If you go to "Find" at the top of the thread, and use the search feature, you will find the subject has been discussed to the point of nausea. Whatever comment you are looking for should be there already.

Sorry, I just got the email.

Keith

I took your advice, found the link, and, Good Lord, I did not know of the controversy. I should keep up with the forum prior to posting anything. Again, I appologize.

Keith

quote:

Originally posted by KWTX:
I took your advice, found the link, and, Good Lord, I did not know of the controversy. I should keep up with the forum prior to posting anything. Again, I appologize.

Keith

No apology necessary!!! I haven't hunted with him, nor watched/purchased his videos. I do believe he has been well discussed in the past. Kinda like green olives, you either like him or not, little middle ground.

There's a current discussion on nitroexpress right now about it....

vomit...

I can't help but wonder about how often this thread comes up. Could it be a Sullivan marketing strategy?

465H&H

The frequency of the MS topic on dangerous game discussion forums is a result of the immense popularity of his films (much to the chagrin of his detractors). There are a lot of people who see one of his videos and want to know what other hunters think of him. So given the near universality of internet use these days, those interested naturally seek out dangerous game discussion forums, which is how I found this one. I think few would deny Mark Sullivan's expert ability to market his products, though I seriously doubt he uses this forum as part of his strategy.

Serval!
I notice that this is your first post. I wonder what I and others should make of that!

465H&H

Ah, well! I guess because I had the temerity to make my first post in regard to Mark Sullivan and it was not an invective of volcanic proportions against the man I should be held in automatic suspicion in the way one might be wary of someone who is assumed to be an anarchist, a satanist, an agent of the F.B.I., a Mormon or some other Illuminatus. My post was not intended as an attack against you. It was inteded to lend a bit of rationality to a topic that usually contains very little of it. Make of it what you wish! If you think this post is bad, check out my second posting which is under the topic of what effect AIDS will have in Africa. I am not someone who has a great deal of regard for political correctness or whatever beliefs that are held to be absolute truth by majority opinion (even among groups of people who regard themselves as "conservative as you can get" - which is often not very conservative these days).

He is a great showman...Just like PT Barnum...If you like having him shoot your animals, that is fine... "A sucker was born every minute...", PT Barnum..

Mike

He is a showman, no doubt about that. He's out to make money, sure. I do find his films to be quite entertaining, and the controversial nature adds a little bit to the allure, I'll admit. You may think the people who hunt with him are suckers because he sometimes takes a shot or two at their amimals as they are charging or fleeing, but I don't think that the people who watch and enjoy his films are suckers - they're getting exactly what they want, which is entertainment.
P.S.- The birthrate has increased enormously since Barnum's time.

Serval: I too am new here, reading thru old posts I've already formed the opinion the majority of regular posters here are a parinoid lot!
You posts are a reflection of a well spoken/read man. Refreshing!

I always thought it was polite, when new to a group, to talk softly, avoid controverses for a while, and wait with the name calling till after the first joint hangover.

Frans

Franz if being polite as you put it means being a "yes man" sorry, I like Serval am not interested in absolute truth by majority opinion.
One of the nice things about free forums is being able to post one's own opinions. This is not middle school here where one is expected to fall in line with the pecking order. "Cats"

quote:

You may think the people who hunt with him are suckers because he sometimes takes a shot or two at their amimals as they are charging or fleeing, but I don't think that the people who watch and enjoy his films are suckers - they're getting exactly what they want, which is entertainment.

I am going to assume you have not been to africa.

Yes i am there for entertainment, mine, not the infamous MS. when i am paying daily rates and trophy fees that go into the tens of thousands of dollars, it is only natural to get upset when somebody else is pulling the trigger on my check book.

I have seen all of his videos and they are for entertainment purposes only. He makes good tape, but it is very controversial especially for people who really take african hunting serious. JJ

AC and Judy, now serval and cats? Sho be a coincidence, hmmmmmm.

I know not this Sullivan man,but for folk who may never take such hunts,these videos give great insight into the heat of the moment.I appreciate it regardless of whos pulling the trigger or why. So he promotes himself,dont tell me most of us dont have our own agenda in life.Remember if the pro guide always waited for the client to finish the job,neither of them may be left alive to tell the story.

"You know you can now fly to the summit of Everest in a B3 Eurocopter. There is more than one way to the top of a mountain,but the view is all the same when you get there."

Hey Mike, what's so damn funneeeee, huh????

woodjack,

I think it's more the point that the sheer number of charges he catches on tape makes people wonder about their legitimacy. It also gives people the wrong idea that every buffalo charges and must be put down at the last moment by the PH. Most PH's who are following a wounded dangerous animal place a finishing shot as soon as a good shot presents itself, they don't wait until it charges, so it can choose how it wants to die.

I firmly disagree with making animals suffer unduly in the interest of broadcast television and tips.

it's not really about the view it's about the journey, otherwise we would just all buy our mounts off ebay. JJ

Bwanajcj,
To what degree do you think an animal should suffer? to the point where you get your level of satisfaction it seems. With Sullivan he takes it a little further ,then others not as far as you by choosing not to shoot the animal at all,and just photograph it.
So you justify your own cause to what ever moral level that suits you at the time,as do others either side of your standards.

Getting to Everest by Chopper is a journey ,just not on foot,as you may be conditioned to seeing. Eurocopter,carried out much work and planning to develop rotorblade/turbine technology,& pilot skill.That is a human challenge in itself.
It is still conquering Everest but in a different way.
It still involves human spirit,adventure,risk,satisfaction, just not in away that you may be used to or understand.
Getting onto the summit is not just a matter of cranking her over and zipping to the top.It requires a very specialised planning/approach by the pilot according to varying and often severe conditions, all this I might add on the outer limits of the machines capability.The human managed all these mental,mechanical,natural variable factors and got the job done.


Maybeyou should be true to your own view,give up Boeing747s from continent to continent,Shuttles from airport to Safari camp,binoculars,modern rifles,2way,and landrovers that take you too within 200yds of the animal. Then Build yourself a reed raft,buy yourself a mule and handfull of native spears,and go at it from there.It wiil be like slooging it up the mountain with the rest of themThen see how much you like the Journey,or discover how hypocritical you may be.You may also discover that life has many varied challenges. one of them being to think outside the square.
I never claimed it was just about the view,just that you can choose your method of journey,and how you arrive at your destination to appreciate the view.

I dont think it is your shinny metal ass that is the problem,more so the metal plate in your head.

475 and Mike: Did I miss something? Does the fact that I have my own opinions humor you? Yes I am new to this site and have been posting on different topics but isn't that why one comes to AR to begin with?

Woodjack don't get so worked up,
Take the time to borrow one of his videos and if you are a real hunter you will see.
I had the oppurtunity in zim to meet some of the guys that had filmed for Mark, and they were claiming that anmals were intentionally shot poorly and then left sick to incite charges, some animals were also relentlessly pursued to where charges were forced. The point of hunting is to cleanly take a trophy, not to punish it first in the interest of selling videos. Whether these accusations are true or not from the tapes they certainly appear to be, no other PH on earth has had as many charges as MS.

Any PH will tell you the last thing he wants is a wounded animal, or a charge. when a client fires the animal should die.

Point conceded on the heli ride to everest, But,IHMO Climbing mountains is about the climb.

The part about my shiny metal ass is on all my posts it is my sign off as you can see below.

One of the main points of hunting ethics is making a clean kill. Sometimes shit happens, and most of us have one time or another taken a shot that was a bit too uncertain, but if a hunter behaves in a way that makes me suspect that he shoots not to kill but to provoke a charge he better be prepared to take som flogging and he would not be welcome on my land. My views of him would not be improved if it could be suspected that he had a comercial interest in these charges.

Regards,
Martin

marterious,

my sentiments exactly.

I'm just going to say this:

I'm the only client on AR, to my knowlege, who has hunted with MS, and I'm hunting again with him this season. I've only hunted straight-up with Mark, and that means no charges for the camera, etc. That's the only way I will hunt with him this season as well, or ever. If there's a legit charge, so be it, we'll deal with it, but every effort will be made to get the buff on the ground ASAP and keep him there. Since I'm paying the bill, I'm the man who calls the shots on this stuff.

Mark is a very good friend of mine, a truly great PH, and he has been a friend for nearly a dozen years. The Sullivan you THINK you might know from the videos is NOT the same Sullivan you hunt with, and sadly, the videos don't do justice to the man, not by any stretch of the imagination. To this day, he's the single-best PH I've ever been in the bush with, he has a long list of repeat clients, and he stays booked every year for the full season, and well into the next couple of seasons. He gets great trophies, always, for his clients, and he has the best work ethic of any professional hunting guide I've ever been out with anywhere, and that takes in a lot of territory.

AD

allen,
I'm not trying to knock him and i'm glad you chimed in being someone who has acctually hunted with him.
I'm sure you are correct the videos don't do him justice, but when used as a marketing tool as he does it gives people a bad impression of his ethics.
I'm sure he is a great PH probably a lot of fun to hunt with. Even with what i've heard about him, given the oppurtunity i would hunt with him, but i would ask for no cameras. people tend to act with a lot of bravado and pomp when the reels start to roll.

Allen,
I like the way you stand up for MS as a PH and a friend. Further, I will not for a moment question that he provides a very serious hunting for you, in the way you describe. But I have to say that should I produce hunting videos, which I don't, I should like my attitude to hunting to be reflected in them, and would regard it as a great fault if the viewer might suspect that I was an unethical hunter.

Regards,
Martin

marterious,

Again, my sentiments exactly.

I hear what you guys are saying, and you won't get any argument out of me on those points.

AD

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
I hear what you guys are saying, and you won't get any argument out of me on those points.

AD

Allen,
It was certainly not my intention to start an argument with you.

On a more general note, I feel the horse have got its monthly beating by now; for being dead it starts kicking rather more than expected...

Regards,
Martin

quote:

Originally posted by 475Guy:
Hey Mike, what's so damn funneeeee, huh????

Not laughing at you or your comment. I just find it amusing that two of our newer members have names in the same family - serval, and cats-and are mildly stirring the pot so early in their tenure here. Not unlike a couple of "friends" we used to have here. I do believe you are spot on with your observation of them.

You can change your name, change your ISP and even take acne medicine, but your syntax, grammar and peronality disorders will always come shining through
lawndart

Mike

475-
Tsch! There are a few people who disagree with you and draw the same conclusions - so they must be the same person in disguise?!
bwanajcj-
"I am going to assume you have not been to Africa."
That is the biggest non sequitur! I suppose it would do something for my "shtreet cred" to have lived in Tanzania for several years, but does never having been to Africa mean that I nor anyone else cannot legitimately offer a critical opinion about hunting ehics or an opinion about some hunting films on the African hunting forum?
Mark Sullivan states numerous times in his videos and in his book that a professional hunter can hunt buffalo for decades and never have a charge if his policy is constant avoidance. He intentionally invades the buffalo's space in order to provoke a charge. He says this over and over. So to those of you who are always questioning how it happens that he's getting all those charges there is certainly no mystery. What most of you may have a problem with is whether that practice is legitimate.

OK Im slow at times but I do eventually catch on. No I'm not Serval, my writing skills aren't as good as his. But honored some of you escalate me to his level.
Heck I'm so green I didn't even know a Seval was a cat.

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
You can change your name, change your ISP and even take acne medicine, but your syntax, grammar and peronality disorders will always come shining through
lawndart

Amen brother!!!!

After having seen all of his films I can see absolutely no evidence that Sullivan nor any of his clients intentionally gut shoot an animal. Most animals on the films are taken quite cleanly, some are shot several times because they are very tough.
Woodjack-
"To what degree do you think an animal should suffer?"
This is what really gets me about these MS haters. It's just laughable that these same guys go to Africa TO SHOOT AND KILL ANIMALS, and when the occasional critter runs off wounded, the guy lets it loll around in agony for an hour while it's bleeding to death. But then they get on an internet discussion forum and parade around on their moral high horse because there's some guy out there who finishes his wounded animals off in a manner that is different from theirs. Oddly enough, the way he does it, by immediately pursuing the animal and getting it to charge, the animal dies sooner.
jcj-
"... if you are a real hunter you will see."
So anyone who has seen his videos and doesn't get his tutu all in a sticky bunch isn't a "real hunter"? Sounds like those charges of "you're not a real Christian..." As far as the info from former cameramen and other professional hunters regarding Sullivan, I would take that with some measure of caution. I have a feeling they are just seeking to defame. Somehow you guys continually discount the one guy on this forum who has a legitimate opinion, Allen Day. He and another guy on this forum WHO HAVE ACTUALLY HUNTED WITH MARK have experiences and opinions completely at odds with his detractors WHO HAVE NEVER EVEN MET HIM. Detractors draw their conclusions from seeing a video or two and giving credibility to a seemingly endless stream of rumors (most of these atrocity stories being absolutely absurd). I'm not saying that you have to know the guy personally to have any opinion, but information from those who have hunted with him carries a hell of a lot more credibility than those who just want something to bitch and complain about.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanahile:

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
You can change your name, change your ISP and even take acne medicine, but your syntax, grammar and peronality disorders will always come shining through
lawndart

Amen brother!!!!

I see this is an almost universally held belief amongst you. Those who stand against this anti-Mark Sullivan moral majority must really be one chameleon-like demon lurking in your midst.