I am saving for my first Africa trip. Yes, I have caught the bug something fierce....Anyway, I have a .458 W/M, CZ 550 Safari Mag. I really like the gun and the caliber.
I then found this forum in October, joined and quickly noticed how no one seems to give the .458 Winchester Magnum any respect.
I am not an expert but I know some basic facts.

1. While not the most powerful cartridge it isn't slack by any means.

2. I have found that accuracy is very good-particularly for a DG cartridge.

3. Reloading components are easy to find and reasonably priced-there are even good factory loads available.

Is it that it is too plain. It just doesn't sound exotic like maybe; .458 Lott, .577 T/Rex or (God help us) .700 Nitro.

Or, is there someone out there that can give me some information that proves that this caliber is deficient in some manner.

When the .458 Win Mag first came to Africa it's ammo suffered from the high temperatures and consequently sometimes failed to produce the performance it should have been capable of. I won't go into it very deeply as I'm sure that someone more qualified will be able to tell you more of the science behind it than I can.

However, modern powders have really cured most of this and it's now an excellent calibre for Africa, but the 458 Lott is better, so that's why many people opt for the Lott conversion.

MCW,

Take a look at this thread from last year, then go hunting with your .458 Win.

jim dodd

http://www.nookhill.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005224

[ 11-26-2003, 02:26: Message edited by: HunterJim ]

You've got some good loads with some good bullets?
Don't give it another thought. Use it a while and evaluate, for yourself, the need for extra power and recoil. You can always convert to the Lott.

Its marginal at best because it cant push the bullet fast enough. I have two of them, wouldnt think of hunting with them. But I love shooting one of them. The other is a pre 64 in about 98% condition that I dont shoot.

.44, if you choose to ignore the opinions of the armchair "experts" and follow the advice of the people who actually use these rifes, you may consider the poll of active PH's in Africa that Boddington used in his book Safari Rifles, in which when asked their personal prefenence of caliber for use on thick skinned dangerous game, the top choice, by a wide margin, was the 458 Win Mag. Nuff said. Happy hunting!

Hey .44,

A lot of the noise is from arm chair experts, the rest is from gun dealers who want to sell something else. Use your common sense and discount self appointed experts.

Unless you see photos proving it, you can figure most have never been to Africa, and their opinions are irrevelent. They are just repeating something that they read somewhere and have no personal experience.

Here is what Zimbabwe PH Charlie Haley has to say:

http://www.african-hunter.com/Whats%20Wrong.htm

Alan

took a nice buffalo and an elephant cow with mine. The 458 win worked just fine talked with 3 PHs in zim who used a 458 win.
Dean

.44 Don't worry about your 458 Win Mag rifle. It will do you well in Africa, with proper loads! Since you have made mention of availability of reasonably priced componants, I assume you are a handloader. If this is the case then you will be better off to use handloads rather than any of the factory loads. In the first place the 458 Win Mag doesn't have enough powder capacity to handle 500 gr bullets effeciently. You are better off with a 450, to 480 gr bullet, loaded with a powder that works in the case so it doesn't have to be "CRUSHED" by the bullet being seated. There is a picture someplace on this sight that shows 458 WM bullets recovered with half of the powder charge still attached, as a solid mass, to the base of the bullet, unburned! This is the reason the PHs of Africa did not become fans of this cartridge. This is understandable when a round was fired in anger and only half the charge burned!

The 480 gr soft, and solids for the 450NE 3.25", from Woodliegh, works very well in the 458 win mag, and is designed to work at the ACTUAL velocities rather than the advertized velocities of the factory ammo! If you can get an honest 2150 fps with a 450 to 480gr bullet, you will have no problem taking any of the big five with the 458 Win Mag!

There is no question the 458 LOTT is what the 458 Win Mag should have been to start with,because the 500 gr bullet can be easily pushed to the magic 2150 fps for the .458 dia, without the high pressures needed to do less with the 458 Win Mag, but that is something that didn't happen. Properly loaded, with proper bullets, and powder, the 458 Win Mag is alright, and will do a good job for you!
Good luck on your hunt,

The 458 was a poorly designed cartridge from the beginning, it is too short, it does not have the case capacity to handle 500 gr. bullets without undue pressure..The new enhanced ammo is now giving pressure problems..

Sure you can handload it and its OK, but still a little compaction is present..Where there is that much smoke there is certainly some fire...

I just bought a 458 Whitworth Mauser, but I will no doubt make it a Lott or Watts, but more likely the new African 3" version out of So. Africa, thats what the 458 should have been from the start...

JoeR,
You ought to hang around here and test the waters before refering to arm chair experts, there are a bunch of folks on this forum that have shot as many buffalo as many PHs have. Another thing you should understand is the 458 Win became popular because at the time it was the only whore in town and one heck of a lot of PH have or are having them punched out to Lotts..The Lott is quite popular in Africa.

Today if I was going to recommend a factory available big bore for a client, I would never recommend the 458 Win. instead I would suggest a 416 Remington or Rigby caliber and if the client didn't think that was enough gun then the new Ruger in 458 Lott should suit him...

The Lott seems to be catching on, and I suspect it will continue to become available in many more factory rifles now that Ruger has once again tested the water, CZ will surly follow and Winchester will do one on order and I am betting it will soon be a standard item.......

And don't put words in my mouth, I know a 458 Win will kill buffalo, I have killed them with it, and I may even use it again..but it is and always will be a poorly designed round IMO....

Thanks Ray, I too am a fan of the 416 Rigby and have used it in Africa with some good results. Ed Matunas, who has several dozen African hunts behind him and has written several books on the subject of African rifles, favors the 416 Rigby, though he states that given the situation to stop a charge from a buff or elephant, he would prefer the 458 WM to the 416. To each his own, but too many people favor the 458 for it to be nearly as bad as some would make it out to be. I can also attest to the fact that the 416 Rigby, using 410 gr. Woodleigh softs, is far from the death ray some would have you believe as I personally found out against a lion in Zimbabwe.

I may have it wrong, but, if memory serves, it was Ed Matunas who concocted the "Maximum Game Weight" ratings theme, as a guideline for shooters in the selection of cartridges for use on specific species. As such, Ed would surely have rated the .458 Winchester a knotch higher than a lesser caliber.

Today's 450 grain monolithics can be driven well in excess of 2,200 fps, with a number of powders, while still providing excellent SD numbers. IMO, that's the best way to go with the 2.5" casing, resulting in reliable performance on heavy game.
AA-2230 is one such powder.

I quite like my new 458 Win, for me it's about the limit of recoil for actually getting out and practicing with it. We shot last week with Jeffeoso and some of his buddies and my 458 was about a medium bore with that crowd. I'm sure it's the wrong rifle in a lot of peoples eyes, 25" Douglas #5 contour barrel, 2-7 Leupold shotgun scope with Warne detachable rings, Dalota standing leaf rear and ramp front with bead, laminated Boyds JRS stock, extra recoil lug on barrel, built on a Charles Daly mauser action. The proofs in the pudding as they say:

Well now I can't get the links to work, but they are in another post at
http://www.nookhill.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=004257

[ 11-26-2003, 06:27: Message edited by: browningguy ]

I'm not a armchair guy my any strech. I bet I have hunted more in the past couple years than most have. I will stand by my previous post. It is also the opninon of my PH and his dad as well.

I have alot of 458 "shooting" experience but not much 458 "hunting" experience. I have -NO- 1st hand african experience, but have refurb dozens of Zimb. parker hale 458s.
I like the 458 alot, especially with the oft mentioned 400 to 450gr loads. The swift and barnes are your first choices. A 500gr Hornady is tough to beat as well but a little more velocity would be nice. I have not seen any difference in the 2000fps or the asked for 2150fps.
The often stated subject of Boddingtons survey about the 458 being the most popular is solely based on available guns and ammo, no other reason. It is not the best , it is the best thing available. It -SEEMS- to whackem' harder than a 416 or a 375 and the 460 doesn't seem to whackem' any harder. Again this is 2nd hand info. I intergated everyone I can on all things ballistic and this is just a greenhorns compelation of statistics.
All this said, the CZ makes a great 458 Lott for a cheap rechamber job and then there is nothing left to debate. The brass is the same price, you can get 2100fps with low pressure and the Lott case fills the CZ magazine better. The 458 win will slop around in the mag, and -COULD- cause some feeding trouble.

ED

The original factory ammo used a too soft soft point. The original M70 was too light for the caliber and the stocks split. Both problems as well as the other ones mentioned have now been largely corrected.

Amoung other things, it's sylish to badmouth the .458 Win. Mag. these days. I've even heard it denounced by individuals who've never so much as owned a rifle in .458 Win. Mag.; have never fired a sample of same; and have certainly never hunted with it for so much as a western ground squirrel. But they know the full story on it anyway - evidently with all the interpretive capability of a ventriloquist's dummy.....

AD

As always,er-most of the time, on this forum I am getting some great information and opinions from some good sources. I will review and evaluate all of them.

This is not the first time I have experienced such varied opinions on a cartridge. As my call sign indicates I have a love for the .44 mag, specifically the 1894 marlin. When I first was given this rifle, by my brother, in early high school all my school buddies exclaimed in unison "too much gun for deer". Can you believe that? Actually they had "too much TV" namely "Dirty Harry". They couldn't believe that a .44 was far less powerful than a 30-06 or most any other centerfire deer rifle.
Then through the years the opinions shifted. What was too much has become too little.
I haven't hunted deer with anyone in ten years that uses any thing less than a .270 with the majority being 30-06 or bigger. Only one of my nephews uses a 30-30 and it was because I talked him into it (he has always been happy with it)
Anyway, I have busted many, many deer with this weapon ,from all angles, in all types of weather, from 2yrds to 175yrds, I have had two or three come up on me and all go down, i've hit them walking, running and sitting. I have missed a running deer cleanly but I have never, NEVER hit a deer that I didn't recover. The farthest I had one go was 45 yards- through light brush, most drop within 20 yards. Yet I have stood next to my brother and watched him hit a deer center chest with a 7mm mag, split him from stem to stern and then have him run about 100 yards. The bullet was found under the skin of it's butt.
I guess this is the case here as well.
A .458 Lott or better will do more damage but Until convinced otherwise I think my .458wm is "Enough gun" with which I will shoot often, well and until they are dead.

PS- yes, I want/will get a double rifle in .500 or better ....only a fool wouldn't want one.

Have a great Thanksgiving everyone.

I never could understand why a 458WM is looked down on but mention a 470NE and everyones eyes open, both push a 500 grain bullet at 2150 fps, even if the 458 was 50 fps lower what difference would that make, don't say the 470 is larger diameter because that argument now brings in the 416...wow 400 grain at 2400, a 458 WM would do the same ...but with a larger diameter projectile...the 470 argument all over again.

I understand where this all started will the inferior powders that were around but that is no longer the problem. My 458 with 500 grain using published loads with IMR always shoots over the 2150 FPS, not much but in the 2175 FPS range, and the recoil is very tolerable.

Rifles and cartridges are personal choices but the 458WM as is the case with other DG cartridges has sufficent DG kills to earn its place with any of the other great cartridges, seems to me it boils down to shot placement and bullet construction more so than FPS.

I have always said that rifle companies start this non sense, a well made firearm that is well maintained will last several lifetimes, that being said how do firearms companies stay in business...easy create demand... make the old cartridge appear undesirable and create the new ones, look what has happened in the last several years...the RUMS, WSM all the wildcats and than the new calibers 17, 201 454 and so on,I would not want to be in the sports store business think about the inventory nightmare????
IMHO obviously!

The .458 Win. Mag. is "dissed" because it is a compromise(d) cartridge and a better one is available: the .458 Lott. The Lott can now be had from the factories or, in the old fashioned way, by rechambering the Win.

It is generally acknowledged that Winchester screwed up going with a 2.5" case, which requires a compressed powder charge and high pressure.

When they realized they had problems and backed off on the powder charge and the pressure, the velocity of factory loads dropped drastically. New powders and lighter bullets have somewhat improved the cartridge's performance nowadays, but why bother with it when you can have a Lott?

With the 2.8" Lott chamber (actually, mine's 2.87"), you get more velocity with 500 grainers, no need to compress the powder charge and lower pressure. Pretty easy choice for me.

Yes, now the choice is indeed easy with readily-available factory rifles and ammunition in .458 Lott, but for many years only the .458 Win. Mag. was available if you wanted something bigger than .375 H&H in a widely-available and shootable factory rifle, chambered for a widely-available factory cartridge. In my opinion, the .460 Wby. doesn't count in this case.....

And you about heard about very few actual failures from the .458 Winchester, either. The disappointments, tossings, and related horror stories stole the headlines, but the vast number of real-world .458 Win. Mag. users didn't have much to complain about. I've taken several African critters, including hippo and cape buffalo (with excellent results) using the .458 Win., and I know several guys who've taken scores and scores of big, tough animals with this cartridge (including Jim Carmichel of Outdoor Life), and with no accompanying Capstick-type horror stories, either.

When I hunted with John Sharp just a couple of years ago, he carried a Model 70 in .458 Win. Mag. every day of our safari for backup, and it wasn't for want of something better. John also has a superb and lovely 1923-built Rigby .470 NE in his battery as well, amoung other rifles. The point being, a man with Sharp's experience simply isn't going to carry a rifle that isn't up to par, and if he thought the .458 Win. Mag., as a cartridge, couldn't get the job done, he wouldn't use it.

AD

25" barrel?
Wonder if this kind of solves your alleged velocity problem out of the CZ?

Can, or does, the 458 take advantage of barrel length to develop adequate velocity?

Wonder if the problem could be 458's came with 22 inch barrels, when it needed a longer barrel to develop adequate velocity?

gs

Sure, a bunch of PH's carry .458WMs but that is hardly a ringing endorsement if one considers their motivation is simply that ammo is readily available and less costly than any alternatives. Not to overstate my point but, as we all know (since the fact is beaten to death on this and other forums), Bell shot plenty of big stuff with his 6.5x54MS and 7mm Mauser for the exact same reason. Is this then something to emulate? Certainly not as skill and experience can obviously make up for quite a bit of firepower.
Granted, powder technology has improved since its introduction and there are not likely to be as many pressure issues or squib loads as there once were with the .458WM. Further, as Nickudu states, bullet technology has opened up a whole new set of possibilities for the .458WM but, as is often said, first impressions are lasting ones, particulary where ammunition and dangerous game are concerned.
With so many better rounds out there that are readily available (and chambered in relatively inexpensive rifles), why a client not facing the relative rarity of say .470 Capstick, .458 Lott or.416 Rigby/Rem ammunition (as PH's do) would bother with the .458WM is beyond me.
Simply, I would bore that CZ out to a Lott.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

I have a 458 Win built on a mauser 98 and a barrel from Lothar Wahlter. The barrel lenght is 25.5" and the weight of that rifle is 9 pounds. I also have a 458 Lott built on a Sako with the same barrel lenght, but it�s weight is 11 pounds.

I really like both and I get much more than 2100 f/s with a 500 grains Hornady soft point or solid bullet out of my 458 Win.

Here is reloading data from Accurate Powder that I use. I also use Vihtavouri 540 powder.

Hornady 500 grains bullets.
72 grains Accurate 2230. 2159 f/s. 45.600 C.U.P
74 grains Accurate 2460. 2192 f/s. 44.800 C.U.P

I get 2160 f/s with 73 grains of Accurate 2460, and it�s enough for me in this rifle. No signs of pressure at all. There is no compression at all, the powder only touch the bullet.

The Accurate 2520 works well too in this rifle.

Kalle

[ 11-26-2003, 22:51: Message edited by: Karl-Erik ]

This dance will never be over, its been going on since the 458 was birthed...opinnions are like a$$holes everybody has one...Ever wonder why this caliber has raised so much conversation?

I say it earned its bad reputation and it is haveing to live with it, it is a poorly designed cartridge, how anyone can deny that is beyond me, it would have been so easy to have copied Ackley or Watts and several others..

To compare the 458 to the 470 is simply a lack of thought on anybodys part...Cross section of bullet is very important in shooting buffalo and elephant..The 470 easily gets 2150 and at around 40,000 PSI, the 458 does it with "compaction" and high pressure in the 65000 PSI or somewhere around that...

The problem has nothing to do with the capability to kill an animal, the 458 will do that, the problem is not that, why some can't come to terms with that I do not know...The problem is in order to drive a 500 gr. bullet at the needed 2000 and 2150 is better, you have to compact powder and deal with high pressure, this has in the past and will continue to lock up guns and cause ignition problems...The new enhanced 458 loads are now once again causeing that age old problem in Africa according to Man Magnum...

I do however agree with Nickudu, a 450 BarnesX should solve the problem, but a 500 gr. Barnes
x will not work in a .458 and I have not had any luck with it in the 458 Lott., its too long a bullet to get enough powder in to utililize the case unless its a full 3 inches...

Bottom line is use whatever you wish, I will do the same. If I use the 458 Win and I might if I take a notion to I will load it at low pressure and try to get 2000 FPS or use the 450 gr. bullet, that seems to be the only logical suggestion for it....

"I do however agree with Nickudu, a 450 BarnesX should solve the problem, but a 500 gr. Barnes x will not work in a .458 and I have not had any luck with it in the 458 Lott., its too long a bullet to get enough powder in to utililize the case unless its a full 3 inches..."

Ray,my friend ..
I've been trying to slip this little tidbit to you for while now. With the appearance of the monolithics, IMR-4320 is no longer the best powder, across-the-board. The mono's require powders delivering more energy, per volume or a faster burnrate. The powders Karl-Erik mentions above are often pretty good, as is RL-7.... and especially so, with coated bullets in straight walled cases of dubious neck tension.

[ 11-27-2003, 01:41: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

Nicku,
A pox upon you! no powder is as good as IMR-4320 in the 458 Lott, how dare you to differ! end of story!!

Perhaps in the 458 Win, I'll give you that.

Ray, all of this depends upon the individual gun in question. Some .458 Win. Mag. rifles will digest factory or handloaded ammo at 2100 fps. w/500 gr. bullets or thereabouts without a high pressure sign under all weather conditions, even with a 22" barrel. I own such a rifle.

Some .458s won't even come close to that preformance level and then go on to exacerbate things further by demonstrating high pressure signs with anything above and beyond 1900 fps. loads. It's a roll of the dice....

Not all .470 NE rifles or ammo delivers the goods as advertised, either. No one dares to discuss this reality, with the .470 NE being an 'Olde English' cartridge/'Sacred Cow'-type-icon and all, but it's as true, as only a chronograph can demostrate it to be - not 1920s-era ballistic tables.

Here's another ugly truth: Not all guys can shoot something like a .458 Lott well (or even close to well) and would do better with a .458 Win., .416 Remington, or .375 H&H.....

Bigger ain't always better, but wishful thinking will always be just that........

AD

458 lott+ rl7 powder+500gr barnes super solids+no powder compression = 2300fps Honest I still have the some loads I can run through the chrony. They matched the hornady factory loads.
Dean

Ray, Let me try one more time?

You, me and others have been able to top 2,300 fps with 500 grain bullets in the Lott by stuffing anywhere from 83-88 grains of IMR-4320 in it. Then you complain you can't stuff enough 4320 in to drive the longer monolithics as fast. How can you expect to achieve like velocities with the same weight bullet with less of the same powder??

I've gotten as much as 2,500 fps in the Lott with 78 grains of RL-7 and the 450 grain Barnes. Average was 2,460. I've bested 2,300 with the 500 grain Barnes with 72 grains of the same powder and stopped, below max. You said it yourself, you can't get enough IMR-4320 under the 500 monolithic to get there. End of my story.

[ 11-27-2003, 01:34: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

Socrates, we didn't get to chrono the 25" barrel so don't know if the velocity is substantially better or not. It is accurate though and the recoil is tamed very well. I'm not a big bore shooter, my next biggest gun I actually shoot a lot is a 338 Win. The longer barrel seems to make this pretty pleasant to shoot.

I agree with Allen about the recoil issue and it is a common misconception that the 458 WM has more kick than say a 416 Rigby. Recoil calculation formulae actually show that, in identical weight rifles, the 416 with a 400 gr. bullet has significantly more recoil than the 458 shooting a 500 gr. round. After several hundred rounds through both, my shoulder agrees with this and furthers my opinion that the 458 WM, with the proper ammo, is a fine African caliber.

Ray
you are for sure one of my favoriter posters. Top ten at least maybe top 5. I hope I can age to be 1/2 as "crusty" as yourself
If this happens can you let me in on a secret how to you hand crank over your model T in january with that 20w50 oil in it.
Dean

Well I guess I should add my 2 cents to the 458 debate. I have owned 2 of them, the first in 1977. I have researched the issue quite a bit.
First I agree with almost all of what is posted above.
The 458 should have been on the full length case.
There WERE problems with powder compression.
Another thing that added to the detraction to the 458 in its early days is that many hunters were going to Africa that had the money to go, but did not have the big gun/heavy recoil experience to shoot the 458 accurately, thus no one would come home and say they shot at a buff x number of times and missed or hit him in the guts. "I was hitting him good.... but he would not go down, was the story reported at home.
Many poeple [read "MAHOHBOH' by Ron Thompson, read Jim Carmichael, and even Finn Aggard] who could shoot, and had good ammo did not have any problems with the 458. [As a side note, the first reports from Viet Nam on the results of the AR-15 USED BY "LOCALS" WAS FANTASTIC. When US GI's stated using it they could not stop/kill any body. They did not want to admit that they could not hit anybody, thus you had reports of a 20 round mag failing to knock down the enemy, thus no dead. Which did not read good so later the reports that "they dragged off their dead, no bodies found.]
The first soft points from Winchester were VERY soft on purpose, the thought was to use the 510 soft points on LION and only use solids on the big stuff ie. buff rino elephant and hippo.
The 25" bbls were to get the velocity Winchester desired.
My own thoughts about the current Factory 458 is that with proper ammo it is, good,adequate, ok [you get the idea].
I will say I think the design is one of the greatest corporate firearms blunders of modern times. If Winchester had listened to James Watts, studed the early high pressure problems of Cordite, and made the 458 on the full length 375 case it would still be the greatest American Safari cartridge. Why they did not is beyond me, they had 300 H&H and 375 H&H mod 70's and made 375 brass. What was there major malfunction?
So a lot of things added up to give the 458 a "bad name."
With good ammo and good shooting it will do the job. It could have been so much better.

Let me add this.
A couple of months ago I was at the range checking the zero on my 9,3 before my Idaho trip.
Tjere was a fella there shooting his Rem 458 Lott and his 458 Win Mag Heym Double rifle, with scope. He was shooting X bullets, thus he was breaking ALL the rules, ie. rimless high pressure double, mono bullets, and a scope!
He has been to Africa several times [saw the pictures] and has several other doubles including British and Krieghoff. He said the 458 Heym was his favorite. He liked the fact that ammo was widely available in case his was lost in transit.
[same for the 458 Lott]. He stated he had never had any toruble with the 458 Heym. His targets looked real good.
I handled the Heym and it felt pretty good, the position of the scope was perfect.

I keep saying a scoped double rifle just might be the HOLY GRAIL...... But nobody listens.

Who was that fella that said the Earth was round, and that that the Earth revolved around that big bright thing? Everybody thought he was crazy too.

How about Impala, super hard, 300 grain solids, in a 458 win mag?
Lott velocity+, 500 grain bullet length, and higher velocities then conventional bullets can get, with super energy transfer, and a very big hole?

Impala bullets, and the 458 win mag are made for each other.

gs

WOW!!...you guys are into this!

I agree that the 458 is controversial, and that it has had some performance problems IN THE PAST. Here are the NEW things that fix the problem:

1. AA 2230 loads.

2. 400 and 450 gr bullets designed for 458 velocities

3. Speer 500 AGS solids.

#1 will easily drive #2 2450 and 2300 fps in a 22 inch bbl...I have done this.

#1 will drive #3 2250 fps at safe pressures because it is very short due to the tungsten core (Speer Manual #13, p. 422) and my ballistics lab.

SO, one has "lion loads" and a buff stopper if you handload. Chrono all the factory stuff and if it is not up to par, handload.

Allen,

It is true the Lott is an abusive beast excpet when hunting.

The 458 WM really sucks, though I have never used one hunting.

The real problem was John Olin never making a longer version of the Model 70 action.

Nickudu,

Hey, get off my case. I'm using IMR4320 in the Lott and haven't had any problems but then again it is with the 500 gr. AGS's and Hornady's.

If you have RL-7, or anuthing else, loads that I would not have to compress as much as IMR4320, please share, if not a business proprietary thing.

Will,
I would guess your bullet is .300", or more, shorter than is the Barnes 500. Thus, a suitable powder capacity for 4320. My first handloads for the Lott were with 4320 and the old Hornady solids. With the ZZK's 25.5" barrel, I surpassed 2,300 fps, handily. Couldn't get close with the Barnes, so I started trying other powders ... just about All of them. I have load data if you want it.

[ 11-27-2003, 18:57: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

Will, I think a lot of cartridges that I've never owned or used - big-bores included - suck!

I might talk from a defiant position, but I'll likely end up with Lott myself before it's all over..........

AD