quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
I would like to see the status of the safari industry without SCI and the show. It reminds me of when I was in the US Navy stationed on Okanawa and the native population would get up and start "Yankee go Home" etc. The base commanders would stop all liberty passes for a week and the natives would cry "where is the money".

The difference in this case is that SCI takes rather than gives whereas in the case the case you mention in Okinawa, the military gave rather than takes.

Oh by the way SCI IS NOT A CONSERVATION ORGANIZATION, it is a lobbying organization.

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Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
I would like to see the status of the safari industry without SCI and the show.

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Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
SCI is no NRA 50,000 members vs 4,000,000, and I might add many people have been at offs with the NRA.

As that old saying goes You can please all of the people some of the time and you can please some of the people all of time but you can't please all of the people all of the time.

I have found as I grow older I can't please all of the people all of the time, but I sure can piss them off all the time.

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Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
Did anyone check to see what the "show" costs SCI to hold. Oh I forgot all those people work for nothing the venue is free etc.

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Originally posted by shakari:
I'll bet a pound to a pinch of the brown stuff it doesn't cost them anywhere near as much as they rake in for it from just the gate money let alone donations and auctions.

Perhaps someone could tell us if they publish those figures?

I'm sure I'm not the only one who would be interested to know what they were.......

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Let's assume that there are 1020 exhibitors (there's actually an awful lot more because many rank equally) and lets assume a third of them are in the African hunting industry...... So that's 340 and let's be what I reckon is probably very generous and assume that each of their donations is worth an average of USD10K...... Many are considerably higher.

At those figures that equals a total amount of US$3400000 in donations alone.

Add onto that the cost of the exhibitors getting to the states, transport, accommodation and hospitality whilst there. Then add the hellishly high cost of the booth space and equipping the booth on top of that and you can probably say a total figure of the attending, exhibiting and donating is something in the region of US$6800000.

Personally, I'd guess the real figures would be a fair bit higher than that but I'll work on those figures for convenience.

Also bear in mind that SCI then auction those hunts off at let's say an average of 30C in the US$ which would translate to an income of over US$2M.

Now remember that those costs have at some point to be passed onto the customer because if they weren't, everyone would go out of business.

Now perhaps someone could remind me of the figure quoted earlier in the debate that SCI put back into Africa.

Oh yes. I remember now. It was US$123K.

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Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:

I have found as I grow older I can't please all of the people all of the time, but I sure can piss them off all the time.

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Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
Since you are no longer in the business of selling hunts or buying hunts as a consumer what the F*ck is your dog in this fight? Oh I know you are retired and have nothing better to do with your time, eh.

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Originally posted by LHowell:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Let's assume that there are 1020 exhibitors (there's actually an awful lot more because many rank equally) and lets assume a third of them are in the African hunting industry...... So that's 340 and let's be what I reckon is probably very generous and assume that each of their donations is worth an average of USD10K...... Many are considerably higher.

At those figures that equals a total amount of US$3400000 in donations alone.

Add onto that the cost of the exhibitors getting to the states, transport, accommodation and hospitality whilst there. Then add the hellishly high cost of the booth space and equipping the booth on top of that and you can probably say a total figure of the attending, exhibiting and donating is something in the region of US$6800000.

Personally, I'd guess the real figures would be a fair bit higher than that but I'll work on those figures for convenience.

Also bear in mind that SCI then auction those hunts off at let's say an average of 30C in the US$ which would translate to an income of over US$2M.

Now remember that those costs have at some point to be passed onto the customer because if they weren't, everyone would go out of business.

Now perhaps someone could remind me of the figure quoted earlier in the debate that SCI put back into Africa.

Oh yes. I remember now. It was US$123K.

Steve,

While adding to your maths above, the attendance last year was 23,267 and if each person attended two days and paid $150 per day to attend, they paid in almost $6,000,000 and likely more. [and I'd say spent AT LEAST as much as the exhibitors to stay and eat in Las Vegas]


And, while I think your assumptions 1/3 of exhibitors being African Safari providers, and the amount they contribute are both extremely inflated [booth space rent is really only slightly more expensive than any other equivalent show, and the requested donation is $1,000]

- doesn't the bottom line continue to be; If it did not make economic sense to attend - they surely would not.


Les

PS and by the way, why does the Dallas Safari Club seem to get a free pass in this debate? Costs are very similar, and attendance was around 38000 last year.

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Originally posted by shakari:
Let's do some VERY rough maths:

This lists the exhibitors.

Let's assume that there are 1020 exhibitors (there's actually an awful lot more because many rank equally) and lets assume a third of them are in the African hunting industry...... So that's 340 and let's be what I reckon is probably very generous and assume that each of their donations is worth an average of USD10K...... Many are considerably higher.

At those figures that equals a total amount of US$3400000 in donations alone.

Add onto that the cost of the exhibitors getting to the states, transport, accommodation and hospitality whilst there. Then add the hellishly high cost of the booth space and equipping the booth on top of that and you can probably say a total figure of the attending, exhibiting and donating is something in the region of US$6800000.

Personally, I'd guess the real figures would be a fair bit higher than that (to say the least) but I'll work on those figures for convenience.

Also bear in mind that SCI then auction those hunts off at let's say an average of 30C in the US$ which would translate to an income of over US$2M.

Now remember that those costs have at some point to be passed onto the customer because if they weren't, everyone would go out of business.

Now perhaps someone could remind me of the figure quoted earlier in the debate that SCI put back into Africa.

Oh yes. I remember now. It was US$123K.

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Originally posted by Ganyana:
The problem is leadership and concepts.

A decade back SCI upset the industry in Zim at least sufficiently for the government to begin enforcing the ban on donating hunts to SCI. This is still law BTW.

You can pay for a booth- that is marketing and part of the marketing Budget. You may NOT donate a hunt which sells for less than 'market value'.

So- every hunt you see 'donated' that takes palce in Zimbabwe has to be paid for by 'Hidden' income from the paying clients at the full market value. (well at least the Government determined minimum market value - US$7500 now for a buff hunt, 25k for lion etc). In this Steve is right. The individuals that buy the donated hunts are subsidised by the rest. That SCI raises only .30c on the true vallue of the hunt is what offends me most. If I 'donate (pay) SCI 10k worth of hunts as part of my marketing..that is fine, but that it sells for say 3k is an insult.

Personally have always stuck to the letter of the law and Never donated anything. Happy to pay for a booth- it was necessary when I was getting set- but no donations. If SCI wants more money- put up the price of the booth.

On the other hand I have seen how many of these donated hunts are run. The operator is offended becuase he has got only 30% value in credits out of his donation (even if they are his own animals and he doesn't have to pay anybody except himself for them -like me usually- the government still demands that the money is bough in to the country and banked and taxed and changed at the 'official rate and...You can write of at least 50% of the value even if you don't have to pay for the animals and most operators DO have to pay Parks or the tribal authority or the land owner for the animals)

He looks at WHO is comming--is he going to get any real marketing advantage out of it? and then he decides. If it is an SCI big wig then the hunt gets laid on properly. If it isn't the operator tries to cut cost to an absolute minimum. You hire a cheaper PH (and don't worry what sort of truck he has), you cut down on food and drink in camp, if you have more than one area, you put the 'freebe' in the worst area. Seen it too often.

Altogether it is the hunt 'donations' that have led to the worst problems. The leadership trying to get the best for themselves..operator dissatisfaction..African Government outrage...

If you want to be involved in conservation in Africa- do not insult and offend the African Government.

If you want to ensure your members get quality hunts and quality service you need to controll who markets on your floors and react quickly to dodgy operators (who either rip off members or bring SCI into disretue in Africa) and not let them keep going because they 'donate' so much.

SCI could be so much more than it is. And, for the sake of conservation, it is a real pitty it has Not risen to the challenge. It could have, it may still do so- but starting by offending the African conservation Authorities and the Safari companies is probably not the best way forward. Many of the folk at SCI know this and are trying to work forward.

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If it is an SCI big wig then the hunt gets laid on properly. If it isn't the operator tries to cut cost to an absolute minimum. You hire a cheaper PH (and don't worry what sort of truck he has), you cut down on food and drink in camp, if you have more than one area, you put the 'freebe' in the worst area.

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Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

If it is an SCI big wig then the hunt gets laid on properly. If it isn't the operator tries to cut cost to an absolute minimum. You hire a cheaper PH (and don't worry what sort of truck he has), you cut down on food and drink in camp, if you have more than one area, you put the 'freebe' in the worst area.

That's where the problem lies!
Why should the SCI big wigs be mollycoddled and the 'ordinary hunter' be treated as a 3rd rate citizen?

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
The problem is leadership and concepts.

A decade back SCI upset the industry in Zim at least sufficiently for the government to begin enforcing the ban on donating hunts to SCI. This is still law BTW.

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Originally posted by SG Olds:
Why doesn't SCI advertise much more outside AR with detailed specifics and photos, all the "good" they do. As a member, it seems to me they generalize and say we are great, but only to members or the hunting community.
I believe that SCI is missing the point. Bragging to members and hunters isn't the way to go. That's what our opponents do.

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Originally posted by Ganyana:
Reserve bank act as amended 2002. The provision was there under SI 362 of 1990 which made it a requirement to get permission before you could sell or donate any animal or safari service at below 'market' value. From The introduction of the TR2 (replacing the NP 9), no trophy export could be processed without providing the banking slips to show that the hunt had been paid for at an 'acceptable' (acceptable to the reserve bank of Zimbabwe) price.


I was still in government when this amendment was drafted and it is largely thanks to Rudy Rosen from SCI that Zim operators were burdened with this.

THAT is what SCI does for Hunters
I don't have copies of the new regs to hand- they are provided with every Appies study pack though.

Not all at SCI management are a problem- as I have said, there have been some darn fine folk who worked or are still working for the bennefit of either members or conservation - the two interests don't always co-incide. Unfortunately there have been a handful in top management that have done far more harm than the average American could ever consive. Getting legislation chaned takes either years of lobying or a real government (not industry) desire.

Undoing the TR2 legislation will take years.

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Chapter fundraisers are a whole different ballgame. I think I will hang a sign on my booth at Reno next year.... "NO SOLICITING of HUNT DONATIONS AT THIS BOOTH"

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Wow - that is a really weird law!!! Government setting a floor-price on a product/service like that. That sounds like collusion!! Big Grin

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Originally posted by Singleshot03:

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Chapter fundraisers are a whole different ballgame. I think I will hang a sign on my booth at Reno next year.... "NO SOLICITING of HUNT DONATIONS AT THIS BOOTH"

Matt, how are chapter fundraiser different?

Jim