I realize that we're all sick and tired of reading articles which paint all hunters with the same stroke and the article below is more of the same but I ask that you read it, digest it and offer serious comment as to what is, or what should be ,our role in this, as indivduals or as members of various hunting organiztions.
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News:
SUNDAY EXPRESS - 26/01/2003, PAUL McMULLAN

Lions Bred for the Rich to Shoot

PAUL McMULLAN reports from Johannesburg on the grim trade in big cats which last year alone saw 1,500 blasted to death for the benefit of wealthy
hunters THESE BEAUTIFUL lion cubs, auctioned off yesterday, have been bred for one purpose only - to be killed by a huntsman's rifle. Once their manes have grown they will be released into a field and so-called hunters from Britain, Europe and America will pump up to 20 bullets into their bellies to bring them down. They take a long time to die because the riflemen who pay about �20,000 would never risk a head-shot that might spoil the trophy they hope to hang on their living room walls. The Sunday Express can today lift the lid on a barbaric lion-breeding programme that last year saw 1,500 of the majestic animals blasted to death.

Our investigation took us to a tiny mud hut in the midst of the southern African savannah 150 miles from Johannesburg. This is where we discovered the lion cub triplets. At just 25 days old, playfully tumbling over each other in the bottom of a child's carrycot, their fate was already sealed. In just three years when they present a big enough target they become cannon
fodder. A Sotho tribeswoman, who gave her name as Letti, showed us how she fed them with baby bottles and a milk substitute for dogs called Puppy-Lait. We asked her where the mother was and she shook her finger and said: "No mother." Later we were told it is common practice to take the cubs from their mother the day they are born so her natural cycle starts again and she can soon breed more. Also, hand-reared lions, while still dangerous, are easier to feed and shoot, making a mockery of this shamefully legal "sport".

Despite Nelson Mandela's huge advances in human rights, South African law still states that you can kill any animal you have bought. White farmers are turning this legal loophole into a multimillionpound industry. Last year "great white hunters" from abroad poured between �20million and �30million into South Africa's economy.

For Afrikaner farmer Piet Slabbert, a baby lion is a much more profitable crop than maize. Last year he came up with a scheme to increase turnover by publicly auctioning lions - but he made it clear just who was welcome and who was not. National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals officer Rick Allen was caught trying to see if the lions were well cared
for. He was beaten about the head with a pipe by two white farmers and landed in hospital. Slabbert, 6ft 4in and 18st, told the NSPCA inspection officers who attended yesterday's auction that he sold his lions to zoos and
only to people with licences. But posing as rich British hunters, our investigators soon discovered the truth. Slabbert showed us a fully-grown lion with a long mane hanging over his proud features. He said if our bid of around �20,000 clinched it at the auction, we would be invited to hunt on his farm in the Limpopo region of the Northern Transvaal. He said: "On my farm we hunt lion from the back of my buckie (four-wheel drive). It is real African bushveld and there are rhino there. "You can't shoot the rhino but if you buy one of my lions, you own it, you can shoot it and it is cheaper than one of these hunting packages." We asked him if the cubs were for sale to be shot and he confirmed they were. He said: "The three cubs are beautiful but the adults are worth more. It would cost you a lot to buy the cubs and raise them until you can hunt them. You are better off buying an adult." He said he would look after the cubs for us until they were big enough to shoot, for �50 a week. SLABBERT'S lions are bred at his other farm, in the Orange Free State. That is where our team drove, passing a sign saying: "Private Do Not Enter" in both Afrikaans and English. The breeding
area is protected by huge steel gates and an electrified fence. There to greet us was Slabbert's right-hand man, Wimpie du Plessis, who was in charge of yesterday's auction of eight black-mane male lions, 21 adult females and 15 cubs. He told our undercover reporter that after lions are sold they are allowed to roam free for the only time in their lives on Slabbert's Limpopo farm - to make them a little wild and make the hunt more fun. South Africans call what Slabbert does "canned hunting". New laws will stop lions being doped to make them easier to shoot but will still allow them to be hunted "six months after being introduced to an area". South Africa's Tourism Ministry is responsible for game parks and hunting. A spokesman for minister
Vali Moosa said they had ordered an inquiry into the breeding of lion cubs solely for hunting. The spokesman said: "In principle we are against this
form of hunting but until our enquiry is completed it is premature to comment." If the breeding of lions for hunting angers you, write to: South Africa Protest, Sunday Express, 245 Blackfriars Rd, London SE1 9UX - and we will pass your protest on to the South African authorities.

Cheers as Pick of the Pride fetches �22,000 at auction AT YESTERDAY'S lion auction a lot billed as the "Pick of the Pride", a nine-year-old black-maned male, was sold to a secret telephone bidder for �22,000. The converted cow shed near Reitz in the heart of the Orange Free State, packed with 250 white farmers, erupted with cheers and applause as the winning bid of 300,000 rand came in. The auctioneer excitedly declared it was a world record price for a "wild lion". The owner of the lion said: "I may have got �22,000 but a
European or American hunter will now pay double that on a hunting package." A hunting package on Piet Slabbert's farm not only guarantees a kill but the animal is skinned and beheaded to be used as a rug or attached to a wooden plaque for hanging on the wall. The gorgeous 26-day-old cubs we discovered being reared by a Sotho tribeswoman were sold for 7,500 rand each - a little over �400. Once they are large enough they, too, will be shot in the belly to save their hides and faces in the name of this barbaric sport. In total
52 lions were sold, including several pregnant lionesses which went for between �2,000 and �3,000. Their price was so low because they have no hunting value, although they may be shot as target practice. The Wildlife Action group said:
"The hunters only want to shoot a large male." A video was passed onto the Sunday Express of two Spanish businessmen who paid �50,000 to kill a lion. On the tape the breeders made a show of tracking it but in reality the lion was not only hand-reared and semi-tame, it was also drugged so it couldn't run away and the day before a dead donkey had been tied to a tree so they knew exactly where it was. All the so-called hunters
had to do was walk up to it. Louise added: "To let a lion die from stomach wounds is not humane. It is not real hunting because the lion had no chance to escape."

If this is true, the people involved are not hunters and should be stopped. Are there laws against this type of activity?
Jeff

Within the spectrum of humans killing animals, for whatever reason, this is not unusual. However, it is not hunting as I know it, and holds no interest for me. This is more like raising cattle for the slaughter, which is an acceptable occupation and endeavor. Somewhere along the line, we "humanize" animals, meaning that to most, the lion is too noble an animal to be treated in this manner, while the steer is a dumb beast suitable only for the slaughter house. The activity described crosses my personal line of what is acceptable for ME, everyone else has to answer that for themselves.

Fine comments, gentlemen. Are you aware of any hunting related organizations having expressed opinion on such activities or having taken action or imposed sanctions of any kind?

[ 05-12-2003, 05:17: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

although the piece is written in a very emotive way, and designed to appeal to the average shit for brained, know nothing, unadventurous town dweller, it is (sadly) not inaccurate with regard to the canned lion shooting story that happens in some parts of RSA.

PHASA condemns all canned shooting whether it be for Lion or any other species.... I believe their exact policy can be found on their new website. However RSA now has something like 9(?) provinces, each with it's own game ordinance. Sadly some of those provinces do not outlaw canned Lion shooting........... which in the opinion of this Professional Hunter is nothing short of a f****ng disgrace. I would like to see the whole bunch of these guys jailed.

Having said that I also see the press generally and the author of that particular piece as vermin of the worst kind. ( the best thing one could do with them is to feed 'em to the Lions!) To paint the whole hunting world in those colours is a gross slander.

The situation in RSA with dangerous game is the sole reason that I do not (usually) hunt dangerous game within South Africa. I personally prefer to hunt my DG in true wilderness areas where you know the animals are truly wild...... it's more expensive, but well worth the extra money.

Thanks Steve, for reading through this and offering your views. If you can look into the matter and gain still deeper insight to this, I'd surely appreciate it. I would like to get involved in this but I first want to have my facts straight.

Some thoughts.

This is not hunting, and we as hunters should object most strongly to calling it hunting. At best it is culling, or harvesting or just shooting.

I am against passing laws trying to make this practice illegal, because the ARFs will use any such legality to the detriment of hunting and hunters. The Animal Rights Fanatics see this canned shooting of lions as the same as hunting, and they will use any method they find to try to make hunting illegal.

I would like to go lion hunting, but I expect to go somewhere outside RSA to do it.

jim dodd

Nickudu,

This is actually one of my hobby-horses, I bend PHASA's ear about it on a regular basis.... and everyone else's. But frankly the various Parks Boards can't even agree on what day of the week it is, so there's no chance of them forming a united front on the subject of canned shooting. (please note I say shooting not hunting)

I personally believe that we as hunters need to try to do something about it ourselves. For example exclude ALL RSA Lions from the record books.

Jim Dodd,
I suspect you are right and see the wisdom in your words but by what mechanism do we "strongly object"?

Steve,
I looked at "PHASA" and they do, as you say, express this view. However much I search, I can not find similar sentiment emanating from S.C.I. and frankly, I have found literally dozens of pro-animal / anti-hunting sites that accuse S.C.I. of promoting "canned hunts" via its encouragement of hunters to patronize entities which, in their view , offer such.

[ 05-10-2003, 22:48: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

Nick,

Anything can be "bought" nowadays, and this goes for the cheap thrills of shooting anything, pretty much, any way you want if you can afford it. My biggest concern, with these types of things, is the image it projects to the "Non-hunters", the ones that don't hunt personally but think it's OK if others do it. Sometime in the future, things as described in your post are going to taint the image of good, honest hunters and our cause will be much closer to being lost.
Fences, no matter how large or small the enclosure, conjure up images to non-hunters that will push them from the noncaring middle of the road into the lap of people that want all of our activities to stop. Hunting, is so much more to some than a couple of weeks or multiple weekends in the bush. To some, it's life itself. Overstated? I think not. Unless we're willing to objecttively clean up our own house, we can only expect the unknowing to turn the tide against us and allow those who oppose what we do to clean our house for us.

Nick you do a great service on these forums, sort of the thinking man's posts, if you will. Keep it up.

Joe

The problem is that we almost need to establish some kind of society that sends inspectors around to check the hunting facilities and opportunities of individual areas and give them a star rating of some kind. Something like an association of fair chase hunters. But frankly I wouldn't know how this could be done....let alone financed.

I went to the Dallas Safari Club convention in January and had a guy come to my booth with a real tale of woe. He'd spent US$40K on a Lion hunt in RSA the previous year and only realised afterwards that he had shot a canned lion without realising it until he got home.

I guess the only practical thing to do is to book your hunt with someone who has a reputation for fair chase hunting and only hunt dangerous game in a true wilderness areas such as Tanzania, Mozambique or Zim.

...... so book now while prices are low!!

Good to hear from you, Joe. Your words sum up my feelings well. We, as hunters, have the ability to make distinctions about "things hunting", whether or not we subcribe to them. When it comes to the non-hunters, we are remiss if we take their relatively neutral stance for granted. We can not expect them to make these distinctions, which is why I am concerned with this issue. As you say, it just looks bad, period. I am looking for a direction to go because I think I should be "going somewhere" with this.

Steve, Does that story not smack of inexperience on the part of the hunter? Being wealthy doesn't preclude him from seeking counsel with those of greater experience, prior to booking. To my mind, it is largely his own doing.

Nickudu, I know your question was directed back at Jim Dodd but Id like to try and answer it.

The first and foremost way is to vote with our dollars or whatever currency. Dont support it.

Second, bend the ears of all friends, and aquaintances to the reallity of the situation

Third, Speak up at meetings of the various hunting organizations wherever they may be.

Fourth, perhaps we should start an email campaign to all the appropriate parties and organizations.

Last, Educate everyone to the fact that this type of shooting is not hunting in any way shape or form. I had considered hunting lion in RSA until I learned the truth of the situation. Until I did some research on it I had no idea what was actually involved. Had I not done my homework I would have gone into a situation expecting one thing and ended up with another.

Ok, Ill get off my soapbox now. Thanks for hearing me out so to speak.

[ 05-11-2003, 03:19: Message edited by: Mike Smith ]

Stay on the soapbox with me Mike. I need all the help I can get. Just what are the entities best able to address our concerns, at home and abroad?
Quite honestly, I do not know and that's the bitterest pill of all.

So lets use the shotgun approach and hit them all.

Nickudu,

yes I guess the guy was a bit dumb to fall for it initially, but it doesn't alter the fact that the current legislation in RSA allowed it to happen without any laws being broken. Which is an obscenity.

One vitally important rule about Africa is to never say never, and never say always. So with that in mind, I won't say never hunt DG in RSA, but it should be the rare exception rather than the rule.

I believe that about the only time dangerous game should be hunted in SA is if the hunter might have physical difficulties in hunting a true wilderness area and only then in a large Biosphere Reserve of something like 3000 acres or larger.

One country that more hunters should consider is Mozambique. It's a true wilderness area, has good hunting and is less expensive than Tanzania. The downside is that the camps are less luxurious. But there's no such thing as a free lunch is there.

I have not hunted lion and may never have an opportunity to do so; BUT if I ever do, then I hope Leo leads me on an extremely grueling hunt on foot and that it takes every bit of my skill, stamina, and courage (as well as that of my PH) to take him. And if the kill isn't made, then I will still have the memories of the grand chase of one of the noblest game animals on Earth. Anyone can shoot tame animals--that isn't hunting--it's just killing. FWIW--my $0.02.

Good HUNTING,

I have always taken the hard line on this issue. Wild animals are wild animals and anything else isn't. Whether it is a lion raised to shoot, a fenced ranch in Texas, a fenced ranch in RSA, or a bison herd on a ranch in Wyoming, you are shooting tame animals to some extent. I know there are problems with things like poachers, range limits etc, but these should be dealt with directly. When a rancher in Africa advertises his ranch for sale and lists the exact number of kudu and impala on it, he is doing the same thing a bison farmer does when he charges hunters to shoot animals for meat. If it isn't wild, don't hunt it. If that isn't possible, then face the fact that you were born too late. We don't have sword fights with pirates either, but kids still dream about it. However, they don't pay people to have sword fights with them. I know that may sound nuts, but in my mind it's an exact analogy. We all dream of the Africa (and North America) of old, but it doesn't exist. We should take what is offered and not try to manufacture something. That only plays into the hands of the anti's. If we channel our money to the people who are building sustainable resources, they will prosper and not the game farms.

Art S. - Understood but I think this facet of our hunting reality is of a different nature and I don't much like leaving it for anti's or non's to sort out. There is a nasty stigma attached and I don't like being associated with it. It reeks of greed and soulessness and something tells me that letting it fester is a big mistake.

Not knowing what else to do, I'll take the names and addresses of willing members via email for two weeks time and then submit them to the authorities mentioned in the above article and those found on the PHASA website, along with a statement of our position on the matter. If anyone has a better idea, I'm all ears.

Im in!

Thanks Mike. That makes 5 so far. What the hell, gotta do somethin'!

8mm or More,
I think I would agree with that. "This is not hunting" is enough said. That's the route I'll take.

PHASA will agree with you.......... it's not hunting, but it's very difficult to police and PHASA would love for someone to find a way to do something about it.

Art S.......... The africa of old does still exist, you just have to be willing to pay for it. Tanzania, Mozambique, Cameroon, (most of) Zim and a few others still have great hunting and no fences, but the rates are a lot more expensive as there's no supermarkets just down the road and all supplies have to come into camp by way of a charter plane or a 2 or 3 day road journey.

But it's still possible to buy a 7 day Buff package in these places for less than US$9000 per hunter............ and it's an experience you'll never forget.

mikeh416Rigby,
Yes, I had read of this sometime back. Guess I'm looking for a stronger and more current statement of rejection from them. Likely, I expect too much and know too little but that doesn't alter my gut feeling on the issue. Thanks for mentioning this.

I have the email response of 6 Forum members, providing names, addresses and further comment. I hope more are forthcoming.

/

Nick
I have thought about your post. I feel we should be careful about posting our feelings on a public forum as I have seen links to fighting between compound and traditional bowhunters posted on anti sights. Remember what we say can and will be used against us.
I must say I find the shooting of these animals distasteful. But a have often wondered about the very thing Alf just said.
I feel the only way we have to police these practices are to try and get them banned from being entered in the books.( if they already are then make it more well known. When that is done it also should be stated where these banned animals come from and are hunted. "Not just a ban on hunts that aren't fairchase". Because without that info made easy to find someone will always get suckered. Or take part unknowing. I hunted with an honest ph so I saw the fence lines and knew the area sizes. I will support any movement in this general area. If he had gotten me up befors light taken certain roads ect, you would have a clue. I was told of a lion operation in the area that was even known to stuff the lion so full they could hardly move before bring the hunter in.
I am not squeaky clean myself as I have taken a few gamefarm hogs myself. Now I don't consider it hunting in anyway only a form of live target practice. I cant see any difference between this or the farmer shooting the animal as that is why it was raised.
I must say I also disagree with the raised lion being a "noble animal' IMHO a lion in the wild is a "noble animal" because he is wild and fights for live everyday! The hand raised lion is just livestock IMO.
So even though I'm not very good at saying what I mean I would support your letter if this mess is handled in house by us hunters not on the front page of some liberal newspaper for antis to twist turn and shove up our backsides.
Let me know if you need a signature sci # or ect. Hope this makes sense and don't think me to bad for my pig killing.
Dean

Ps. Ever wonder how much of this goes on here? Like how nice and juicy it is when a staff shooters takes the world record archery elk. $$$$$$$$$

I will try to clarify what I mean here. I agree that the breeders are needed for the various species to survive. I dont have a problem with animals being bred for hunting.This is especially true if it guarantees the survival of the species. Being realistic, I know that these operations have to make a profit to stay in buisness like any other. What I object to is the manner of the shoot on lions. I wont even dignify it as a hunt. I believe that it can be done ethically but of course it will cost more.

The new law requiring the lion to be released on the property for 6 months before it can be hunted is a good start.

The animals should not come at the sound of a bakkie looking for their next meal. That is unless they are true maneaters.LOL! Really it is the manner the animals are reared and fed after release that are a problem. They should not be hand reared or supplementaly fed to where they either loose their fear or become dependent on the humans for the next meal. Any supplemental feeding should be done in a manner to maintain the natural affair of things as much as possible. As an example the feed should be the normal prey and placed at random locations at different times.

Last, this is one of the few times I believe a minimum property size is appropriate. I am not qualified to say how big an area that is but I have an idea. I will let some of the pros answer that one.

AS to that article, it was obviously an attempt to produce an emotional response form the anti group. What is this crap about drugging a lion so it cant run away? Or tying a bait so the hunters would know right where to look the next day. Hmm, now to think about it is that so different from traditional baiting techniques? How do you answer that one.

This issue is a political minefield. The antis will grab at anything they can use and twist for their aggenda.

It is good that SCI dosnt recognize lions from RSA. I will commend them on that. It is in my opinion only a start. More needs to be done. I dont know who we should put pressure on. Like stated before the shotgun approach is perhaps the best. Hit all of the involved organizations with it. This is one time I think that there needs to be some rules. I normally am against more laws for these types of things. However that dosnt mean we cant come up with a practical set of rules of conduct. It dosnt have to be a law. The most important thing is to vote with your money. Dont support it. Unfortunately there are always those who will pay any price. There is a lot of money to be made here and that is where we need to apply the pressure. SCi and PHASA are a good start. What about the europeans? Are there organizations there other than SCI that can be approached?

Alf - I was hoping we might benefit from your acumen. Thanks for posting.

Tonto - Good thoughts. Thanks.

Mike Smith - I think you may have saved me the time of organizing and jotting down my thoughts, at this point. I especially agree with paragraph 1, in which I think you have the essence of it.

So Gentlemen, what should we do with this? I have but 6 names, including my own, and remain willing to compose and submit a statement.
It seems we are none-to-sure of exactly what we might encompass in this statement, or where best to send it. Because so may have here stated that they oppose "canned hunting", personally, I hope this train of thought doesn't die on the vine. I am thinking to submit a statement, in two weeks time, regardless of the talley of names attached.

Nick,

Count me in on this. I don't think my e-mail sending is working and I'm not sure now how long it hasn't.

One last thought: I don't buy not discussing this openly because the antis will use any conflict among us against us. Hell, we know where they stand. It's the "non-hunters", that don't mind us pursueing our passion, that need to see that we are not afraid to clean up our own house. More and more hunting issues are finding their way on to ballots in different states and are being voted on by people that don't share our passion. They need to know what the majority of hunters "are all about". Think about this! A guy or gal sits in an office all week and hears about "anything" being shot "behind a fence". They don't know whether the area within the fence is the size of Rhode Island or as big as an empty K-mart parking lot. Put a Lion in the mix and ...........well.........all of the childish warm fuzzies come pouring out. Don't be afraid to take a stand. Don't expect organizations to spearhead the challenge.............it comes down to the grassroots, the individual hunter. Instead of giving money to an organization to speak for you, buy a roll of stamps and PERSONALLY
contact organizations, representatives, local civic groups that don't share your views....etc.
Respectfully done, you will be amazed at the results. A letter is almost always opened and read..............no so an e-mail from an unfamiliar source. Those of us that are part of the "industry", should be the first to point out any shortcoming and be willing to take a hit for the good of the future.of our sport and the future of the animals themselves. Thanks , again, Nick for the thought provoking post. It's a shame so few members are willing to participate, but I can't say I'm surprised.

Joe

I hesitate to speculate-but I have heard of some cats who are charted to distant locations where a convienant bait awaits and a Ph claims he has an animal hiting the bait. You wouldn't know the differance. Many miles from RSA --money talks.
To shoot a wild lion - shoot a maneless one to be sure. Capmed

Ovis: "I don't buy not discussing this openly because the antis will use any conflict among us against us. Hell, we know where they stand. It's the "non-hunters", that don't mind us pursueing our passion, that need to see that we are not afraid to clean up our own house".

Nickudu: "When it comes to the non-hunters, we are remiss if we take their relatively neutral stance for granted. We can not expect them to make these distinctions, ....".

We are like-minded on this point, Joe, but why the hell does our stating so require a personal quest of epic proportion? Two prime reasons come to mind; Global media bias against hunters and the lack of vision, call that "PR" focus, from our hunter supported organizations. Perhaps it is they we should be talking to!

Alf:
How are your Rhinos?
Glad to see you come out of the woodwork.

I really don't care what it takes, but the guys that own the ranches have to be able to keep them wild, and profitable.

If it takes breeding, and shooting lions, so be it.

My hope are SARS, AIDS, war, famine, giving the animals a fighting chance, and stopping the over population of their habitat.

s

Nickudu

I just checked back in. Count me in too.

Nick,

You ask why it "takes a personal quest of epic proportion"? Apathy, plain and simple! I feel we depend too much on organizational representation and not enough on individual effort. Individual effort is the exception, not the norm. There should be a combination of the two but society's demands, being what they are today, hinder individual action and make dependence on organizational representation not only convenient, but a money making proposition for the various organizations. National organizations are very strong and it is convenient to have them speak for the individual. Local organizations suffer from "the same guys running the show syndrome". Usually "the same guys" do it because no one else wants to do it but everyone wants a piece of the action but with no active participation involved. "The same guys" should be commended for their effort, but that's not usually the case.
Nick, sadly, in the end, the future of our great way of life will be in the hands of the unknowing and uncaring. History will show that we(hunters) will have had a hand in our own demise. I appreciate your personal efforts and immensely enjoy your photographic looks at the past.

Joe