with the outfitter. If I get a judgement, it's just a piece of paper, even if they show up in Jan, what's it going to do? They won't be arrested when they step off the plane.

In my experience this door swings both ways. This year my PH got so into the hunt I felt at times he forgot I was there. When crossing some tricky areas usually with wet logs etc I would have to call him back to pass off my gun. This ,in fact seemed to annoy him, it wasn't my ass the bullet would have gone up.

Guys, Sh#t happens. He could have had a "Cold Steel" spear in his hands and the results would not have been good either.

quote:

going to play with bullets and pursue grim beasts then we all put ourselves at risk.

+1

Leading or following....

quote:

I find those complete waiver agreements by outfitters and agents completely disgusting and unprofessional

Absolutely right too mate!

Absolutely correct, assuming you are dealing with honourable men and not their heirs and their lawyers. I firmly believe that we all should be held accountable for our actions -- and in the end we will be.

However, as a lawyer, I typically recommend such disclaimers, although their enforceablity is subject to limitations in most jurisdictions.

I see so many claims that "you should have protected me from myself and my own stupidity" or "I had no idea that [whatever] might have resulted in an injury" that such disclaimers are a necessary evil in this litigious society.

Haven't seen many such claims in the hunting arena (but I've seen a few).

The cost of defending even a frivolous case, in the States at least, makes such disclaimers necessary. The English rule with respect to attorneys fees would change that.

quote:

I find those complete waiver agreements by outfitters and agents completely disgusting and unprofessional

Agreed - in the heydays however, no such waiver existed. One wonders why.

They did'nt because PH's like Eric Rundgren would have slapped the snot out of you(client) if you did something stupid or irresponsible on his safari