Elephant hunters,

Have any of you ever brained an elephant using a .375 before? If so, which bullet selection did you use? Solids? Partitions/TBBC? How about the newer TSX bullets?

Just curious.

I'll let you know in about 3-weeks!

I've seen elephant brained with a 375 (2x) and they work like the hammer of thor (assuming of course that you hit the brain).

You definitely want a solid though.

The expanding bullets you mentioned are definite no-no's on ele.

I'm taking Woodleighs, Barnes and North Forks (all in solids).

I have seen it done more than several times..

Always use ONLY solids on elephant, nothing else has the penetration to be relied on 99% of the time...

"The .375 is an excellent elephant rifle for those who shoot well" quote from Johan Calitz, who could better quaify a elephant rifle.

Add Tony Snachez-Arino to those that prefer the 375 for his clients to take elephants. As Ray says, with solids of course. jorge

Add me also to that solids from any rifle..That animal deserves nothing less..


Mike

A good solid in your 375 H&H placed in the proper place, and weigh the ivory!

Always remember "the proper place" and it's not very big. I tried for my first with a 375. Frontal slightly uphill shot at approx 25 meters. Missed the angle and he went down on his rear like the above mentioned hammer and then bounced right back up just like a jack in the box. As he spun I put a second round in the Heart/lung area and he was gone in tall grass taller than he was. To make a short story long we found blood from his trunk where he had stopped then he never stopped till he was across the park boundary where we could not follow. This was in the Doma area of Zim. Needless to say I lost the bull. Have not used the 375 on Ele since. Went out and bought a new 470 Merkel and also don't take brain shots any more. I can't judge the angle well enough. Moot point as I will probably never get the opportunity again.

Somewhat related, there's an interesting article by Ganyana in the "iDube" (Zebra) edition of the African Hunter, discussing the "knock out factor", including "non-lethal" frontal brain shots. Maybe if Ganyana is around he can chime in.

Yes, I used a .375 with 286 grain PMP solids. It was a broadside brain shot at 35 yards. Elephant's rear legs collapsed and it fell over to the side with it's trunk whipping up in the air. I have it on video.

Hey Matt,
Please post the video !!!
Thank you!

Matt,

Go look at your video. The trunk flips up, then the back legs start to collapse, then the front legs start to collapse. This is bang, bang, bang, almost too fast to see.

Zimbabwe,

My contention all along. Some eles will drop stunned for a second or so to a near miss of the brain, some will be knocked out cold for some minutes, and others will not be phased at all.

Sure a 375 will kill an elephant if brained but it is just too little if the shot is blown, no reserve energy to knock an ele on its butt so there is at least time for another shot. And I don't care what Taylor, or anyone else, says, that is just the way it is!

And if the brain is missed by a bunch, that ele is instantly hauling ass!

Will,

What is it you want me to look at? I've looked at it maybe 100 times. Is there something different I should look for?

gas57, I'm sending you a pm

Bigger is always better for the really big stuff. A .375 will kill an Elephant but a 416 is better and a 458 (esp Lott or 3 inch) etc is better still .......but only assuming good shot placement in all cases and to get good shot placement you need to be comfortable with that particular rifle/calibre.

So my advice would be to use as big a calibre as you can shoot comfortably and confidently. I'd rather have a client use a .375 he shoots well than one who uses a 458 he's scared of.

I have shot 12 jumbos in the brain with a 375 and its just fine.

quote:

Originally posted by LV Eric:
I have shot 12 jumbos in the brain with a 375 and its just fine.

Which bullets did you use?

Thank you,
Roland

Added horsepower can be of assistance. Just watched some footage of 500grains dropping some of his ele's this trip. Missed the brain on one, but it certainly flattened her.

On the other hand, Ann's tuskless went down as fast with that .375 as any of Dans' with the .500.

On the proficiency this week we had one candidate try five frontal brain shots on an ele with a .458 win. Fairly big boddied bull. All shots reasonably placed in the head, and that was one of the two "wounded and lost" at the end of the day...

I still like a bullet in the right place, and if a .375 is what you are comfortable shooting then use it rather than something bigger that has more recoil than you can handle.

Accuracy wins every time.

Bullets? Shoot woodleighs personally.

Teat Hound:

Never hunted elephant -but my PH did very often for the Ministry of Parks and Game (as it was called back in the 60s) in Zimbabwe and told me that the 375 routinely was used in culling out elephant -exactly because of being so flat shooting (so the hunter could stand off) and because of its great reputation for penetration. (like the 7x57 Mauser) I'm not surprised that the 375 still is dropping elephant. As better shooters than me say all the time - bullet placement is the name of the game. (From what I heard, it's better to put the bullet in his ear after coming up alongside him but if you have to shoot at an elephant head on, you could do worse, a hell of a lot worse, than using a 375 H&H.

L.V.Eric:

Maybe you missed the class but you sure graduated with honors!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Always use ONLY solids on elephant, nothing else has the penetration to be relied on 99% of the time...

Ray (and others), would you use the cup-point solids for this application?? Or would you save those for buffalo (and other softer species)??

The cup-points are sorts of "semi-solids", so I was wondering whether you'd trust them to deliver the penetration required for ele??

- mike

quote:

Originally posted by gerry375:
L.V.Eric:

Maybe you missed the class but you sure graduated with honors!

Thanks, I have been very lucky in life and never let a day go by with out appericating it.

I use those Speer tugsten Core bullets, 300grs @ around 2400fps as I remember, Its been 4 years ago since i chronographed them but I use the same ammo and same gun each time so I dont have to reinvent the wheel.

Only in one instance was I undergunned and it was on a follow up shot from behind on a cow that was standing up after a poor shot(long story I posted somewhere here once), I just didnt have the penetration and knock down power i needed, until your really there its just a bunch of words but the concept of knock-down power says it all, its an old book but is correct all the fancy descriptions created since are justr that-fancy useless jibberish.


I know for a fact that a 375 for a client gun is fine for braining any elephant anytime period. For a back-up its too small. If you cant get it done with a 375 then the shot is too dodgy for the client to begin with and no gun is going to solve that problem. Learning to shoot is more important than any gun/caliber ever.

At no time EVER shoud anything else be used on braining an elephant except for solids, unless its a 100 pound jumbo and your following a wounded Kudu and have X bullets, then who care s its a once in a life time shot.

Its awalys too see the back legs collapse first, when the front legs go first there is usually some work left.

mho

Having seen barnes super solids bend, Speer AGS break appart, woodleigh solids rivet and fishtail, and the old RWS FMJ's disintergrate, I want solids only! For a lung shot...you might make a case for a cup point if you are being backed up

Ganyana,

Does a high velocity 458 caliber stun elephant on a near miss more than, say a 375 or 416? Or is it possible to tell the difference since no one knows how close to the brain the bullet passed?

Ive shot bison, cattle, horses, deer and elk just missing the brain w a variety of calibers and it has always stunned them. Usually stagger around but stay on their feet.

Im using a 450 Dakota and 450 grain North Fork FN and/or 465 grain TCCI solid RN in a couple weeks in Dande North.

Andy

Andy

Subscribe to African Hunter- article in there on the topic and Ian Nychens and Richard Harland have other opinions and there is a re-look at the subject by those two (and possibly others) in the December issue.

My opinion- I want some velocity and I want to hit the brain. Watching the parks cine footage of the culls and some of the later video footage, a .458 Lott certainly puts an elephant down quicker than a .458.

Ian and I had this argument yesterday. I don't belive that a bullet will stun a bull unless the bullet nicks the brain. Saw 4 .700 nitro's hit an ele in the head all arround the brain- within a couple of inches and it was a little woozy on its feet but it was certainly not "knocked out". It fell to a heart shot from behind and we dissected the skull to make sure there wasn't bullet failure.

Ian has shot many many more elephant than me and likes a .475 No2, except in very thick stuff when he wants a .500. But in thick stuff Ian was shooting cows from the front but bulls from the side. I am not sold on the penetration of either round on a big bull.

What is apparent is that a hit in the face with a cannon will offten stop an elephant, even if it does no damage. The ele skids to a halt and shakes it's head - trying to clear its mind, and then, if it is a bull, it runs away and if it is a cow, it comes on. A 9,3 or .375 seldom causes a tempory halt in proceedings.

Also, Buzz Charlton is releasing a video in December on "how to hunt elephant" included in there is footage of over 100 ele hunts. Almost all brain shots. There is footage of a cow being "knocked down" by a .500 NE that just misses the brain - but she is soon up etc. Well worth buying. There may be footage in there that will convince me that Ian is right

Ganyana,

So I'm right, as usual.

If horsepower didn't matter, everyone would be using a 7x57 (sufficient penetration) and there would be no doubts.

Admittedly, if the brain is missed by X inches, there is usually not much effect, but ON THE WHOLE the big guns make a difference, as every old-time elephant hunter knows, and has so stated in word or print.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:

Also, Buzz Charlton is releasing a video in December on "how to hunt elephant" included in there is footage of over 100 ele hunts. Almost all brain shots. There is footage of a cow being "knocked down" by a .500 NE that just misses the brain - but she is soon up etc. Well worth buying. There may be footage in there that will convince me that Ian is right

Ganyana,
How can one go about getting the video? Is it going to be a dvd release?

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Ganyana,

So I'm right, as usual.

Zimbabwe,
Has that 470 made up for your poor shooting?

I really should take offense but when you get our age you recognize an asshole when you see one and excuse him. I hit precisely where I aimed , I misjudged where the brain was . At that time in my life I would put my shooting up against yours ANY day. And yes I did kill the next elephant I shot with the 470.

damn i hping for a wwf smack down match..........triple h ray...vs.....stone cold babewe

Have I missed some dirt here? Ray, what are you on the rag about?

Will

Teat Hound

It will be a DVD. Being edited at the moment in the USA, and a prelim copy's are being sent out for review shortly. They will be on sale at the ZATSO booth at SCI, and I know Buzz is trying to put order forms in African Hunter etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Teat Hound

It will be a DVD. Being edited at the moment in the USA, and a prelim copy's are being sent out for review shortly. They will be on sale at the ZATSO booth at SCI, and I know Buzz is trying to put order forms in African Hunter etc.

Thanks, I now have another reason to go to Reno this winter . . .

Well, having brained an Ele 5 months ago in Zim, with a 375, I have the following to say - It is adequate, just. My shot dropped the bull in his tracks, but then he got up. My "perfect" brain shot required three shots to the heart and a side brain shot to finish the business. If I were making the trip now, I would go out toting nothing less than one of the forty calibers and would prefer at least a 458 Lott. But then, I am no crack shot.
Off topic (a little), I am looking at having a Pedersoli 45-70 converted to 450 N.E. No. 2. Rusty, would that qualify me for admission to the DRSS?

quote:

Well, having brained an Ele 5 months ago in Zim

I dare say you "nearly" brained your Elephant. If you had hit the brain the size of the bullet would have made little difference.

Jason

a 375 is MORE than enough for a initial brain shot, I cant understand what the problem is, when you hit the brain its lights out, i have shot a few with out an insurance shot. practice makes perfect. like i said it aint the gun.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Zimbabwe,
Has that 470 made up for your poor shooting?

You guys have to excuse Ray. What he meant to infer was that a heavy gun will not generally improve ones ability to correctly place a bullet. Rather make it worse.

But since on some days he has the manners of outcast bull buffalo with a thorn in his nuts and is admittedly less tolerant to recoil than a small kitten with AIDS it didn't come across that way.



He don't have couth and etiquette like me.

[/QUOTE]

I dare say you "nearly" brained your Elephant. If you had hit the brain the size of the bullet would have made little difference.

Jason[/QUOTE]

Not to be picky, but if you had read and understood what I posted, you would see that I did hit the brain with the first shot, it was just a little lower than it should have been and didn't do the job as it should have. If I had used a bigger gun, bullet, whatever, would it have made any difference? Probably not. But do we know that for sure? Would you bet your life on it? As I stated, the 375 is adequate, but then... Do you get to practice and shoot Ele's everyday, because I don't?

BWN300MAG

So you mean you hit the brain(the bullet perferated the brain) and the Elephant ran off? I have never heard of that! I wonder if anyone else has.

quote:

Would you bet your life on it?

Yes I would and did. Killed a bull at 23 paces in Zimbabwe in 2003. 375H&H with a 300gr Woodleigh FMJ. One shot to the brain did the job.

Jason

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

So you mean you hit the brain(the bullet perferated the brain) and the Elephant ran off? I have never heard of that! I wonder if anyone else has.

I recall reading an article in African Hunter recently where it was stated that elephant brains can be perferated without it having any instant affect. It might depend on which part of the brain is perferated. As the article mentioned, kind of like a lobotomy doesn't (necessarily) kill a human.

I'm not saying the above is true or not, but it might be.