Am looking at making a deposit for a 2009 ele hunt in Zim! Is that a good idea given the way Zim is today and the future looking bleaker!

NO!!!!!!! It is NOT a good idea.

There are are other places to hunt.

i really don't think i'd book zim further than about 6-8 months in advance

reddy375

It is safe if the money is held Stateside until just before the hunt but if it goes directly to Zim who knows what might happen to anyboby's assets there.

Mark

I am paying an agent Stateside!

Only book it if you can afford to lose your deposit money. Just like any kind of gambling....pays your money and takes your chances.

For 2009, this far in advance, IMO good-will deposit only to reserve the dates and/or PH, and all banking in the States (as said) until the hunt. If you are "making payments", make them to a savings account separate from your other funds, but for an ele in Zim there should be no need for anything sizable this far out.

But DO make plans to go, and adjust if/as required. ~4 years ago people on the forum were saying Zim was doomed yet thousands of guys have had good hunts there since. Nobody knows...same can be said for SA and elsewhere too.

What area, and with who?

I would be careful with this one. If you need to place a deposit this far in advance I will assume the operator is one of the "popular" PH's...otherwise there would be no need to book this far in advance. What are you able to lock in with the deposit? What happens if the cost of JUMBO double next year and you can no longer afford the hunt...will you get your money back? Lots to consider...I would keep the money in my pocket. There are lots of JUMBO hunts in Zim and you always find good deals at the end of the season. If you can be flexible those hunts can save you alot of money.

I have done this twice since the problems started in Zim. I booked both times with Bill Williamson, an agent who's reputation is without repute.

Basically a small deposit of say a grand was put down on booking. This was 18-24 months out. Bill kept that in escrow until about six months out, when 50% was due. Then a month or so before the hunt the balance was due. I also gave him money for expected trophy fees and tips. He keeps ALL this money state-side until after the hunt. We then go through the monies due and I either cut him a check for the balance or he cuts me a check for the overage.

He then transfer the money into the operators accoutn with instructions for tips, etc..

Keeps me from hauling tons of travellers checks or cash as well.

I think that in Zim (and probably anywhere where the poltical situation is fluid), this is the best way to do it.

It all takes booking with someone you trust, as you should be any way.

Take Care,

-Steve

I would be more than very careful with this one. Having spent over 25 years in the financial services sector, I have seen a lot of bad things happen to good people.

This far out, the first question I would have is whether the deposit is required now. It just seems odd.

There are a lot of moving parts here, and it is impossible to cover all of the downsides to it. The best advice has already been given - only consider this if you can afford to lose the deposit money and would not care if you lost it.

In many situations, placing a deposit now only gets you a reserved spot - at whatever price is applicable in the future. Are you certain that your deposit locks in the price of the hunt, including all trophy fees? I would doubt it. Given the inflation rate in the triple or quadruple digits in Zim, I don't see how an outfitter there can guarantee those prices. They certainly cannot predict what the trophy fees will be 2 years out.

There is a lot of banter about adopting a scale for trophy fees based on trophy size and not on the animal.

And everyone might feel safe with setting prices today based on the strength of the US dollar, but 2009 will follow the next presidential election. The dollar may not be worth what it is today. And in the off chance Zim's economy improves, a dollar will buy less there than it does at present.

It is good that a deposit will be held in the US, but in whose name and for how long? Does the outfitter maintain separate accounts for each client or dump all deposits into a general pool? Are the deposits held in escrow or trust or are they mingled with the outfit's general operating funds?

Another thing to be aware of is that all might be well in Zim, but if the outfitter and his business get into financial difficulty, you are likely going to be left with nothing. You will be just another unsecured creditor scrambling for what little assets remain after the secured creditors get their money.

And the same goes for the operation in Zim. If that operation goes belly up, either financially or due to falling victim to dangerous game, disease or crime, what happens to your money? If still in the US, are you entitled to a full refund or does the outfitter have the ability to substitute another PH or another country?

What happens of the government of Zim decides that they want to get into the PH business, just like they did with farming? Zim could "nationalize" businesses there, which would raise some interesting issues. Presumably, the current agreements would outfitters may continue to be enforceable if they do it consistent with exixting treaties and international law.

On this side of the Atlantic, there is always the possibility that the US could expand its sanctions against Zim to preclude any travel there at all. Or limit travel but bar importing any trophies into the US.

Or even action by the Centers for Disease Control.

And the list maintained by the State Department of who you can and cannot do business with is a moving target. Your safari operation in Zim could be blacklisted in a heartbeat.

Right now, the Zim government is on a witch hunt of sorts looking for "corrupt" operators. They will define what "corrupt" is. Kind of ironic having Zim on an anti corruption crusade. Actions of this type in the third world tend to sweep a lot of innocent people up in its snare.

It is true that talk of the end of life as we know it in Zim has been going on for the last 5 years or so. And this past year some members here had some fantastic hunts. But, things are getting worse, not better. And it cannot continue without a drastic change or total collapse, be that 6 months, 2 years or 5 years out.

I read an article in the last couple of days which to me indicates the fall will be sooner rather than later. I think it was posted here -about a mother having to feed her children rats just to put something in their stomachs. The response from a government official in Zim to the press was that rat was a delicacy there, implying that the woman was living the good life.

Those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. That same attitude existed in France in the late 1700's, when Marie Antionette said, when faced with questions about people starving, "Let them eat cake". It was not long after that statement that the people revolted.

So we have a 21st century version - "Let them eat rat".

I think I'd pass on making a deposit just now. It is going to be real interesting to see how this year's harvest comes out in Zim. By all reports now, it looks like another record year - a record low.

A little off topic here, but the PH's continuing to do business in Zim are made of stronger stuff than almost anyone I know. My hat's off to you gentlemen. Good luck and godspeed. Let us know how we can help.

Steve, gave you great advice. I would sell the operator on the premise that he would also benefit from having the deposit stateside in this climate. Then as has been stated you have more options 6-8 months out. Easy problem to solve. If the operator pushes for the deposit this far out, so am I. Out. gduffey

Guys,
Reddy's already said he's using a Stateside agent. I can't see where his money is in jeopardy. If something happens, his agent either refunds his money or books him elsewhere. If nothing goes wrong, he's booked at the time he wants and has a lot of time to practice and anticipate what is likely to be a fantastic hunt.

Good luck, Reddy, hope it comes to together for you.

quote:

Originally posted by DPhillips:
Reddy's already said he's using a Stateside agent. I can't see where his money is in jeopardy. If something happens, his agent either refunds his money or books him elsewhere. If nothing goes wrong, he's booked at the time he wants and has a lot of time to practice and anticipate what is likely to be a fantastic hunt.

Careful. Years ago, ten at least, I had the displeasure of taking on a then "reputable" stateside agent who kept the deposits. Outfitters I will not name, from Alaska to Mexico, to Africa, were out a great deal of money. There was court ordered restitution but I doubt it has ever been paid. If I were to make a deposit, I would want some assurance it is in a safe place until the time comes to draw on it, along with confirmation from the outfitter that he has received it. I have great sympathy for the guys in Zim. but putting money down this far in advance would not be for me.

If you want my personal opinion it is way tooooooooooooooooo farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr in advance .... BUT essentially it will depend upon your (legal contract) which you have with the booking agent or other ..

If you are talking some (samll basic) expression of interest type (holding fee) of say $500, then that would be the way to go. Then 6 months or so before the planned hunt date send the full deposit.

A lot also depends on the operator/oufitter, are they an established outfit with years of client satisfaction or not.

I ask one question, why send the full depsoit so far in advance if that is what you have to do, as I dont know many operators whom will insist on a full deposit 2.5+ years in advance

Cheers, Peter

I'm heading over with my Outfitter in February. Although he was born and raised in Rhodesia/Zim, he now lives in the US. He has family in Zim and his Outfit is there. I'll give you an up to date report when I return. I see no reason to deposit anything other than a token to reserve a 2009 hunt at this time. Having been a Hunting Consultant and professional Taxidermist for many years, I would only suggest a preliminary "wish list" contract at this time to reserve your dates. Deposit would only be required within the last 12 months prior to your hunt with the final payment due before commencement of your hunt. Some request this to be six months in advance, some upon arrival in camp/HQ. Good hunting, David

My PH in Zim has just written to me that he will know on Dec 28th whether he will be assigned a hunting quota in Zim for 2007, and he is unsure about the result. I do not think that given the present very hazardous economic and political situation in Zim outfitters of PH´s (or politicians for that matter...) in Zim can plan as far as 2009... When a country has such large inflation the long term usually shrinks to a week or even a day...

I personally do not see the necessity of paying a deposit more than 6 months into the hunt. That is my opinion, but then I live myself in an underdeveloped country and know from painful experience that what is not supposed to happen always happens... And please bear in mind that when I am in Africa and experience some weird situation I frequently become delusional into thinking Mexico is a DEVELOPED country after all...

The only 100% safe place for your deposit is in your own bank account. Even in normal times, a hunter in Africa is always taking all sorts of risks, including financial risk, when booking a hunt, even through a reputable intermediary, so why push the limit?

You will certainly be able to negotiate a good deal for 2009 in 2008 if you keep your money and invest it well...

Antonio

please see my post on news on zim found via african hunting info. no sense in reposting it here. there are some problems over there and i would personally wait and see the outcome before booking and paying a deposit. looks like hunting for 2007 in zim is in for a bumpy ride