Gentlemen,

I'd like to offer a bit of my personal perspective on this subject, at what is no doubt considerable risk. However, some clarification is required. First, we have never stated that the 45-70 is inherently superior to the bigger, more powerful calibers typically used to take the heaviest game. Indeed, the bigger magnum calibers do have greater ballistic potential, no question about it. However, potential unrealized is potential lost. You folks with your big 458s and such have guns with greater potential for deep penetration, IF they are properly loaded. However, modern popular ballistics invariably directs people to drive bullets faster in order to achieve more power. If instead, greater power was achieved by simply increasing bullet weight instead of driving standard weight bullets to higher speed, the big magnums would certainly be king of mountain with regards to penetration. No doubt about it. This brings me to a VERY important point. Contrary to popular opinion, the best velocity for deep penetration is NOT the highest speed that can be achieved with standard weight bullets. Anyone one of you good folks can demonstrate this for yourselves by simply taking one of your 458s and comparing the penetration achieved at full magnum speeds and at speeds of about 1500-fps with the same bullet. You will invariably find that the slower bullet penetrates deeper, even though it is less powerful. Does this mean that the 45-70 is superior to the bigger calibers? No, of course it doesn't. But it does demonstrate that for really deep penetration, high speed is not only problematic, it is an impediment. If someone would load a something like a 650-grainer or 700-grainer at about 1500-fps from the big magnums, they would see penetration like they have never seen before. And this speaks well of the potential of the big magnums.

A couple of summers ago, no less of an authority than John Linebaugh demonstrated this for all to see at his annual seminar. He compared the 458 Winchester Magnum with 500-grain solids, the 500 Nitro Express with 570-grain solids, and our 540-grain 45-70 Hammerhead for penetration depth. As was measured for all to see, the 458 produced 47-inches of penetration, the 500 Nitro Express produced 48-inches of penetration, and our 540-grainer for the 45-70 produced 55-inches of penetration. These results parallel our testing results. And our 540-grainer is super-blunt with a meplat only one tenth of an inch less than bore diameter. The 458 and 500 were using roundnose solids, clearly a less lethal front end design. If anyone doubts the voracity of these comments, by all means give John Linebaugh, or John Taffin a call. They will certainly varify this.

What all this should tell us is that contrary to what seems to be the natural conclusion, the faster the bullet strikes, the faster the bullet stops. Again, any one of you fine people can run this test for yourselves. It's a lot more informative than free-wheeling speculation.

The 45-70 does everything we say it does, not because it is inherently superior, but because it is incapable of achieving the kind of high speed with heavy bullets that invariably results in reduced penetration.

This is all pretty simple stuff, and can be put to the test with just some common sense testing that any of you can do. So rather than beating each other up, perhaps you serious riflemen should consider the possibility that the industry has tended to head in the wrong direction with regards to penetration by driving bullets ever faster. If the 45-70 was capable of really high velocity with heavy bullets, it wouldn't do nearly as well as it does.

I hope I haven't offended anyone with this, but I do believe that somehow or other the industry has short-changed the shooters of the big magnums by insisting on ever higher speeds, which of course produces very impressive kinetic energy figures, which stimulates sales, but clearly tends to reduce penetration potential.

I appreciate all the interest in our ammo, and thank you all for this opportunity to express my point of view.

Best regards, Randy Garrett
Garrett Cartridges, Inc.

With all do respect Randy, you forgot one aspect of the 45-70 it's ILLEGAL to shoot Cape Buffalo with it.

Actually, that post did not enlighten me as much as I had hoped, since there was no direct comparison made of the 45-70 with cast bullets against more traditional dangerous game loads. I hope you will not mind a few direct questions:

1. If the hammerhead cast bullets are adequate for thick skinned game, why do you recommend using the Speer AGS solids instead?

2. The 458 win achieved a reputation as a lousy penetrator when it pushed a 500 grain bullet at 1900 fps, while the 458 lott achieved a great reputation as a penetrator pusing a 500 grain bullet at 2300 fps. That field experience is inconsistent with your test medium results using the 45-70 at a mere 1500 fps. Could your test medium be responsible for the unusual results?

3. At least one AR forumite who recently shot a bison with your hammerheads out of a 45-70 said:

[QUOTE:]I shot the bull twice...as the bull was still on his feet, I decided to shoot it again through the thick area in the front half of the shoulder. I was interested to see what the Garrett bullets would do when it encountered heavy bone and very dense muscle mass.

The second bullet entered, but did not exit the front shoulder. [/QUOTE]

http://www.serveroptions.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=002797;p=1

A bison is not nearly as tough as a cape buffalo, yet the performance of cast bullets in that instance was clearly disappointing. What do you think happened?

4. There is clearly a need for non-traditional dangerous game ammo. Have you considered offering factory loads in true dangerous game cartridges (not the 45-70) with GS Custom flat nose copper solids or their kin?

Randy,
You are a brave fellow, and I believe that your product would take a nyati cleanly. I don't believe it's better than a 458/470/500 whizbang.

thanks for posting
jeffe

500grain,

I'll try to answer your questions, but please understand that I really don't have the time required to continually pound away on the keyboard, as my business keeps me going full time almost everyday. So this is likely my last posting. And no disrespect is intended by that.

1) The reason to offer a tungsten solid is to offer a stronger bullet, simple as that. Just as someone else might go from a steel jacketed solid to a tungsten solid or monolithic solid. I haven't made that decision due to obvious shortcomings in our SuperHardCasd Hammerheads, but because like everyone else I am always looking for ways to make things better. And given the staggering cost of shooting the Big Six or Cape buffalo or whatever, I prefer to leave nothing on the table. If there was something better than the tungsten solid I would probably offer it. Not because tungsten solids are crap, but because I want to offer the best quality possible. People are always looking for improvements, and it's up to builder to try to satisfy that desire.

2) As to the legitamacy of of our various test mediums, all I can say is that the results are consistent even as we go from one medium to another. Bullets that win the penetration contest in wet newspaper also win the test in tougher materials. Our testing includes a great number of calibers, and I've seen nothing to make me suspect that the testing is faulty. If I had, I certainly wouldn't want to stake my reputation on a deception.

3) As to the gentleman's bison, I don't know I wasn't there. But the report is unusual to say the least. It is no exaggeration that a great many buffalo have fallen to our Hammerheads, and the reports have been overwhelmingly positive. But of course that doesn't mean that a failure couldn't occur. Certainly we have all seen examples of the biggest calibers failing to satisfy on occasion, even though they usually do fine. I don't think anyone can expect every occasion to result in perfect results, no matter how powerful the caliber. If enough heavy game gets shot, there are always going to be some that are more impressive than others. We've all seen videos of big Cape buffalos taking tremendous punishment from huge calibers, and they don't always go do quickly. That's just the nature of the beast.

4) Actually I would like to offer something for the bigger calibers, as I do believe that they are capable of much more than they generally achieve. However, in all candor, we are a small family business kept extremely busy just building for the 44 Magnum and 45-70. Perhaps if we hadn't taken the custom approach which is so darn labor-intensive I could offer more calibers. And no doubt make more money! But time just doesn't allow for a small family business to provide huge quantities of production. I wish it did!

As to what constitutes a true dangerous game caliber, well, that's obviously highly contentious. However, the way our Hammerheads almost always anchor heavy game, it is pretty hard to make the case that they are not a good choice. I think anyone who takes the time to fairly evaluate the testomonials of our customers would have to conclude the the ammo gets the job done, as well and as reliably as the bigger calibers. If that weren't the case, I'd be happy to just recommend the stuff for heavy North American game. After all, that is where most of it goes anyway.

I just happen to believe, actually I can say that I know, that there are always many ways to accomplish a task, and some are unconventional. But that doesn't mean they are illigitimate. When you guys go out there with your big guns and shoot heavy game, I think that's terrific. I would just ask that others approach this subject with an open mind, which isn't necessarily natural unless one has seen what can be achieved with proper hard-cast bullet ammo from the 45-70. I know the ballistics don't appear impressive, but the field experience of our customers are very impressive indeed. Hey, if this stuff didn't work I'd go back into law enforcement or do something else. I build this ammo because I believe in it, not because I just want to make some money, or perpetrate some misinformation.

Well if I don't get back to work, I'll have some customers waiting too long for their ammo! I hope this has been of some help in answering your questions. I've given it my best shot.

Thanks for your interest big guy, and good hunting!

Best regards, Randy Garrett

Well, regardless of how his bullets work or not, the guy's got major balls just showing his face here, sallying forth amongst the nonbelievers. For this alone, he has my respect.

Bravo, Randy.

Russ

Randy

I also say "Good Show".

A proslytizer amongst the infidels.

Don't forget to duck though.

Mr. Garrett,

Thank you for taking the time to add your two cents to this seemingly-endless debate. I have a lot of respect for you and your business methods, and also for the fact that you are willing to state your points clearly, and in the face of a lot of criticism.

Joel Slate
Slate & Associates, LLC
www.slatesafaris.com

7mm Rem Mag Page www.slatesafaris.com/7mm.htm

Randy,

Welcome to the forum.

Gentlemen,

Aren't we taking this matter of the 45-70 being illegal a bit too far?

How do we know how many animals are taken every year with rifles that do not meet the legal requirements?

I am sure it is more than any of us imagines.

We were looking at this discussion here in our workshop, and someone came up with the idea that he will be happy standing next to someone with experience shoot a buffalo with a 308 Winchester, and would refuse to stand next to another person using a 460 Weatherby!

I will have no hesitation in shooting a buffalo with the 45-70.

Mr. Garrett
I thank you for being yourself and for producing the kind of cartridges that I can and have staked my life on. There effectivness allowed me to not only take the African Dangerous Game Big Six but about another 40 or 50 other great African animals along the way that now grace my trophy room. My safaris proved to me that your 45-70 540gr and 420gr Hammerhead cartridges could take ANYTHING walking this earth with authority and in a quick and humane manner.
Hell, tell the likes of many many "old" African hunters like the great Mr. Lake that his 303cal rifle could not kill the 100's of Elephants, Rhinos, Hippos, Lions, and yes indeed Cape Buffalos that he killed and he would laugh you out of Africa. Did anyone ever hear of the 7mm Mauser and how many Elephants and other African animals that it has dropped?
Aside from all of that, I have seen just how dam effectively your Hammerhead cartridges are and exactly what they are capable of and I for one cannot wait to get my hands on your new 500gr Exiter cartridges! PLEASE, PLEASE don't ever stop making your ammo or trying to improve it!
Vincent R. Lupo

Randy,

Thank you for your post and for being a gentleman under the circumstances.

Joe

Randy, I appreciate your comments on the subject. Thank you and welcome to the forums.

To anyone interested, FWIW, I shot a bison 3 times with a 375 H&H and 300gr Swift A-frames. Two in the shoulder, one through the ribs. Only the shot through the ribs made it through. Bison are big animals. I highly doubt they are any easier to penetrate than a cape buffalo. I would even go so far as dare guess that the only real difference is their attitude after being hit. But I have not shot a cape buffalo, so you can take that FWIW.

Re: Randy Garrett's reasoning for switching to the tungsten solids, I don't really see how it implies that the Hammerheads are less than worthy. It is possible that one thing be great and yet another be greater. Examples that pop into my simple mind are "36-24-36" vs "38D-24-36", or "Boston cream filled donut with icing" vs "Boston cream filled donut with icing and sprinkles".

Canuck

HI,

I have talk to MR.Garrett on the phone and he has been nothing but a total gentleman and very forcoming with anything to due with his ammo and its abilities.I fine this topic which I have long been arguing about for some time has little to due with HC ammo but has to due with lever action. The thought of using a lever action for some on this forum is very disturbing to them and that in a nut shell seems to be the problem.The HC issue is just something many here want to throw in just to vindicate they great dislike with the lever and the ammo it may use. This is my opinion, Thanks,Kev

Let's talk about history a bit.

In the second half of the 1800's, black powder express cartridges were used, such as the .500 BPE and .577 BPE. Those cartridges pushed a cast lead bullet in the range of 1300 to 1500 fps. The 45-70 with Garrett hammerheads fits right into this category.

The penetration of BPE cartridges was abysmally poor, hence the development of the nitro express cartridges (470 NE, 450 NE, 500 NE). Penetration was markedly improved due to velocity increase, now 2150 fps, and use of full metal jacketed bullets.

Even later, during the bolt gun era velocities began moving up again, with the 416 rigby pushing its slug at 2400 fps. Once again, penetration improved. Later still, the monolithic solid of various optimized shapes was developed to rectify the failings of FMJ bullets.

Why are we to believe that after more than 100 years of ballistics and bullet improvements, suddenly a cast lead bullet at 1500 fps is the best of all worlds?

I call BULLSHIT.

As for the supposed "penetration tests", it is well known that wet newspaper is an inconsistent and unreliable test medium. Sometimes it packs up in front of a bullet and the penetration is poor, and sometimes it moves out of the way of the bullet, resulting in good penetration.

To all,

I feel that I need to point out that:

The BP express cartridges used bullets of lighter weight and lower sectional density to achieve those "startling for the times" velocities. As pointed out by Ross Seyfried, the .45 was the .270 of the time.

The Garrett cartridges apparently hit 1550-1850 fps depending on load (540 and 420 gr. Hammerheads, respectively) and platform. Further, the bullet weights are not limited to the Express weights (e.g. 300-350 grains in .45). Thus it appears to me that no one has been talking about returning to BP Express cartridge performance. (My original, unedited post was based on the 420-GR SUPER-HARD-CAST GAS-CHECKED HAMMERHEAD AT 1850-FPS. I did get the velocity a bit wrong citing 1800-2000 fps which should have been 1800-1900 fps). I understand that the .458 Winchester gets an actual 1900 fps from factory ammo out of many guns. Is this incorrect?

I see no benefit in violating game laws. However, I must note that in many countries (including the U.S.) game laws are written by the ignorant, politicized by the power-hungry, and corrupted by the intolerant. It sometimes seems that any correlation with game management concerns or logic is merely coincidental.

I have not hunted buffalo but I have hunted black bear and hogs. Regardless of the game hunted, it seems necessary to me to have an adequate weapon when one closes to within 2 seconds of close intimate contact with something or someone who really wants to hurt you. In the end (maybe literally "the end" sometimes) it is the hunter/shooter/user who makes the decision and lives with the results.

All edited comments are in bold.

I own a TC Contender 24" .45-70 which is held to Trapdoor pressures and would not think of using it on a "buff".

I am neither an advocate nor sympathizer of the .45-70 cartridge. I am simply a shooter who reasons. I AM an advocate for the use of cartridge/platform combinations that can effectively deal with the game being hunted.

Comparing .577 BPE to the .45-70 as currently loaded seems illogical. If you were to show that the SD of the 420 Hammerhead (used only as an example) was comparable to the the bullets mentioned and that the material used was comparable then you might have a substantive argument.

I personally resent being lumped together with "others" as if we all hold the same opinion on all points or that I am representative of somebody else. However, that seems to be de riguer here as statements are attributed willy nilly to previous posters and their comments are painted with the broad brush and inaccurately depicted in any way possible.

Clearly, some of those on both sides of the argument (debate inappropriately dignifies this "discussion") are not concerned with logic or facts.

While I may have been sucked into this discussion for this one post (after resisting temptation while reading over 2 months of posts on the subject), I won't participate any longer. There just isn't any point to it for it is as if I've been transported back to HS and the Ford vs. Chevy fights. To heck with that, I'm here to learn.

[ 12-13-2002, 23:41: Message edited by: Hobie ]

/

Hobie,

the 577 BPE fired a 650 grain bullet at 1850 fps. Penetration was not good, hence the 577 NE pusing a 750 grain FMJ at 2050 fps.

Yet the 45-70 is not even close. The velocity of the supposed DG 540 grain lead bullet is 1550 fps, not 1800-2200 fps as you mentioned.

500grains...Though I am not a 45-70 sympathizer, The 577BPE was a small game gun shooting soft lead round noses. It works/had worked on game under say 700 lbs. Many professionals carried this cartridge along with a 4 or 8 bore, as they did with useing 20,16,12,and 10 bores as small game guns. The reason the 577 N.E replaced the 4 and 8 bores as large game guns, was the higher velo, reduced frontal diameter, better sd and jacket shielding resulted in better penetration. The 577 BPE lost out to being a small game gun for the same reasons, only from other higher velocity smaller bores.

I must agree with Mr. Garrett. When I was shooting M2s in the service we noticed that the penetration capability of the armor piercing ammunition was approximately 1 foot of reinforced concrete at 100 meters and 1 meter of reinforced concrete at 1600 meters. Obviously, the penetration increased with decreased bullet velocity. This seems to be exactly what Mr. Garrett has seen with the 45-70.

My 2 bore rifle is the poster child for heavy slow bullet and incredible penetration. 3500 grain ball at 1150 fps! It will penetrate like there is no tomorrow!

2 bore

500grains, did you ever consider that those old blackpowder rounds maybe were using rather soft lead for their bullets?

Even setting bullet hardness aside for the moment:

SD of a .577 650 is .279

SD of a .577 750 is .328

SD of a .458 540 is .367

I have met Randy and used his ammo when I was the manager of the Bear Damage control program for the WFPA in Washington state. He is a good guy making a good product. I did all I could to beg him for bullets not loaded in shells for my 44 mag. I am a handloader and wanted to load the bullets myself. He would never part with unloaded bullets though! I still have about 25 rounds of the original test box of loaded ammo he gave me for the Magazine review I did in the mid late 80's.

Not until the Lee factory crimp die came out was there a crimp like he had for his ammo. I have great respect for Randy to have been making a living from loading custom ammo for all these years. He did not develope the reputation he has by making people angry or dissapointing them with his product.

I'm not even going to get into the debate here regarding 45/70's for the cape buffalo. If I get a client that wants to use a 45/70 on a Cape Buffalo hunt with me, I'll take him. Heck we will take handgun and archery too!

I would like to comment on just one thing regarding the bison. I have shot quite a few Buffalo and North American Bison. I shoot plenty for a man that raises them here near my home. He butchers quite a few each year to sell the meat.

The Cape Buffalo is a far more likely animal to charge and give a fight then the bison. However as far as penetration and body mass the Bison is often 30% (or more)bigger in body weight.

A big VERY big Cape buffalo will go 1300-1400 pounds where a big bull Bison will go over 2000 pounds without a problem. We have shot some 2200lbs just to be butcherd, not for a trophy hunt! Typically the biggest old bison bulls are what sport hunters are looking for. These will go easily 2000 pounds or more.

A cape buffalo with big bosses and wide horns may have the trophy head but only have a 1200 pound body! So to compare the penetration between the two would be like comparing the penetration between the white rhino and the black rhino. The black is much smaller but has a more difficult personality to deal with.

Glad to see you visit Randy.

First off let me say Mr. Garrett is a silver tounge fellow indeed. He is polite, and very through in his approach to a subject dear to his heart, and bank account! He has said nothing in his latest two posts here, that isn't true, as far as it goes. There in lies the problem!

He has stated that his HC bullet has out penetrated larger calibers,and/or faster bullets of the same weight. This is most likely true as well. What he fails to make you aware of is, there is a point in velocity where the velocity becomes a deterent to deep penetration, but that point is NOT at 1500 fps. Many tests have been done over the years that reveal a point at about 2400 fps at which the same bullet which penetrates properly at less spead generally around 2150 to 2250 fps, begins to fail in the penetration tests. What Mr. Garrett fails to tell you is, his bullet would not hold together hitting a bone at 2250 fps,a point that is moot, in any case, because he can't get 2250 fps with his bullet out of a 45-70 case! What he does have is, the proper shape, and that would opperate better than a RN at 2250, or 2400 fps for that matter. In my estimation this is all smoke and mirrors, and the only product he has for his $150 per 20 round box is, his cast bullets, at a cost of about $0.03 each. The brass, primers, and powder is available to anyone who has $25 in his pocket. His bullet anyone can cast for himself, and anyone who can't get 1500 fps out of a 45-70 is not worth crap as a handloader!

I quote Mr. Garrett: "First, we have never stated that the 45-70 is inherently superior to the bigger, more powerful calibers typically used to take the heaviest game. Indeed, the bigger magnum calibers have more ballistic potentual, no question about it!"

He is right, and it is only those who want to hear something else that make that claim, not Mr. Garrett, but he certainly doesn't discourage such claims by others.

He further goes on to say [/B] "However,potentual, unrealized, is potentual lost. You folks with your big 458s , and such, have guns with greater potentual for deep penetration, if properly loaded. However,modern ballistics dirrects people to drive bullets faster to achieve more power."

The quote above is true as well, but it pertains to things like the 460 Wby Mag where the extra velocity is wasted along with the extra powder, and recoil, and actually penetrates less than a 500 gr .458 dia solid pushed at 2350fps just under the magic 2400 fps breaking point! It has nothing to do with a 540 gr bullet pushed at 1500 fps out of a 45-70, and he very carefully does not say it does. He doesn't have to, the 45-70 folks will say it for him.

It makes absolutely no difference what Mr. Garrett, or anyone else says about the 45-70, it is not, nor will it ever be, a suitable round for cape buffalo. It will kill them, but it certainly is not the best choice, for that purpose, and like pistols, bows, and spears, which have all killed Cape Buffalo, it is simply a stunt to use it for that purpose, nothing more! Besides, we owe something to the Buffalo, to make the quickest, cleanest kill possible when we hunt him, and anything less is not acceptable in my view!

I am just going to make one post on this matter, as I find it to be an excercise in futility. I say if someone wants to use any caliber they want, and the PH authorizes the use of said caliber, and THEY are willing to take the risk. Shut the f__k up and let em. There is risk in using any firearm to take dangerous game. I would rather have a skilled hunter take a good shot with a 45-70 or other round, as a dumbass that knows everything there is to know about hunting cape buffalo, but just has not had the time to do it, except on a computer, but has that fine 458win that scares the crap out of him, only to hit it in the ass. But it is really easy to be an expert in a chair. I have heard nobody hear say damnit about the use of Bow and arrow, or handgun, yet these are used very often to take dangerous game. To say a 45-70 is not as lethal as a bow and arrow, and or handgun, is stupid.

PS I find it in poor taste to have people come on this forum such as Mr. Garrett, and make it a point to piss him off, so that he will not want to come back. He has enough credential's to say what he believes, and I would say he knows more about his bullet's performance than 100% of the people
that question him. But these are the same people that wonder why Professional's in the gun industry do not like to stay on forums. It simply is not worth the hassle to them..

Leec,

Get off your high horse.....

urdubob

Lee,

I agree with you. Glad to see you around.

I can kill a Buffalo with a 45-70, I have killed Buffalo with a 8x57, 7x57 and a 308...

I have looked that black bull in the eye when his eyes are big white and red rimmed the size of tennis balls, that happens in a charge...I DO NOT WANT TO STAND A CHARGE WITH A 45-70...Anyone that does is in trouble. I want my 450-400-3" at 2150 as a minimum, but being a double makes up for that. my 404 Jeffersy or 416 Rem works OK and has served me and others well in charges but if I had a 900 N.E. I would be as happy as a fly in s--t under those circumstances...

When Mr. Garret can show me a 45 cal. 500 gr. bullet at 2000 FPS or a 400 gr. 40 cal at 2000 FPS then I will own one because that is where Buffalo rifles start and the same finish at about 2400 or 2500 max. beyond 2500 is detremental. Now with the advent of monolithics the face of things may or may not be changing, I'm willing to wait and see....

Anyone that wants to use a 45-70 on buff should do it and that suits me fine, but the truth is apparant and comes from common since IMHO.....you have a PH to back up the shot, but I like my PH's too much to put them in that position. I know a few who have used the 45-70 on buff but just once. that tells me they must have decided it was not in their best interrest and they were performing a stunt.

I don't doubt the penitration, but there is more to it than penitration least we could just use a sword or speer on them.I find the subject rather boring, and will agree to each his own when chosing a caliber..

I respect Mr. Garret but I don't altogether agree with him. I would have a lot more confidence in him if he just said his rifles were intended for Bear, Moose, Leopard, etc. and those animals the 45-70 is more suited for. I do feel he is pushing the string on its capabilities...

Ray,

This is a hypothetical event.

If a person were to approach you, and wish to hunt Cape Buffalo, with absolutely no hunting experience, what gun would you put in their hands? Let's entertain the thought that they at least could shoot, and shoot very well. Money would not be a constraint. PH and staff would be be the only concern the client would have to consider. The client's own saftey would be an ego factor that only he could live with.

What gun, what load, and what type of PH should he go with?

Roger QSL

I won't answer for Ray, I'm sure he will give an opinion, but as a PH I will tell you my opinion would be to have them bring a 375HH with 300 grain bullets and a good scope with about a 1.5-2 or so bottom end and a 5-8 power top end scope. No bigger then 40mm OBJ. This kind of rifle has plenty of power and it's very easy to shoot and get comfortable with during practice shooting. I doubt there would be a better all around choice for the situation you asked about.

MacD37,

I guess I will make another post. Just to clarify
You know what they say about assume. You assume that because I do not have more than 39 posts I do not know who is who. I have been on this forum longer than 99% of the people now on..If you do not believe me ask Saeed.He can go back in the records and verify. I went by the name Santa Claus. I started watching this forum before there were 50 people registered TOTAL, and I think I was in the 200's when I first registered.I read it everyday, It was sometime around april 96. So I know who exactly is coming here,and unless I have something to say I keep my mouth shut,and you have no idea who I am and what credentials I carry either. I never said it was the best caliber, would it be my first choice.no. But if was sitting there, and there was a buffalo to kill, away we go. but I do not care what other people use, and if the PH ok's it then thats the end of it, nor would I gives a rats about what someone sitting at a computer has to say about it.I simply do not care what someone uses legal or not, that will be up to him to deal with the consequences.It has no impact on me. I have enough to worry about, other than what people are doing, or using. You give me the number of clients killed, or wounded by Mr. Garrets suggestion, then we have something to talk about, other than that it is pure armchair PHing. If Mr. Garrett had made some bad bullets, and or gave wrong instruction it would be all over the place. I certainly have not heard one bad report from his ammo. I have never used it, but I cruise forums enough to know what is considered good, and what is not, and his stuff is highly recommended. Out of the combined 200yrs of buffalo hunting here that you state, that is on these forums. You will find 95% will say it is ok, as long as you have a backup, which they always do. There are damn few of you guys bitchin, and whining. The rest sit back, and chuckle. I think it is great that there are people around to look into someone elses business, and tell them exactly what should be done,and how They should do it, and it is always perfect advice. I do not know how someone could possibly make a move without someone else giving them sage advice from the internet. Sometimes I just sit back and wonder how all these animals died in the past with so many stupid, unprepared hunters going after them. With guns that were antiques. How the indians survived against such odds againt the feared buffalo without a 458win is mind-boggling We should be able to bring most animals to extinction with all this great advise being smashed into our foreheads. Don't worry too much about the piss, it will dry off. Just set yur shirt up aginst the computer screen, with all this hot-air blowing out it won't take long

LeeC, you missed the point all together. This has nothing to do with personalities, or, in fact, telling anyone what to use or not to use, as you say that is up to them. What it does have to do with is, debateing the merits of useing a 45-70 as a sensable choice to hunt Cape buffalo, and the calims made for, or against it's value!

I'm sorry if I tiffed you but you can live with that. Judgeing from your latest posts, it is probably a good thing that, as you say, unless you have something to say you keep your mouth shut! The fact is you asked for the post I made, by assumeing you had the right to scold everyone who disagreed with Mr. Garrett. It is one thing to agree with one, and disagree with another point of view, but it isn't your right to scold those who oppose your view. It is quite evident that you had pleanty to say to everyone here yesterday, and today, and you said it, and that was YOUR OPINION, and just like mine, it is worth just exactly the amount people are paying for it, to anyone other than you!

You seem taken with the fact that we post on the internet, well son, if you were not on the internet, you wouldn't know that would you? I'm 66 yrs old, and never had a computer till 4, 5 yrs ago,I'm retired now and on a fixed income, and have much more time to waste, But I have spent a hell of a lot of time hunting all over the world, and building rifles, and useing them on heavy game. I don't know about everyone else, but I've heard about as much as I care to, from the little mud village at the foot of the Organ Mts!

Mac,

It would take a better man than you to piss me off.

I think I know the problem here.

The American going on safari is wrapped up with the idea of "fighting" a cape buffalo instead of "hunting" one.

The 45/70 never has,nor never will be a fighting rifle.It has been,and always will be a very fine hunting rifle.

When you do on safari,you most definetly WON'T be charged unless you screw up in a big way.If you do,and you have a good PH,he'll be doing the fighting.That's why he's packing a fighting rifle.

Brian.

Roger,
If the person could shoot then I would suggest a 416 Rem. or Rigby, or 404 Jefferys and even a 375 H&H or a 9.3x62 is a good choice....A good shot makes up for a lot....

As to using bows, pistols, and 45-70's, I really don't care what someone else uses...I do suggest, recommend and give an opinion and thats about it...

If it is legal then I will book them and let them do their stuff.