The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Re: The Truth on the superiority of the 45-70Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Re: The Truth on the superiority of the 45-70 | Login/Join |
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Actually I think that the extra 100 fps is there but since Garrett is loading ammo commercially available to the public he can't push it to the edge. I will try a little hotter myself since my gun is stainless and I believe can handle the pressures. The pressure limits are established inside of what the gun will actually handle so I am going to carefully push them and the Speer bullet is denser and allows for more capacity than a lead bullet. | ||
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Ok everyone. Listen up and pay close attention now. The 45-70 can stop anything on the planet! Even if you miss the target by 3 feet the sheer power of the passing bullet will do it in. All kidding aside now, the 45-70 can TAKE ANY GAME on the planet! Any game! Now many out there may not have the cohonies to put this to the test but there are plenty who have. So all you "doubting Thomas's or ChuckWagons" out there pipe down and give praise to the 45-70. The MIGHTY 45-70!!!! You will do yourself credit. -C | |||
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Post deleted by ChuckWagon | |||
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C'mon Chucky... You should be wearing a T-Shirt that says "I am a tru-believer in the 45-70" You more than anyone else knows the awesome stopping power of the grand ole thunderstick! A $450 Marlin 45-70 over all your expensive crap for anything on the planet. Ha you guys who went for the 2 g's got robbed. Hahaha Long Live ChuckWagon C | |||
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The SHOT show introduced a Marlin single shot 'buffalo rifle' in 45-70. After all you won't need more than one shot because it's so potent. My Browning 1885 gets deer with one shot all the time . | |||
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My point exactly. If you are afraid to use a real caliber then maybe you just oughta stay home  | |||
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I am just going to use my 10/22 ruger. After all it kills a grouse dead with just one shot and I will have 9 to spare in case I am charged. If the old buff gets too close I'll whip out my 45-70 silver plated cartridge and yell " Die you old Cow !" poof. Just the mere thought of the mighty old 45-70 will have the old bull wetting his leg and running with fear. If he runs away and I do shoot the other 9 shots no doubt I will find several dead Buff's all killed with the FIRST trough shot. I will then be obligated to spead the word about the mighty 10/22 chambered in 22 LR as I write for any rag that will publish my histerical accounts  | |||
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First of all let's be a little more realistic. Once the Buff get wind that there is even a 45-70 on the continent they are all gonna start swimming to Australia. Second off you should be using your 45-70 for grouse too becuase it's just so good of a cartridge. Thirdly, 45-70 is the only real caliber a hunter should use unless he's gay, in which case he will find other uses for the cartridge. Stop living in denial! You knowwwwww You loveeee the 45-70! C | |||
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But they did swim to Australia. That's why they call them water Buff  | |||
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The 45-70 gave me teh cooties... .......  | |||
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Quote: Hey Chuckywagon... The Alsatian happens to be a personal friend of mine. I can garantee you you he has forgotten more about the 45-70 than you will ever know about all guns in general. He is a master with a 1911. I know what him and his wife do for a living and you can't imagine how foolish you sound talking about whether he can afford a hunt in Africa or not. You might want to learn how to spell AlsatiAn also. rob (not impressed with chuckywagon) | |||
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Hey Rob, Now we don't want to give the folks here the wrong idea about me. I am the master of nothing in particular. Seriously though. I do think that there are better cartridges than the .45-70 in any guise for hunting dangerous game. However, the old .45-70 surely has and will continue to kill everything that needs killing. I don't think it is a stunt either. Now, huntingBuffalo with the .357 mag....that is probably not a good idea. But, Doug Wesson did just that. .44 mag? Sure, JD Jones did that (not me though!). .475 Linebaugh? Well sure, that has been done too. In short, I don't consider the .45-70 superior to any of the grand old thumpers, but it certainly does a better job than many things that have been used to bust a bull. Mr. ChuckWagon.......Might I suggest a bit more fiber? | |||
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Now tell us how your client kills Tons of cape buffalo with a 308 and they are no tuffer than a old ox. Tell us how the 45-70 is superior in knock down power to the 375 H&H. Theese are your statements. Their are no moderators here to bail you out so speak up and be heard. Tell us how you do not want to shoot a Bison to test your mighty thunder stick becuse it has been proven to be the most effective Bison killer since 1873. | |||
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Quote: No moderators? Cool...Hey Chucky, Your an idiot so this will be the last post from me to you...on this board or otherwise. It's just funny how you talk nice to Alsatian on the other board and over here you badmouth him behind his back. As for the 45-70 compared to the 375 H&H, why don't you get a copy of the current Rifle magazine and the month before that and read what Brian Pearce's African PH (that's proffesional hunter to idiots) said about Brian's Marlin 45-70. Your talking out your rearmost parts! rob | |||
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Exactly Alsatian, But about that 1911...I done seen you shoot that thing  Let's get back to the other forum and hope like heck that the good guys over hear don't have to put up with the likes of Chucky anymore rob | |||
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Quote: HAAAHAHAHAHA... you're killing me chuck!!!! | |||
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btw, a HOT 45-70 makes about 15% less "oomph" than a "standard" 35 Whelen... chew on that. does that mean that the Whelen is an acceptable buff-gun??? mine won't see that test. | |||
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You mean the article where he shot threw a Cape buff with one shot from the 45-70 ? The same one where he shot several times missing as the buff ran away ? Then he and his PH found a dead cow so of course he proclaims " I know where all my shots went so my first shot must have went threw the bull exited and killed the cow !" You mean that article ? The same one that the fearless writer proclaims it was a good thing their wasn't a third buff standing behind the cow ? yeah I read it. I also read that it was a good thing that the PH went along with it so the hunter did not have to pay the trophy fee on the cow !  Of course all that lead he sent flying after he thought he missed didn't have a thing to do with the dead cow now did it ? | |||
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By the way PH stands for Professional Hunter as in the guide You know the one who was carrying the 470 NITRO ! | |||
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Now Mister Chuck Wagon, you are getting all upset. Let's calm down now. Take some deep breaths.......steady.....steady. Now, don't you feel better? Remember "Nimrod was a great hunter before the Lord." | |||
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Thats nice. Now lets actually see you answer to the stuff you posted. I figured you would dodge the issues. | |||
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If you insist. I have a client who lives in South Africa. His family has a textle business there and holdings on several continents. His opinion is that buffalo are somewhat overrated and the problems that people get into with them is due to their failure to properly place the shot. He claims to have killed a number of buffalo with a .308, it is one of the old Melvin Forbes ultralite rifles that I gave him. Now, I have not seen it done, but I have no reason to doubt him. You suggested that I go hunt buffalo on a high fenced place here in Texas. I simply replied that I don't care to hunt animals in cages, even big ones. I would think that any ethical hunter could understand that an animal shot in a pen is no trophy. | |||
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Now that is true but is in fact not quite every thing you said. Now be a man and and simply state your case. From this point forth we will leave out the slams and punches. Just state your case and we will debate. This is the fun part and you have a chance to prove your metal. You said your client feels they are no tuffer than a old ox and they just fall over dead. I suggested you try a Bison hunt in your home state Texas, to try out your cartridge before you were convinced on the word of others and not your own experience. I do not believe in caned hunts and I never suggested any such thing. You should be aware that many areas in Africa are behind a fence. I mention it only due to your adversion to fences. I know several large ranches in Texas. Theese are all several thousand acres and Jack knows a few in other states that offer a free range Bison hunt. Your reply to that was to the effect that it was a waste of time as the 45-70 has been proven to be the a perfectly good buffalo killer since 1873. | |||
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Mister Chuck Wagon, My reply was more than that. Here is my position on it: I just don't have the desire to shoot an American Bison. I drove through the plains of South Dakota and the rolling hills in Northern Colorado on my way back from Alaska. As I drove, I thought about the plains and the game that once was there and I decided then that I really did not want to hunt American Bison (don't really want to hunt pronghorns either). There are a number of ranches here where they are available to look at or to shoot. I don't have a personal desire to shoot one, any more than I want to shoot one of my cows. Nothing against those who want to hunt them, I just don't. I have a cousin in Palmer, Alaska who will never kill another bear in his life if he can avoid it. He has killed them, but he will do so no more unless forced into it. I understand his position, but it won't keep me from hunting bear if given a chance. I don't need to shoot a Bison with a .45-70 just to see what it will do. I think I have seen plenty of pictures of dead bison.....many of which probably met their end due to a sudden overdose of lead propelled by a black powder cartridge. .45-70, .45-90, .45-110 or .50-90. Each of these cartridges is considerably outclassed by the modern .45-70 loaded with smokeless powder. If you want to argue that any of the above blackpowder cartridges or the various Winchester express cartridges you cited (all of which were black powder cartridges)would not do the job on an American Bison, well we are getting pretty far afield from our original argument over whether a .45-70 would be adequate to kill a buffalo. Let's not argue about such things. Life is much too short. We won't ever be friends, but we don't have to be. | |||
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ahhh yes but you still avoid addressing you statements that the 45-70 delivers more punch and knock down power than the 375 H&H. You also skim over the old ox theory on the Cape buff. let us disscus the out dated black powder cartridges. This is a intersting spin. I would remind you sir that in 1886 when the 45-90 and 50 Express were introduced even the venerable 45-70 was still a black powder cartridge. So now I am to believe you found your roots on the long drive home and can not be brought to shoot such a majestic creature as the bison yet you desire to shoot a animal described by some one you know and trust as "docile as a old Ox and quick to die". | |||
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Hey ChuckyWagon, I see you edited out your comment about eating a bran muffin on the other thread. I wonder if your not busier editing your posts or writing them? By the way when are you going to take responsibility for YOUR actions. It will probably be kind of hard since you edit out half of what you say after it is soundly refuted and you probably cannot keep track anyway.As far as whoopins go, I'd bet the only whoopin you've seen is the ones you get when you shoot off your mouth to the wrong person. Doesn't it just bunch your bran filled panties that you can't edit what the rest of us write? Is the Wagon in your name to haul around all the crap? As for the Levergun site and not doing this there, ever heard of not crapping in your own yard? And last but not least, I would be willing to bet that a hot loaded Speer Tungsten in a .45-70 would penetrate TWO bull elephant and a cape buff and keep on truckin'.  | |||
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If less velocity = more penetration as Randy "Einstein" Garrett says, then why does he use hot loads in his ammo? Wouldn't he get better penetration with light loads that push the bullet at even lower velocity? Hmmmm....... | |||
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I'll take this one. Part of the reason you want a higher muzzle velocity is to keep the down range velocity in the ideal . Also, you couldn't just go up and push the bullet into the animals skin(if you could get that close without getting killed) so you need some velocity to begin penetrating. I believe it is a matter of hydrodynamics. If you are water skiing, the water is sure a lot harder at higher speeds and you don't just fall in, you bounce. Same thing except you have to at least break the fiber of the animals muscle while penetrating the mostly water that is the animals muscle. Too much speed and the water becomes harder. This becomes irrelevant though in the light of the almost spiritual aspect of the .45-70 as it transcends mere mortal bullets with it's mystical Western powers of penetration.  | |||
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I think the last paragraph you typed is very close to the truth as many seem to see it ! I take full responsability for editing that "I was eating a bran muffin as I typed " I did not think every one else was interested. In my opnion your Mr. Garret would squeeze out another 100fps if he had the case capacity to do so. | |||
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What we have here is FAILYA to commun'cate. You guys are stuck back in the gun's action on a NAME and a LEGEND when all we are talking about is a 400 grain bullet with a MV of 1800 to 1900 fps. In cast or solid format this will probably shoot through a buff from 10 to 50 paces and obviously kill the critter if it is well placed. Same thing with a big Brown Bear. This bullet has the same sectional density as the .308 180 or the .375 270 grain bullets and will penetrate well as long as it does not expand much, especially at 1500 to 1900 fps. Now, one can get the exact same performance in a 458 Win with reduced loads using the same bullet. It will work just as well as a 45-70. It is not optimal, but it will work. | |||
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This 45-70 thread has become unrealistic and is pushed to the limit by folks that wouldn't know a Cape Buffalo if it ran over them, and a few with an ego so extreme that they have to do stunts to make a point, therefore they have no credentials to base anything they say on IMO... The simple truth is a 45-70 is not enough gun to put your life on the line with in a charge situation and it may get you and the PH killed or maimed, but fortunatly you have a PH handy to pull your dumb ass out of the fire, should it happen,at least hopefully he will.... But the bottom line is these guns are illegal for for what that's worth, being a cup of coffee if you have a dollar to pay for it....the other thing is your free, white or whatever, and 21 and you can do whatever blows your skirts up as far as I'm concerned, you have that right....by the same token I have the perfect right to disagree. | |||
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Ray,Ray, come on, isn't it obvious what is going on here. This thread was started for a particular person. Isn't that obvious? Come on man, read some of the inflammatory remarks. Just laugh, enjoy, join in, whatever. Unless your a dumb ass and believe half this crap. Speaking of. It's real easy to call someone a dumb ass when your not lookin' em in the eye. | |||
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I haven't heard many positive things about your Outfitting business. In fact I have heard some very negative things. It might be due to your rough temperment. C | |||
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Quote: It is completely inappropriate to attack a fellow forumite's commercial enterprise both without foundation and for no other reason than you cannot find evidence to rebut Mr. Atkinson's position on this silly 45-70 business. | |||
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I agree. If theese people are so convinced buy some catridges and some ballistic gel, set up a chrony and prove your case. I can only wonder why Garret and CorBon cartridges have not done that to back up their claims. The latest hype I see is that a alleged representitive of CorBon is making claims that their 405 grain penetrator bullet in 45-70 will out penetrate ANY rifle/bullet combination used in Africa. I think that is testomony in and of itself just how silly this has become. | |||
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Just stating a point on some of the rumours I have heard. You are one to talk 500gr. You attack Mr. Garrett's busines all the time. As did Mr. Atkinson. Personally I have heard no such negativity about GarrettCartridges. C | |||
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Quote: Good Point Sore, This guy obviously didn't get it..... Then has to go and call others a dumbass, hey Ray? We all got the joke! Lighten up and maybe someone will actually book a hunt with you. C | |||
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I'll reiterate what I said before and it follows Ray's logic. A 45/70 can kill a buffalo, so can a 22 short, but it is not a cartridge DESIGNED for buffalo. The only reason one would want to do such a thing is to: A. Prove a point ( like killing a buff with a spear{penis-envy}) B. Have somethihng to SELL ( as in this case) C. You are a microcephallic moron that doesn't know any better D. You are devoid of propriety akin to putting ice in a glass of Chateau Lafitte Rothchild. Here's another angle. In my business (Naval Aviation) would be like going up to fight a Su-27 Flanker with an F-9 Banshee ( Korean War vintage) when you have an F-14D available. I suppose you could get away with it. Letters A-C apply with emphasis on "C". jorge | |||
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Quote: I can't beleive you would seriously equate a .45-70 to a .22 short. If that is Ray's logic as you stated then you have definately lowered his credibility and I would never do business with him if that is the case. I wonder what he thinks about your stupid comment. That would be like comparing a p-51 Mustang with a Sopwith Camel. I refer you back to your own item C. Besides anyone who would drink a French Chateau in any manner or anything French at all definately has no credibility with me and probably a lot of other people, WTF was that supposed to prove? That we're too unsophistocated to comprehend your pompous assinine assumptions you sophomoric moron? And actually it is probably the ONLY cartridge on the planet that WAS designed specifically for Buffalo. The American Bison that kills people annually in Yellowstone park. | |||
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Yea,I can't believe 500 grains is so oblivious to his own remarks regarding Garrett that he actually chastised you for the same thing. Maybe he forgot which side of his mouth he was talking out of. Atkinsen sure isn't doing a very good job of endearing anyone to his business either. I never heard of him until here so guess what I know of him? Too bad as he might be an okay guy if he wasn't taking such a personal stake in all this. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Re: The Truth on the superiority of the 45-70
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Of course his judgement was no doubt impared by the fact he can not afford the hunt 