The Accurate Reloading Forums
Would you hunt...
19 January 2011, 00:47
A.DahlgrenWould you hunt...
Im just interested if you would hunt on confiscated land in Zimbabwe and with "black listed people" if it wasnt a lacey act violation. Would people be able to resist lower price etc.
Would it be ok to hunt on a confiscated farm if the new "owner" did right for himself and gave the old owner that was thrown out money every year ???
What do the outfitters from Zim say on this forum ? Martin etc ? Is it a NO NO.
19 January 2011, 00:52
Cross L#1 no on hunting with black listed people-
#2 absent black list perhaps check with old owner-this one is tougher but not much still a bad thing
SSR
19 January 2011, 01:23
L. David KeithNO! On any confiscated land I ever set foot on, there wasn't enough game to feed a Shrew. Ethics aside, you would be wasting a lot of money and time. Besides, you might wind up as dinner.
LDK
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Took the wife the Eastern Cape for her first hunt:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6881000262Hunting in the Stormberg, Winterberg and Hankey Mountains of the Eastern Cape 2018
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http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6341092311 Recent hunt in the Eastern Cape, August 2010: Pics added
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Every morning the Zebra wakes up knowing it must outrun the fastest Lion if it wants to stay alive. Every morning the Lion wakes up knowing it must outrun the slowest Zebra or it will starve. It makes no difference if you are a Zebra or a Lion; when the Sun comes up in Africa, you must wake up running......
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19 January 2011, 03:14
tx308after watching documentary Mugabe and the white farmer there is no way I could hunt on the land in either case.
19 January 2011, 03:42
Michael RobinsonI would not.
Mike
Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer.
19 January 2011, 05:17
505 gibbsquote:
Im just interested if you would hunt on confiscated land in Zimbabwe and with "black listed people" if it wasnt a lacey act violation?
quote:
I would not.
Mike
Absolutely amazing.
19 January 2011, 05:43
safari-lawyerNot me.
Will J. Parks, III
19 January 2011, 05:47
gas57I would not and do not want to hunt in Zim.
When catapults are outlawed, only outlaws will have catapults!
19 January 2011, 05:56
MikeBurkeNever on confiscated land.
I will hunt in Zim to support the landowners and operators who have defied the odds and survived. They are the wildlife's only hope.
19 January 2011, 06:06
Michael Robinsonquote:
Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
quote:
Im just interested if you would hunt on confiscated land in Zimbabwe and with "black listed people" if it wasnt a lacey act violation?
quote:
I would not.
Mike
Absolutely amazing.
It is apparently my burden to amaze the ignorant.
Mike
Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer.
19 January 2011, 06:51
Idaho SharpshooterSad to say, I would have trouble ever hunting in Zimbabwe again.
You can not hold out any hope that Bob's Posse will not unleash a reign of terror when he dies.
If money can't sway you, what can?
Rich
DRSS
19 January 2011, 06:52
MJinesquote:
Originally posted by Mike70560:
Never on confiscated land.
I will hunt in Zim to support the landowners and operators who have defied the odds and survived. They are the wildlife's only hope.
+1
Mike
19 January 2011, 07:10
SevenxbjtNo.
19 January 2011, 07:20
Singleshot03How many people hunt on land taken from the Indians?
Jim
19 January 2011, 07:21
Larry SellersI would not hunt on confiscated land in Zim.
Michael - Not to worry it doesn't take much to amaze 505. He even amazes himself sometimes.
Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
quote:
Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
quote:
Im just interested if you would hunt on confiscated land in Zimbabwe and with "black listed people" if it wasnt a lacey act violation?
quote:
I would not.
Mike
Absolutely amazing.
It is apparently my burden to amaze the ignorant.
19 January 2011, 07:28
N E 450 No2No, And No...
I have hunted in Zim for 3 Safaris.
As a result I have met, and become friends with several "White Zimbabweans".
They are some of the finest people I have ever met.
I have become knowledgeable with the history of Rhodesia/Zimbabwe...
DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY
19 January 2011, 07:45
TWLI have hunted Zim three times. I hope to go back in 2012. I will chose an outfitter whom I believe is doing the right thing on his respective concession, one who is working to support the future of sport hunting in Zim. There is still hope for the Zim safari industry. There are still honorable professionals in the business who, we as clients, should support.
114-R10David
19 January 2011, 08:02
Saeedquote:
Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
Im just interested if you would hunt on confiscated land in Zimbabwe and with "black listed people" if it wasnt a lacey act violation. Would people be able to resist lower price etc.
Would it be ok to hunt on a confiscated farm if the new "owner" did right for himself and gave the old owner that was thrown out money every year ???
What do the outfitters from Zim say on this forum ? Martin etc ? Is it a NO NO.
Absolutely, positively NOT.
There is no such things confiscated land and the new owners paying money to the old owners.
If it is confiscated, they cannot have any of my business.
19 January 2011, 08:09
retreeverA few years ago at the Eastern sports Show there was an exhibitor who was booking hunts on confiscated land. Boy did he get his. First his booth was surrounded by ZIMph's outfitters who were hanging on by the skin of there teeth. Lo and behold the guy ran into some really ticked off Zimbabwean natural citizens and his clock was cleaned in the parking lot.
Mike
Michael Podwika... DRSS bigbores and hunting
www.pvt.co.za " MAKE THE SHOT " 450#2 Famars
19 January 2011, 15:38
martin pietersFor me, a NO, NO..
Perhaps better to get an answer from an evicted land owner, they may need the money, perhaps them getting something is better than nothing, many of them are destitute.
Mart
19 January 2011, 16:43
Bill Cquote:
Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
Im just interested if you would hunt on confiscated land in Zimbabwe and with "black listed people" if it wasnt a lacey act violation. No, absolutely not. Would people be able to resist lower price etc. I would hope people could resist but the problem is that I suspect some do not know, especially as time passes and/or the entity selling the hunt acts as though "it is no big deal".
Would it be ok to hunt on a confiscated farm if the new "owner" did right for himself and gave the old owner that was thrown out money every year ??? Are you presenting this just for discussion purposes, or are you aware of such a situation? Personally I would still stay away, there are too many great places to hunt.
19 January 2011, 17:10
smarterthanuquote:
It is apparently my burden to amaze the ignorant.
I think 505 is referring to your selective morality. You have found it not to be your burden to protect your own bretheren but will gladly stand in other peoples battles.
Next, Indians did not "own" land here.
Also if you hunt with people on the state departments no business list you are open to prosecution and very stiff fines, but I do not believe it is under the Lacey Act.
Lastly, no I would not hunt on said properties.
19 January 2011, 17:27
shakariI'm no lawyer and would welcome comment from someone who is but as I understand it, it's not impossible for a US citizen to be prosecuted under a number of acts for hunting on seized land, including under the Lacey Act.
As far as the LA is concerned, (as I understand it) anyone who breaks a game law whilst overseas can be prosecuted and as the true owner of the area (presumably) hasn't granted permission for the hunt, then the hunter would be in breach of the game laws.
The section entitled 'Considerations for Hunting Zimbabwe' here:
http://www.shakariconnection.c...unting-zimbabwe.html might also be of interest.
19 January 2011, 17:43
smarterthanuquote:
As far as the LA is concerned, (as I understand it) anyone who breaks a game law whilst overseas can be prosecuted and as the true owner of the area (presumably) hasn't granted permission for the hunt, then the hunter would be in breach of the game laws.
You are not breaking any Zim laws by hunting there, and as much as I hate to say it, the taken properties now belong to the takers, even if the whites were robbed from. Unless you shoot protected game on the property, or violate legal laws of hunting there or tresspass into other properties without permission, then the Lacey Act won't come into play. You will fall into 9 types of other hell though.
19 January 2011, 18:13
shakariI take your point and maybe Martin Pieters or Don can comment more knowledgeably but I seem to remember from previous threads that the game laws haven't been altered and that the permission of the actual landowner is still legally required.
If I'm right in that, then the hunter would be in breach of the LA.....
As you say though, even without prosecution, they deserve 9 types of hell for doing it.
19 January 2011, 18:23
Dutch44I didn't know the indians had a claim to any land. As far as I remember they never claimed any ownership or possessory interest in property. Who did they dispossess to acquire it? The Gauls, Mongols, Visigoths? Romans?
My PH was a former Zim resident who had his farm confiscated. He would be glad to weigh in on this topic.
Dutch
19 January 2011, 21:13
Michael Robinsonquote:
Originally posted by Dutch44:
I didn't know the indians had a claim to any land. As far as I remember they never claimed any ownership or possessory interest in property. Who did they dispossess to acquire it?
Dutch
You never heard the story about Pieter Minuit, who paid the equivalent of $24.00 to the local Native Americans for the island of Manhattan?
With a name like Dutch, I would have thought you'd know that!
Mike
Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer.
19 January 2011, 21:57
smarterthanuquote:
You never heard the story about Pieter Minuit, who paid the equivalent of $24.00 to the local Native Americans for the island of Manhattan?
You never heard the whole story. He paid the equivalent of $24 bucks in a swindle because he believed those indians owned that island. His glass bead deal never secured Manhattan Island for anyone.
19 January 2011, 22:17
ledvmquote:
Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
Im just interested if you would hunt on confiscated land in Zimbabwe and with "black listed people" if it wasnt a lacey act violation. Would people be able to resist lower price etc.
Would it be ok to hunt on a confiscated farm if the new "owner" did right for himself and gave the old owner that was thrown out money every year ???
What do the outfitters from Zim say on this forum ? Martin etc ? Is it a NO NO.
It would NEVER be OK with me.
I have friends from Zim with deep family roots that have been through this. I have felt their pain. I don't care if it was free and they were sending a plane to pick me up!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM
A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House
No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
19 January 2011, 22:20
ledvmquote:
As a result I have met, and become friends with several "White Zimbabweans".
They are some of the finest people I have ever met.
I have become knowledgeable with the history of Rhodesia/Zimbabwe...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM
A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House
No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
19 January 2011, 22:22
surestrikeNot a chance on either.
19 January 2011, 22:25
AlloutSimple answer...Hell no.
Regards,
Brian
"If you can't go all out, don't go..."
19 January 2011, 22:27
A.DahlgrenBill just for discussion purposes, but I can see it happend with perhaps mostly European hunters with no or less knowledge of Zimbabwe and as you say time goes by and people maybe tend to think that was a long time ago and its no big deal now.
19 January 2011, 22:31
ledvmquote:
time goes by and people maybe tend to think that was a long time ago and its no big deal now.
It was NOT that long ago...AND...it is still going on...it WILL ALWAYS be a BIG DEAL!
Just think about it...I have good friends not much older than I that fought in the Bush Wars.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM
A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House
No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
19 January 2011, 22:35
A.DahlgrenLane I agree but it seems that people do hunt theese farms...right ???
19 January 2011, 22:42
ledvmquote:
Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
Lane I agree but it seems that people do hunt theese farms...right ???
I am not sure.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM
A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House
No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
19 January 2011, 23:28
cable68As theorectical questions:
#1 probably. If it wasn't against the law, I probably wouldn't be looking into who the outfitters/PH's had as business partners.
#2 questionable. If it wasn't a legal issue, I'd probably just be checking into the quality of the hunting areas, which might be an indirect way of finding out if it was invaded. If I found out beforehand it was seized property I wouldn't go there, but honestly I probably wouldn't look to hard into it beforehand.
Remember, I said I was just answering this as a theoretical question, with the basic supposition that if it wasn't illegal, I'd just not be doing as much homework into it, and would be doing those unknowingly.
Caleb
20 January 2011, 15:55
KMG Hunting SafarisMy view is, that if you hunt on confiscated land,
you are basically supporting it.
So , no way!
If you are going there to hunt the president, well...
20 January 2011, 16:59
Small BoreI would not hunt in Zimbabwe with this regime in place full stop.
I was offered the chance to hunt there free with a friend who was on the point of booking a hunt two years ago and turned it down.
20 January 2011, 18:19
505 gibbsI would like to thank A. Dahlgren for posting this, It has been very informative.