The below link is video showing what a sham the election was. It defies common logic that ANYONE could say that brother bob is the legitimate ruler of Zim.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2008/jul/04/election.zimbabwe

The Washington Post had an excellent piece over the weekend that illustrates the control by the generals. Unfortunately the general with the horsepower is only 61. Mouse 93 was right on the money with his earlier post. Mugabe is only a part of the problem.

It's just the same old Africa problem -- tribalism. Mashona vs. Matabele continues in perpetuity, like Kikuyu vs. Luo, Amhara vs. Oromo, (take your pick).

Mugabe isn't stupid nore are JOC scoundrels – they know they have bottomed up on Zim. All the hassle after March elections is mainly digging in and maintaining the ground to pull out of the mess they have made. Pressure, sanctions and isolations won’t do any good.

Anybody read what Zim's deputy information minister said:

“…isolating and demonising Zimbabwe is not in the best interests of anyone. They should treat Zimbabwe as a partner rather than an enemy,"?

Crooked as it seems looks like it is the only wise thing to do at the moment – those guys are willing to talk – hope the Big guys are going to listen to that and do something accordingly in the interest of Zim people - sooner the better.

P.S. What we have here is a hostage situation - IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by mouse93:

P.S. What we have here is a hostage situation - IMO.

Precisely. But the only "politically correct" people that can negotiate are the neighbors, and with their endless genuflecting and courtesy nothing is going to get done. Some have spoken out, but damn few. Now you have a famine coming like a freight train, as posted above. Looks like a perfect storm, or just the cycle of Africa, depending upon your perspective I guess.

Although the comments about a direct U.S. intervention being a bad move are correct, no one has said anything about a local cry for assistance. If the "Zimbabwe People" cried out for help, and took action themselves of some kind, help would come. Unfortunately, we don't have, in Africa, the plurality of democratic leaders that have emerged on other continents. Mostly its a change in dictators. Some of the PC might say I'm showing a prejudice. No. Although the truth hurts, its still the truth. Armed insurrection? Yep, its gonna take that. We could supply the equipment. Look what it did for the Russo/Afghani war. It has happened in Central America. All it would take is some leadership. Unfortunately, all we would probably see is a new Robert Mugabe.

That's true. True democracy is an alien concept in Africa because of tribalism, as someone has already mentioned.

Russia, China veto UN sanctions on Zimbabwe By JOHN HEILPRIN, Associated Press Writer
17 minutes ago



Russia and China vetoed proposed sanctions on Zimbabwe Friday, rejecting U.S. efforts to step up punitive measures against its authoritarian regime linked to a rash of violence surrounding a disputed presidential election.

Western powers mustered nine votes, the minimum needed to gain approval in the 15-nation council. But the resolution failed because of the action by two of the five veto-wielding members.

The other three members with veto power, the U.S., Britain and France, argued sanctions were needed to respond to the violence and intimidation linked to Zimbabwe's recent and widely discredited presidential election.

Russia's U.N. Ambassador Vitaly Churkin said sanctions would have taken the U.N. beyond its mandate to deal with threats to international peace and security.

Chinese politics is more and more nasty and outrageous. China support thes worst regimes in the world : Zim, Sudan , Burma, Norht Korea...........
and all of us are buying the low end goods they provide and will run to the Olympic games to give China a new virginity.
Russia is another story : mostly Russia sulks and has to cope with China, they sort of sleep in the same bed.

I just saw a headline on Yahoo.com that stated, "Zimbabwe says UN Sanctions Failure a Victory Over Racism."

I didn't even go in and read it because I didn't want to start a Saturday morning that way.

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:
That's true. True democracy is an alien concept in Africa because of tribalism, as someone has already mentioned.

Not necessarily - I have just read the following - by George Ayittey:

"The African Vampire State

The source of Africa' s perennial crises can be traced to the alien
system of governance imposed on Africa by its leaders after independence in
the 1960s -- in particular, defective political and economic systems that
were blindly copied abroad and imported into Africa: The political system of
"one-party state" system with "presidents-for-life" and an economic system
of dirigisme or state interventionism. These systems are alien to Africa's
own indigenous institutions. The traditional African system of governance
was confederacy and participatory democracy based upon consensus-building
under its chiefs. The ancient empires of Africa - Songhai, Ghana, Mali and
Great Zimbabwe - were all confederacies, characterized by great devolution
of authority and decentralization of power.

The traditional African economic system was free market and free
enterprise. In contrast to the West, where the individual was the basic
social and economic unit, the extended family was the economic unit in
traditional Africa. It acted as a "corporate entity," owned the land on
which food was produced for consumption. The surplus was sold on village
markets. There were markets in Africa before the colonialists stepped foot
on the continent. Timbuktu, Salaga, Kano, Mombasa and Sofala were all great
market towns. Prices on Africa's traditional markets have always been
determined by bargaining. Chiefs do not fix prices and market activity,
especially in West Africa, has always been dominated by women.

All these suddenly changed after independence. Markets were suddenly
portrayed as "western institutions" to be controlled and even destroyed. And
democracy suddenly became a western luxury Africa could not afford. In their
places were erected the "one-party state system," where opposition parties
were outlawed and one buffoon ran for president, always won 99.9999 percent
of the vote to declare himself "president-for-life." No such nonsensical
system existed in traditional Africa. Chiefs were chose, OK? And if they did
not govern according to the will of he people, they were removed. No African
chief declared his village to be a "one-party state" and himself
"Chief-for-Life."

The "one-party state" was a political system that concentrated a great
deal of power in the hands of the head of state. Any political system that
concentrates a lot of power in the hands of one individual ultimately
degenerates into tyranny, regardless of the geographical area where it is
established. As Lord Acton once said: "Power tends to corrupt and absolute
power corrupts absolutely." Similarly, the economic system of state
interventionism, under the guise of socialism, concentrated enormous
economic power in the hands of the state.

Very quickly after independence, the head of state and government
officials discovered that they could use the enormous power vested in the
state to enrich themselves, punish their rivals and perpetuate themselves in
office. Gradually in post-colonial Africa, "government," as we know it,
ceased to exist. What came to exist is a "vampire state" - a government
hijacked by a phalanx of unrepentant bandits and vagabonds, who use the
machinery of the state to enrich themselves, their cronies, tribesmen and
exclude everyone else - the politics of exclusion. The richest people in
Africa are heads of state and ministers. Quite often, the chief bandit is
the head of state himself."

quote:

phalanx of unrepentant bandits and vagabonds

No doubt about your post, but that "phalanx" is comprised of members of the same tribe wherever you go, and other tribal groups are excluded from power.

I would gather from "The Vampire State" article that all was well in Africa pre colonial days and if left alone the Continent would "right itself..." and become the well oiled governmental machine it once was???? Or is it to be taken that the entire population has been tainted so much over the past 300 years or so that it is beyond hope that any return to the "good ol'days" is beyond reaching??
I do not totally disagree with the article and have heard such discussions at University, but a few things were left out and some of those are the use of the "spear" and butchery greater than modern warfare has produced. There is no question that the intervention/intruding of Europeans establishing colonies in the African Continent brought about great change, but if one were fortunate to have a panoramic overview of the all of Africa both during colonial days versus what we see today in Africa, I am not so sure that one would not see the colonial days offered greater stability than currently exists. Point being that tribalism plays a definite role in the activities in almost all of Africa and to dismiss it would be an error.
In many of the work forces today it is very important to not put the workers from certain tribes within the ranks of other tribal members or you will have a serious problem on your hands. (Someone is going to be killed.)
Over the past 50 years or so billions of dollars have been poured into Africa and believe you will find that the U.S. is the largest contributor and where these funds and effort to bring about stability has produced favorable results, I for one would like to see that pointed out. It isn't there. Again, well written article with much fact other than dismissing tribalism as a pivitol factor in the African continent and in particular below the Sahara.

quote:

Originally posted by dsiteman:
I would gather from "The Vampire State" article that all was well in Africa pre colonial days and if left alone the Continent would "right itself..." and become the well oiled governmental machine it once was????.

???? = yeh right, ditto

Strange how that in the days before colonialism, they governed with fear, death, displacement, beatings, etc. take shaka zulu for eg.... hell I'd hate to get a speeding fine.... get the crap beaten out of yourself. Zim is a prime example of what can and 99% of the time goes wrong in an african state.

If Africa was left alone then the argument would be that people never came to africa to develop it and it is the wests fault and that is why it is poor. now they blame the west for corrupting them by instilling morals and professions....

choose a side but dont hop from tree tops screaming foul play. the greed of the "african leaders" is the greatest threat africa will ever have

I wouldn’t call it an African issue – it is human nature – you take it if you can get away with it – remember post WWII. eastern block?

I was born and lived in a one party state – not on the other side of the iron curtain but nevertheless – I don’t want to draw conclusions from that but similarity is stunning. I have seen it and lived it.

When you entered the primary school you had to join our leader’s pioneers – “voluntarily†of course. Once you made it through the high school and reached 18 years, you were automatically promoted to our leader’s youth – when you applied for a job one of the first questions was “Are you a member of a party?â€. Not obligatory, but not a chance of promotion and career neither. No other possibilities – you are either with us or against us. There were state prisons and labour camps for those clearly opposing – they didn’t kill them but you may stay there for decades. I remember how parents had to make a trip to black market every payday in the month and stand in line for a couple of hours to exchange our currency for German Marks – if they would miss it for a week we wouldn’t make it through the month. Market shelves were bit fuller then Zim today but not by much. We didn’t starve but didn’t had much more neither. Fuel was scarce – first they (gov.) set a rule that you can drive a car every second day – depended on last number of the plates – 1,3,5,7,9 were Monday, Wednesday, Friday while 2,6,8 and 0 were Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday – Sunday was free for all. Later they issued us with fuel coupons – they were almost hard currency. If you wanted a car you had to plan it a year ahead – that was a delivery time…stuff like that. There were bright things – education, health insurance, low (not existing) crime rate…but all that would go astray sooner or later, if we would continue the way it was…– see anything familiar?

Expecting a help from outside? Sanctions? Put some sanctions on the government and ruling party and they would make it your problem at the end. Future looks grim when heads and hands are busy making it through a day – forget the revolt and stuff – first comes survival then the rest and the last one needs in those circumstances is armed conflict. Cards are shuffled on the highest tables – UN veto – what a joke – those guys (all of them) saw it coming from beginning – it is a trade game and as long as you are expendable you will be on the table - not playing - been played for.

But times change…

No travel ban or limits on spending hunting dollars for U.S. citizens (yet).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President George W. Bush on Friday signed an order expanding U.S. sanctions against the "illegitimate" Zimbabwe government of President Robert Mugabe.
ADVERTISEMENT

"This action is a direct result of the Mugabe regime's continued politically-motivated violence," Bush said in a statement.

Mugabe won a landslide victory last month in a vote condemned by Western nations and boycotted by opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai, who cited government-sponsored violence and intimidation.

The Treasury Department said it would seek to freeze assets on 17 Zimbabwe enterprises.

Bush said he took the step after Mugabe's government disregarded calls from the African Union and the United Nations to stop attacks.

"Should ongoing talks in South Africa between Mugabe's regime and the Movement of Democratic Change result in a new government that reflects the will of the Zimbabwean people, the United States stands ready to provide a substantial assistance package, development aid, and normalization with international financial institutions," Bush said.

He authorized using up to $2.5 million from the U.S. Emergency Refugee and Migration Assistance Fund to help Zimbabwean refugees and asylum seekers displaced by the violence.

(Reporting by Tabassum Zakaria; Editing by Kristin Roberts)

quote:

Originally posted by mouse93:
- by George Ayittey:

"The African Vampire State


All these suddenly changed after independence. Markets were suddenly
portrayed as "western institutions" to be controlled and even destroyed. And
democracy suddenly became a western luxury Africa could not afford. In their
places were erected the "one-party state system," where opposition parties
were outlawed and one buffoon ran for president, always won 99.9999 percent
of the vote to declare himself "president-for-life." No such nonsensical
system existed in traditional Africa. Chiefs were chose, OK? And if they did
not govern according to the will of he people, they were removed. No African
chief declared his village to be a "one-party state" and himself
"Chief-for-Life."

"

Is this guy - Ayittey - kidding or just completely ignorant?

What about the Zulus under Shaka, the Baganda Kings and other numerous examples.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/7529623.stm

Zimbabwe talks are 'deadlocked'

Unnamed sources in Zimbabwe's MDC opposition say historic talks with the governing Zanu-PF party are deadlocked.

A dispute has apparently arisen over a push by President Robert Mugabe's party to have MDC leader Morgan Tsvangirai appointed "third vice-president".

The MDC sources said this was "insulting", and reflected negatively on the talks' facilitator, President Thabo Mbeki of South Africa.

Talks began last week after a rare meeting between the two leaders.

The delicate negotiations following this year's disputed elections are meant to be happening under a news blackout, but sources in the Tsvangirai camp have told the BBC that they have now ground to a halt.

'Lacks sincerity'

The Associated Press news agency reported that Mr Mugabe's negotiators were to fly home to Zimbabwe on Monday, although it is unclear whether the talks are in recess or have broken down completely.

AP quoted a different official in Zimbabwe saying Justice Minister Patrick Chinamasa and Social Welfare Minister Nicholas Goche - Mr Mugabe's negotiators - might be going home to consult the president about their mandate.

The same official said Mr Tsvangirai had left Zimbabwe on Monday and was travelling to the South African capital, Pretoria, to consult his own negotiators.

A source quoted by the AFP news agency said the proposal to name Mr Tsvangirai third vice-president showed a "complete lack of sincerity and the need to really address the issues and problems Zimbabwe is facing".

Zimbabwe's current first and second vice-presidents are both high-ranking Zanu-PF members.

A spokesman for President Mbeki told the BBC he had no knowledge of the talks breaking down.

The South African government earlier criticised new sanctions imposed on Zimbabwe by America and the EU, saying they could obstruct the talks.

Mr Tsvangirai pushed Mr Mugabe into second place in the first round of voting on 29 March but he pulled out of a 27 June run-off election after a wave of deadly attacks against his supporters.