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| One of Us |
Below please see 2 views of a .375 H&H bullet recovered from the stomach lining of my buffalo. The buffalo was completely recovered, healthy and fit when I shot and killed him. The .375 had lodged in the bull's stomach lining. Although perfectly expanded, it did not have the gusto to penetrate to the vitals on what appeared to be a quartering away shot. If the bullet had penetrated deeper on a quartering away shot, it would have gone entirely through the paunch, then the liver, then into the lungs.   | ||
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Pretty interesting find. Quote: Which cartridges "have the gusto to penetrate to the vitals" with a soft directed through the stomach? The smaller bullets lack the weight and the bigger bullets have too much frontal area. All that wet grass makes a pretty effective bullet trap. Jason | |||
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500grains Interesting, what weight and brand is it? Thanks / JOHAN | ||
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j brown there have been recorded legth wise exits of elephant with the 500 a-square(with solids) and a few other super sized calibers that through the bullets faster than traditional velositys and i seen pics of legth wise exits on buffalo using the 500 jeffery(barns-x) and 500 a-square(barns-x) as well as the 458 lott and 460 wby swift-a-frame and i am waiting for some pics to come in of a legth wise exit on cape buff using the 585 nyatie and 577 tyrann | |||
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| Administrator |
We have recovered a 375 caliber Nosler partition bullets from a buffalo a friend shot. We found it at teh root of his testticles. The bullet seems to have hit him low in the stomach, and penetrate just under the skin, and conrinued backwards until it stopped where we found it. | |||
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700nitro By "soft" I ment lead core jacketed soft point such as the one in the photo. Solids and BarnesX are a totally different ball game. The soft in the photo has expanded to double its original diameter. What kind of penetration would you expect from a 500 Jeffery or A-square using a lead core soft that would expand to double its diameter? My point is no lead core jacketed soft point can be expected to kill a cape buffalo if it has to penetrate the stomach to get to the vitals regardless of bore size. Jason | |||
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You just don't want to admit the you are under-gunned with your .375.  | |||
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Quote: I'm betting that he was not the most pleasant of Cape Buffs. Jim | |||
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Johan, it looks like a Hornady to me. Not a swift or nosler because there is no exposed lead at the base. The cannelure looks like a Hdy. I will weigh it later and let you know. The front of the bullet has a layer of black hard stuff built up from the time it spend in the buffalo. Kind of like hard black plastic - definitely not lead. JBrown, I took a clue from this find and have no plans whatsoever to use softs on buffalo. (nor a .375...) | |||
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Will Quote: I have never felt "under-gunned" with my 375. I will admit I was a bit concerned when I shot my lion and he started running back down the hill towards us while grunting/roaring his head off. Now when he pulled up as he was about to run past us and turned and looked me directly in the eye at twenty yards I was even more concerned. My "concern" hit its peak about a second later when my second shot hit him in the chest and he lifted and shook his left front paw as if to say "Dam that stung!" then turned and continued in the direction he was headed. As he emitted hurt, angry roars in quick succession from deep within the thick brush and the four females called from every direction the unarmed trackers had already started following the blood spore. My Ph(armed with a 416Rem) mused "This is when a guy should have a four five eight." We followed the spore with safeties off, a round in the chamber and a finger resting on the trigger guard ready to shoot the moment he came into view, I have never felt more alive. Sweat poured off me in spite of the morning chill. The lion had expired in the couple of minutes it took us to find him. I put a solid through his back just to be sure. If I could do it over again I would not have taken the first shot as he ran up the hill. That said the hunt sure was made more memorable because I did.  You guys with the cannons are missing out on all the fun! Jason | |||
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500grains Quote: I wish I had videoed my two cape buffalo kills for you. One went about five yards and fell before the follow-up could be administered. The other made it about ten yards before the third shot dropped him in his tracks. The first shot on both was a 300gr Nosler which entered at the point of the shoulder and took off the blood vessels at top of the heart. These are the only "perfect" "top of the heart" shots I have ever made, so no I am not bragging. Neither bullet exited. The two follow-ups on the second bull were 300gr Woodleigh FMJs. I doubt a bigger gun would have killed them any faster but I can assure you the follow-ups would not have come as quick. Jason | |||
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Jason, You just explained you were under-gunned and then tell me you were not under-gunned, nor felt like it.  Don't be pulling that Mark Sullivan stuff. I guess a face leift and a tummy tuck would have made it even more memorable.I want 'em dead on the ground, right where they were, right now. | |||
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Quote: But does that always happen? The new Nyati book from African Hunter Magazine explains that cape buffalo have survived and recovered from a .375 through both lungs. I will grant that a .375 usually works. But I want the best odds possible. This thread is not supposed to be an indictment of the .375. But it was a bit startling for me when a tracker walked over and said, "Sir - your bullet" and handed me a .375 slug. | |||
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An author conflict in Nyati I guess. Have shot a few buff with a .375 through the lungs. None went far, much less got away to recover. I just find it hard to believe they could recover from that. | |||
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Oh brother, now I've heard everything. A 375 H&H is not enough for buffalo? Then why is it that virtually every PH out there recommends it for their client. Oh wait, Tony Sanchez Arino says it's good for buffalo also. That he told me personally. 500 Nitro I think you're pushing the envelope here a tad. jorge | |||
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If a buff can survive a .375 through the lungs then they can also survive any .45 plus caliber through the lungs. Just remember that the number of buff shot with a .375 far, far out number the buff shot with anthing else and probably all other combined calibers together. That gives it the best chance to fail verses anything else. It's called common logic. | |||
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Was this a Cape Buffalo that this projectile was pulled from? Chuck | |||
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Will Quote: I explained that I was "concerned" my 375 might be too light to get the job done, I never actually felt "under-gunned". In truth if I had placed my first shot correctly my lion would have flopped over dead and I would have missed out on all the excitement. On a more serious note I wonder if when following up wounded dangerous game do you guys carrying the 470/500/600 big bores really believe your super smashers hold the power to bring down a charging beast with a center mass shot? If these rifles did possess such power you would never have to follow anything up as it would fall over dead at the first shot. I think we all know this is not the case. Even with the most powerful sporting rifles you need to place your shots correctly and that is much easier to do on the first shot at 50 yards than it is to do when the wounded animal is charging from ten yards. I believe it is easier to place the shot correctly using a 375 or similar than it is when using a 470/500/600. I believe this holds true both for the first shot and in a charge situation. But then again, I could be wrong! Jason | |||
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Jason, You could be right, and I could be wrong. But I'm not wrong!  Just remember mpoarabsbonole. | |||
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Dan, My Ph told me to use solids from my 375 for buf...With the first shot taking out both shoulders...if I got a broadside shot..Then my friend who has hunted extensively for DG said, Mike, you don't want to be caught using the minimum if the proverbial s--t hits the fan...  That is when I went out and bought a Lott... Mike | |||
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Will I do not(and will not) claim to be right. Your experience far out distances my own and in truth I have only used the 375 so I know only what I have read and been told about using the big bores on game. Next time I will use a larger bore to see if I can tell any difference. The only problem is I have so much confidence in my shooting abilities when using my 375.... The only problem I have with this discussion is with all the guys who think the big bores will solve all their problems even though they can't shoot them worth a darn. The truth is, and any PH will tell you the same, any guy who can't shoot his 470/500/600 well would be better off with a lighter rifle(375, 416 ect). Jason | |||
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Quote: Personally I would just try to avoid shooting a buffalo (or any animal for that matter) in the gut.  | |||
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Quote: Y. | |||
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Quote: Why do people want to talk about marksmanship when that is not the topic? Just do us a favor and assume that none of us will go after a cape with a cartridge he cannot shoot well. I won't do it and I will assume you will not do it. Now, back to the actual topic... | |||
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Do we know for sure that this .375 slug actually went through the gut or just like in Saeed's case only went down the side of the buff(bad shooting) without actually entering the gut. Are you guys blaming the .375 for something that never happened? Too little information to convince me. | |||
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Caliber is not at question here, bullets are, a 375 will penitrate with the best of them and out penitrate the 505 in my experience... What you have with most softpoints is a bullet that expands into a large double or triply size expanded mushroom or ball, thus you get the tennis ball on a trompoline effect when it hits the off side skin for instance..that and it has expended all its energy trying to push that large cross section throuth the animal, all this impedes penitration... On the other hand a bullet like the new Nosler partition in the 416 will expand only slightly, lay back its copper folds along the base of the shaft, into what may be described as a simi expanded bullet with a small cross section, may blow the lead away altogether and may not, makes no difference one way or the other, and it will cut through and out the off side most of the time, while still killing very well indeed...This particular bullet in the .416 may well be the best bullet I have ever used for Buffalo, bar none and I only speak for this caliber. For shooting Buffalo lengthwise from any direction a solid is the route to go IMO...I too have found expanded softs in Buffalo and the one I found last year in my big buff had fully penitrated both lungs and lay in a callus of fiber on the off side skin, It was a perfectly expanded Swift, again in .375 caliber!..Swifts are easy to identify as they invaribly form a large bulge just below the mushroom every darn time, and the expanded portion is a very smooth ball. I personally think this is a fault of the swift bullet, it would destroy more tissue were it ragged like a Woodleigh or the new Rhino bullets, those bullets act like buzz saws and thus they kill better than most bullet. Again, proper shot placement is first, but bullet selection is 2nd without a doubt. Caliber is a distant 3rd and this applies to all animals including and especially dangerous game. This is only my opinnion. | |||
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Quote: As stated in first post, the bullet was in the stomach lining, not under the skin. I am not trying to convince you of anything - just a bit of data from the field that some people might find interesting. | |||
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500 Quote: You sure seem defensive. As I wrote this I was thinking of the guy with the 470 capstick who had to shoot a cow elk five or six times before he got the job done. I remember reading how he felt the bullets were too hard and the scope was sighted in too high and all I could think was, "If this fool would use a rifle he could handle he would do fine." I remember thinking "If the 270 can kill an Elk with one shot and this guy needs half a dozen 470s maybe he should carry a lighter rifle that he can shoot". It is these jackasses I am thinking of when I talk about the guys that think a larger bore will solve their problems(I am sure this fool would never try for buffalo or elephant in light of his poor shooting). In truth better shot placement would solve their problems. This could be accomplished easily with a lighter rifle, such as a 375 or 416, but I am wasting my breath. They will never learn. Big bores rule! As long as you can handle them. Jason | |||
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Jason, it seems you are here to start a fight (and make up a few facts along the way too...) If you feel that a .375 is your limit, then I am not trying to push you to use something else. So there is no reason to get your feathers ruffled. Now let's try to have a civil discussion. Will you agree to that? | |||
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| Administrator |
Gentlemen, I don't know why this sort of thread always end up having heated arguments. Caliber, regardless of its size, is not what kills an animal. It is the destruction of vital functions that do. Hit a buffalo in the brain with a 17 Remington and he will die just as surely as if he was hit with a 700 Nitro. The operative word here is sufficient PENETRATION. I also bet that more elephants and buffalo are killed by sportsmen using the 375 H&H than any other caliber. Even today, a number of hunters use smaller calibers to kill their buffalo. I know of a hunter and his wife who were hunting buffalo. The wife did not want to shoot her husband's 458 Winchester. The PH agreed to let her use her 7mm Remington magnum to shoot her buffalo. And guess what! She dropped it in its tracks with a spine shot. I personally know a gentleman in Tanzania, who culls buffalo using a 308 Winchester. He prefers solids, but when we don't have any, I load him Norma 180 grain soft points. | |||
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Saeed, when you say you know someone in Tz that "culls" buffalo that uses a .308 is that because he doesn't own anything larger or is that by choice? Do you have his contact as i sure would like to ask if i can join him next time he goes out..... | |||
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In the Nickudu Files, you'll find weekly articles stating that caliber kills. This week it's from Gregor Woods:  | |||
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Quote: Are you asking me to disregard reality? Come now I think we all know better. I don't want to start a fight and I wonder which facts you feel I made up. Quote: The bullet was directed through the bulls guts, I would describe that as a problem related to marksmanship not caliber. Here is a quote from Saeed that might give you some food for thought. Then again, maybe not. Quote: | |||
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Quote: Amazing that this guy is asking for a civil discussion after his name-calling, holier-than-thou, don't-confuse-me-with-facts, leave-us-dangerous-men-alone, know-it-all attitude when trying to discuss penetration. THAT issue MIGHT have bearing on THIS discussion of why there weren't two holes in this animal. Regards | |||
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Quote:Quote: | |||
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Quote:Quote:Quote: | |||
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even the best of marks man mess up and missplace a shot every now and then bullet hits a twig or animal moves suddenly. this topic is about penetration and the 375's ability to penetrate(and bullet construction) not about marksmanship. if it was, the original poster would have brought it up. 1000 grains in the right place is better than 500 grains in the right place. is better than 300 grains in the right place. | |||
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I will ask him if he needs any help, and will let you know. I know his partners cull with him. | |||
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Shooting Buffalo lengthwise is not uncommon, at least for me, if I have a "proper solid" or even one of Saeeds monolithics which will certainly shoot lengthwise through a Buffalo...A GS solid or HV will do the same. I will take a rear end shot or frontal shot on a bull..Most gut shot buffalo are from that practice as opposed to bad shooting, the problem is in some cases they used a soft either by accident, or lack of knowledge...Also I always a bull a second or even a 3rd shot as they run off from the first shot. unless I'm using a .308, 7x57 or whatever during culling operations, then they are shot in the head most of the time, but even with a proper bullet in a .308 both elephant and Buffalo die, even with heart shots but these calibers are not charge stoppers, and they are slow to kill with shoulder shots... So the discussion on gut shot Buffalo is a valid one for sure, as that shot is used and the issue needs discussion I would think.. | |||
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| Moderator |
700Nitro - you are on the right track. 500Grains is right, in that every time a discussion of this type arises, there are those who feel compelled to insert aspects that are not to the poster's point. "If you can shoot it", "a 300 grain bullet in the right place is ...." "it all depends on the man behind the gun" etc., etc. Reading what is posted and addressing it at face value will avoid a lot of this. We're all guilty of not doing so, from time to time. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting A bullet in the gut makes me spry....375 H&H story
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