quote:

My life experience has taught me that a large sustained frontal area (a bullet that does not sweep backwards when it expands like a badmitton birdie or a parachute) combined with high velocity will completely destroy the heart of the largest game animal, not just put a diameter or slightly larger hole through the heart!

Andy,

I am not advocating a Barnes-X over a tough bonded bullet. I just wanted to get your opinion in slightly more detail. I am actually with you on your preference with a strongly constructed controlled expansion soft. That is why I use Rhino's Solid Shank bullet that expands wider than a Barnes-X, but the Barnes-X will out-penetrate the Rhino.

Ganyana also prefers a similar bullet to the Bitteroot (that we do not get anymore in SA), namely a Ken Stewart bullet for buffalo hunting. Many other PH's use the Rhino bullet that are widely availble in SA.

I am not with you on your velocity preference of 2,800 fps. I see no need for anything above 2,350 fps with Rhino bullets in big-bore calibers. Moderate velocity keeps the bullet inside its threshold strength, minimizes weight loss, avoids broken petals as far as possible, yielding wide mushrooms, reduces stagnation pressure and penetration is always good, provided you don't drop your striking velocity too low to the point that the bullet opens up only a little or not at all.

I also do not place any value on petals that shear off early in the penetration path.

Chris

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:


And by the way no one but no one on this site has "proven" anything regarding the size of their entry wounds.

I have seen no "proof" here to conclude that the entry wounds of expanding or non expanding projectiles are in fact bigger than the maximum outside diameter of the presenting part of the impacting projectile and the rules regarding the mechanism by which projectiles expand and fragment have not been altered.

quote:

Canuck, do you think your Dad would let you take the next bison with your 416 Taylor? Do me a favor and ask him. I know you have a few NF bullets, do you have any 416 softs?

Hey Don, sadly, my bison whacking days may be over. My Dad has just a few head left (he gave almost all of them away because he was almost out of water and hay due to the extreme drought at the ranch this summer), and he may be getting out of it altogether.

If the opportunity arises to go up there to get some meat, I will happily try and 416T one. Depending on the circumstance he might let me do it. I only have NF cups though. I was using the AFrame for my soft.

Cheers,
Canuck

Chris,

My experience with Rhinos are limited to one caliber, .458 in 425 and 485 grain.

I have not killed anythng with them other than water buckets.

I trust them as a bison substitute, and they did not hold together at the velocity I was shooting them.



This was only 2,441 fps for the 485 grain (pictured) and 2,657 fps for the 425 grain which actually did better since it was a semi spitzer and had delayed expansion compared to the RN-FN 485 grain.

My deffinition of a "premium" bullet is one that can be fired at higher than normal velocity at point blank range in a bullet weight with lower than normal SD (like the 400 grain .458) and still hold together, yet expand at long range when fired from a standard velocity cartridge.

That is a very high standard that very few bullets actually can claim.



Pictured are 400 and 450 grain North Fork fired at point blank adn 100 yards at much higher velocity than the Rhino. (2,700 and 2,550 fps).

I realize shooters in RSA do not have the wide selection of bullets that we do in the USA, and I would probably be reducing velocity and using Rhino's or Stewart bullets if I lived in your country.

I really wish I had some Stewarts to test for my article on premium 458 caliber bullets. But he has no distributor here.

Thankyou for your questions.

Andy

Andy,
Would you like to try some of these? (450gr .458 at 2500fps into water)

Gerard,

Of course I would like to test them!

Is this the HV?

It is not too late to get your HV into the test of premium 458 caliber bullets for African Hunter.

I am still writing photo captions.

Greater than 25mm expansion, and petals that remain intact is excellent! (Like a Banres X that works!)

What velocity was this bullet recovered at?

PS If you did not keep my address from the 450 grain FN a few years ago, e mail me or send a PM.

Thankyou, Andy

Andy,

Shooting bullets into water is much harder than shooting flesh, and is not representative to assess a bullet as to its performance on game. I am sure you know it. I must say that the pictures of the NF softs that you published are truely amazing - they seem to have a wider velocity window than any other premium Soft that I have seen so far. Pity we can't get them here in SA.

Mark Radloff, a PH, did extensive tests with .458/500 gr Rhino bullets in Tanzania on various animals, mostly buffalo. He loads his 458 Lott to 2,220 fps and obtained very good results - 88.6% weight retention. Many other PH's use the Rhino soft bullet in big bore calibers today. So try your Rhino's one day on Bison to see how they fare, but at a velocity that is typical of a 458 Lott (approx. 2,250 fps)

In smaller calibers though, such as 9,3 and 7 mm bullets (in 7x57), the weight retention on game is generally above 95%, as the lead component to copper is less. The .458 bullet has relatively speaking more lead frontal area that gets worn off. I still maintain that the ideal striking velocity of the Rhino bullets lies between 2,000 and 2,200 fps.

Petals that shear off before the bullet is through the heart is not ideal in my opinion.

Chris

Various clients used my .404 Jeffery and Rhino SPs on a recent trip to Tanzania...... they were used at ranges from about 25 - 75 yards (ish) and performed dreadfully...... not a single one expanded at all.... one was used on a texas heart shot on a Buff and the bullet travelled the entire length of the animal and exited out of the nose.....exit hole was the same size as the entrance hole.

The rifle took at least 5 or 6 Buff plus various plains game and the exit holes were all the same size as the entrance holes in all cases.

I clocked the rifle when I returned home and the muzzle velocity was a little over 2250 fps.

/

Chris,

The nylon water buckets I used for my test of premium 458 bullets correlates to live african buffalo 90% for expansion and 95% for weight retention.



The late George Hoffman compared my bullets to his vast collection of 416's.



The IWBA has demonstrated that water alone does over expand a bullet, but the nylon buckets sweep back the expanded mushroom or petals ina fashion that correlates very closely to buffalo.

Notice how similar the 400 and 450 grain North Forks are to bullets recovered in water.



This was just dumb luck on my part, but sometimes I'd rather be lucky than good!

Backing off just 75 fps with the Rhino's had a beneficial effect on their performance.



This is not a premium bullet to me since it is so sensative (at least in this caliber) to very small increases in muzzle velocity.

The problems that Steve and Alf allude to (lack of expansion) is not too hard to figure out. The Rhino in .458 has a 3mm thick (no taper), ogive. The alloy appears to be quite brittle despite annealing.



You can see the very thick meplat thickness here. Pictured; 485 grain cut in two, unfired, and 425 grain.

There is as much craft as science in making a premium bullet, and the North Forks have it. If you can buy them, why use anything else?



Pictured left to right; 450 grain Barnes X, North Fork, Swift, Kodiak.

Andy

Just back from the Zim proficiency exam. Ganyana was recovering bullets as usual and there were some suprises. I will ask Terry Carr to put some of them up on the forum- including the ones I took of buffalo hearts and what bulletd did (and didn't) do.

The real disapointmets were federal trophy bonded solids ( one hit a tusk base, made it through one side of the tusk and disintergrated in the nerve) and the new Hornady 500grn solids fired from the .458 lotts. Sectioned one to find out why every single one failed- good job norma is bringing out a new line of "PH" ammo with decent bullets.

Andy,

quote:

There is as much craft as science in making a premium bullet

Well said.

I will e-mail you regarding the HV bullets.

quote:

The problems that Steve and Alf allude to (lack of expansion) is not too hard to figure out. The Rhino in .458 has a 3mm thick (no taper), ogive.

Hi Andy,

The first generation bullets that came out were not guided with cut-grooves inside the drilled hole. Therefore the bigger bore bullets from 404 Jeff and up, with their thick wall jackets, did not expand reliably. They (Steve & Alf) must still have had some of the very first batches.

Today, all Rhino bullets from 9,3 cal and up are guided to aid intial expansion.

Chris

Chris,

I only bought the bullets in the middle of August, so I'd be suprised if they were "1st generation" - Especially as the shop I bought them from is fairly busy and I'd have thought would have a fairly high turnover.

FWIW, I also had to put each bullet in a lathe and machine 1 thou off of the side walls before I could close the bolt on the rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Chris,

I only bought the bullets in the middle of August, so I'd be suprised if they were "1st generation" - Especially as the shop I bought them from is fairly busy and I'd have thought would have a fairly high turnover.

FWIW, I also had to put each bullet in a lathe and machine 1 thou off of the side walls before I could close the bolt on the rifle.

Steve,
I'm confused, why would you seat a bullet so long that it would engage the riflings when the bolt was closed? Am I missing something? The COAL should be set to at most slightly kiss the riflings but not enter the bore. If your bolt want close I would question cartridge length first. Did you mic the OD of the bullets before you turned them down?

I hadn't planned on taking the .404 to Tanzania this trip as it was a new rifle and I was still playing around with loads. 2 or 3 days before I was due to go, I received a call from my buddy Pierre who needed an extra scoped rifle urgently. - So I had to load ammo very quickly.

My personal choice of bullet type would have been GS Custom MS (I love 'em to bits) and either Woodleigh SP or as an alternative, I'd have tried the GS Custom HV...... time pressure meant I had to buy whatever my local gunshop had on the shelves..... which was Rhino SP and Sabi MS.

I was using brand new cases which I measured and found correct. I was obviously seating the bullets to give me a crimp in the crimping groove and case length and overall length was correct. However, the bolt wouldn't close on any of the Rhino SP bullets. (I'm not a gunsmith so can't comment on the technicalities of why!) I used the same cases with Sabi MS and they were fine. I was running out of time now and on the day I was due to fly to TZ, I had to call Sabi and Rhino for advice. Needless to say, both conflicted with each other. although it wasn't anything to do with GS Custom, I also called Gerard for his advice and he even offered to send me anything I needed overnight and I could sort payment when I arrived back in SA. Very kind of him indeed, but I just didn't have time even for that......

To cut a long story shorter, as the Sabi MS rounds cycled perfectly, I figured the fault had to be with the Rhino bullets..... Sabi Rifles were fantastic..... on the busiest day of their week and the day I was due to fly out they told me to bring the rifle, ammo and everything else down to the shop..... The guys in the workshop were waiting for me when I arrived and got to measuring etc immediatly. They soon worked out that if they pulled the bullets and took a thousandth of an inch off the side wall of the bullet and reloaded them they would be fine..... and they were right.

So that at least gave me ammo for the hunt. Penetration on both types of bullet were phenomenal, however, the softs all exited and exit holes were all the same size as the entrance holes...... that to me indicates there was no expansion.

The solids all whistled through One was found to have exited a Buff, shot through a 30 (ish) inch circumference tree and three quarters of the way through a second tree of the same size. The tracker dug it out and other than the rifling marks it looked perfect. - I wasn't personally on that hunt (Pierre was PHing those clients) but the clients told me about it that evening. - and showed me the bullet...... the trackers were also full of the story!

Make of that what you will...... I'm not suggesting all Rhino bullets are bad, but that's what happened to me on that occasion and it's enough to make me not prepared to buy any more of their products.

.

Chris, Steve, Alf,

Thank you for your replies.

My 458 Rhinos were purchsed last summer ( a little more than one year ago) from the US distributor in US prior to their going out of business sale.

I sectioned both the 425 and 485 grain bullets and they do not appear to have the grooves cut into the thick side walls to aid expansion.

Chris, can you give me any details on this? How many grooves, how deep? I will include it in my AH article.

There are other problems with their design. The semi spitzerhas the copper side wall intruding so far into the meplat that there is very little lead exposed. The sectioned bullet has a lead core that is shaped kind of like a bowling pin. The bullet would probably be much better if the used a punch to shape the HP into a deep V rather than had the straight taper, even with the grooves cut into it.

At least they care and are trying. This is where the "craft" comes in.

I have seen many photos like that Alf has posted, of Rhinos that work well. The ones that are recovered will always have large expansion, and that of course is why they were recovered. I think most of us are concerned about the ones that are not recovered, and did not expand or fractured their petals off. So you will probably never see those unless it is from an artificial test medium like mine.

Alf, your american bison was shot with a 404 as I recall, and at traditional (2,250 fps or so) rather than modern velocity wasn't it?

I recall your story of woe after the hunt, but it has been awhile?

A bullet of that SD should have no problem expanding at this velocity or a few hundred fps higher.

I recall I responded to your post back then that I had good luck on bison with a 375 improved and that they "liked a bit of velocity."

Andy

quote:

I sectioned both the 425 and 485 grain bullets and they do not appear to have the grooves cut into the thick side walls to aid expansion. Chris, can you give me any details on this? How many grooves, how deep? I will include it in my AH article.

Hi Andy,

Unfortunately I cannot answer your questions personally, as it involves technical aspects of design criteria and manufacturing methods. Your second question is totally beyond me.

I am only a user of his bullets - mostly other calibers up to .375 and can thus only report on those that I have tried. I have never tried his .458 bullets as I do not own such a caliber.

Actually, I have nothing to do with the Rhino Bullet company, and as such, your questions are better directed at Kobus van der Westhuizen of Rhino Bullets. You will have to e-mail him directly - you can find his e-mail adddress on his website or on his ammo box.

Ripping petals off is one scenario, and not opening up is another problem and they have two seperate causes.

Hope you come right and looking forward to your article.

Chris

Chris,

What animals have you shot with the .375 350 grain Rhino, and how did they perform? Did they open up early, late or not at all? Thank you.

quote:

What animals have you shot with the .375 350 grain Rhino, and how did they perform? Did they open up early, late or not at all? Thank you.

Dan,

My son hunts with the 375 H&H, whereas I shoot mostly with my 9,3 x 62. My son hunts with the Rhino 300 grainers and they perform very well at a muzzle velocity of 2,350 fps (mild load for the bush). He tried various bullets and standardized on that bullet.

I have tested the 350 grainer only in wetpack tests, and there it opened up as expected in a nice mushroom. The 350 grainer utilizes far less lead as the drilled hole is not so deep, and it is in Spitzer configuration as opposed to the round nose of the 380 grainer. I think my son shot one Blue Wildebeest with a 350 grainer when I was not present, and it was right through, so we do not know what the bullet looks like.

The 300 gr .375 bullet is adequate for the hunting that we do. The 350 and 380 grainer were attempts to increase the bullet mass for buffalo hunters. They are long bullets and erode a lot of powder space and so velocity generally drops off to 2,240 fps 2,180 fps respectively for the 350 and 380 grainer.

My son prefers the 300 grainer as it has far less recoil, and it is a more versatile load for game hunting generally.

Chris

Chris, thanks for the info. I envision the 350 gr. as a good eland bullet, and perhaps for giraffe if I can convince myself not to use solids. On the one kudu that I used one on, it appeared to be too hard.

Dan

quote:

FWIW, I also had to put each bullet in a lathe and machine 1 thou off of the side walls before I could close the bolt on the rifle.

Hi Steve,

It sounds to me that the bullet was too long and it got stuck in the lands, resulting in non-closure of the bolt. Either your rifle has a throat that is shorter than standard, or the crimping groove should have been furher back on the bullet.

I suggest you provide the manufacturer with the detailed measurements of your ammo/chamber size and throat length. If there is a problem at least it can be sorted out.

That way we will also know if is was the bullet or the rifle not complying with CIP specifications.

Regards
Chris

Yup, it sounds like a freebore problem, but hard to be sure without both the bullets and the rifle in hand.

I measured the bullets in every way possible.... and the fault wasn't in the rifle, it was in the bullets. I've also loaded a range of other bullets (and one or two makes of factory loaded rounds) into the rifle without any problems at all. these include:- Woodleigh and a few others.

I'm not suggesting all Rhino bullets are bad, I've seen too many good reports of them elsewhere for that.......but I certainly won't be using any more of them.

Even if it were a freebore problem..... which it isn't, it wouldn't explain why all the bullets failed to expand.

Steve,

What was the measurement of the bullets ahead of the crimp groove?

quote:

or the crimping groove should have been furher back on the bullet.

You mean further forward.

Hell,
i've done 2 or 3 months hunting since then! - Needless to say, I don't remember and didn't keep the measurements of all the different bullets I measured....... but it was a brand new custom built rifle and everything else I measured/checked was absolutely spot on....... there's absolutely no doubt in my mind the problem lay with the bullets themselves.

I've got various other types of bullets being delivered later this week and will also try them - but I'll bet a pound to a pinch of the brown stuff they'll all be OK. - As I said previously, even if it were the rifle, which it isn't, it still wouldn't explain why the bullets failed to expand at all........ If a soft point bullet travels the entire length of a Buffalo and exits out of the nose with the exit hole the same size as the entrance hole there has to be something wrong with the construction of the bullet somewhere.

I don't see any point in contacting the bullet manufacturer at all...... I'll never use another of his products and all the other bullets I've tried don't give me any problems.....

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
it was a brand new custom built rifle and everything else I measured/checked was absolutely spot on.......

There are a lot of custom rifles out there which depart from established chamber standards. I have owned rifles that needed chamber clean up and/or neck reaming. Measuring the bullets ahead of the crim groove would help to shed some light on what happened. As would a chamber cast.

As for the bullets not expanding, I offer no defense.

DOH! I edited when I meant to quote myself and then edit, so here it is quoted to the end of the thread. See wound photos at bottom, please.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Let's keep this interesting thread going, awaiting the heavies, here's an example of good performance by a NorthFork Semispitzer Soft Point:

.423 caliber 380-grain
2526 fps at 15 feet from the muzzle
404 Jeffery, 1:10" twist McGowen rifling

Impact range about 75 yards.
Target: 3.5 year-old bison bull of 1350 tasty pounds.

Entered rib cage behind the left shoulder, creating a larger than caliber entrance wound and causing lung and blood to spray out of the entrance hole as the bull staggered 8 steps and fell over dead.

The bullet broke a rib going in, traversed the chest, lacerating the great vessels from the top of the heart, and passed through the right shoulder joint where it caused breakage of both humerus and scapula. It stopped in the offside shoulder muscle, and did not make it to the offside hide.

Retained weight was 95% IIRC:







I am guessing that any poor results with a North Fork might be dependent on the medium used to catch bullets, if not live game.

The North Fork SP seems to be explosively fast opening at low and high velocity, and hangs together with excellent bonding of the nose, and hammers home well with the solid, grooved shank guaranteeing good retained weight. They are also very accurate and foul little.

Driving them at even higher velocity might fold the petals back a little flatter, or at least they will reach a maximum expansion and have some velocity left to drive deeper, if they start off faster.

I have not seen the tests referred to, but would like to see some more specifics, on the calibers, weights, velocities, and test medium of the North Forks if they are getting poor results.

North Forks put out the drag chutes quickly even at low velocity (doing some impressive wounding in the process), and this drag needs to be overcome with higher velocity. Another new rule.


Here are the wounds referred to above: larger than caliber entrance wound.

I am still wondering about the mechanism.

Hanging 1350 lbs. of young bull: the wound is at the border where the dark body fur becomes blond "mane."


A quarter beside the bullet entrance hole. The coin is about 24 mm diameter, or about 0.95" diameter. I estimate the bullet hole as .51" x .98", or 13 mm x 25 mm. The bullet was .423 caliber, 10.75 mm.

The broken rib beneath the entrance wound, viewed from inside the chest. Does this have something to do with the ragged, big entrance wound?

quote:

Entered rib cage behind the left shoulder, creating a larger than caliber entrance wound and causing lung and blood to spray out of the entrance hole as the bull staggered 8 steps and fell over dead. I am still wondering about the mechanism.

RIP,
On another thread I gave my take on permanent and temporary wound channel formation. The only explanation for a larger than caliber entrance hole is that you are looking at the addition the temporary cavity has made to the crush cavity. We have not been using quite the right terminology again. The permanent wound channel being the combined result of the crush cavity and the temporary cavity.

Gerard,
I read that thread previously, like rubber necking a traffic accident as I drive by.

Are you implying that the bullets that make larger than caliber entrance holes are expanded when they impact? Or is it something like jeffeosso's sonic shock wave on the nose of the bullet that "crushes" the hide into a bigger than caliber entrance hole?

What is the mechanism? Can it be reproduced for slow motion close-up photography to study the entrance hole being formed?

quote:

The temporary cavity is formed as a result of the speed imparted to the tissue as it is displaced by the passing bullet.

The bullet does not have to be expanded to achieve this.

quote:

If the size of the temporary cavity exceeds the elasticity of the tissue, tissue is disrupted and the temporary cavity contributes to the size of the permanent cavity.

Speed is highest at impact and even the resilience of skin will not withstand such an impact without some residual temporary cavity damage that adds to the crush cavity. (Thus forming a larger than caliber hole.)

Recently I shot a level 3 body armour ceramic plate with a 150gr HV at 3100fps (30-06). The plate was supported vertically against an earth embankment at 100m. The recovered bullet had expanded and was recovered 19cm (7.5") into the embankment behind the plate. The bullet tumbled going into the earth. Weight retention was 135.6gr. The plate had a 19mm x 24mm hole through the fibreglass cover front and rear and the ceramic plate was destroyed in an 8.5cm (3.5") circle. It is a good example of the entire temporary cavity volume adding to the crush cavity.

Makes sense that it would be mostly a result of tissue factors and bullet speed.

Note that the long axis of the oversize entrance hole is roughly perpendicular to the rib long axis. So the wound elongated more in the unsupported directions of the skin draping between the ribs ...

The 380-grain/.423-caliber .404 Jeffery bullet (North Fork soft)that did this was going about 2500 fps.

The GSC FN Solid 380-grain/.416-caliber at 2500 fps cut a caliber sized hole in my cape buffalo going in. The entrance hole was in hide backed by the firm expanse (more consistent "tissue factors" or uniform support in all directions of the plane) of shoulder muscle. The exit hole was bigger going out the off side as it ripped through the hide supported by the backing of air, even though the bullet was much slower exiting.

Now where was THAT cape buffalo entrance wound picture ...

Here is that cookie cutter caliber size entrance hole from another one shot killer bullet, the GSC FN .416/380-grains at 2500 fps:

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
If the size of the temporary cavity exceeds the elasticity of the tissue, tissue is disrupted and the temporary cavity contributes to the size of the permanent cavity.

This being the case, perhaps some people are making the inference that a temporary cavity is only temporary. But in the field we see that the actual wound channel in the animal is so large that it cannot be accounted for by crush factor, so it must have been caused by temporary cavity.

Dan,

quote:

We have not been using quite the right terminology again. The permanent wound channel being the combined result of the crush cavity and the temporary cavity.

Some time back it was the norm to speak about the primary and the secondary wound channel. The primary channel being that part of the wound channel caused by the direct crushing of the tissue by the bullet and the secondary channel being caused by the other factors as the bullet passes through the tissue. It is difficult to say where we lost the plot.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
Dan,

quote:

We have not been using quite the right terminology again. The permanent wound channel being the combined result of the crush cavity and the temporary cavity.

Some time back it was the norm to speak about the primary and the secondary wound channel. The primary channel being that part of the wound channel caused by the direct crushing of the tissue by the bullet and the secondary channel being caused by the other factors as the bullet passes through the tissue. It is difficult to say where we lost the plot.

Probably when they started passing off standardized ordnance gelatin as a substitute for living tissue in handgun tests.

The temporary and the crush wound channels are both fleeting mechanisms that form the final product, the "secondary" wound channel in real tissue.

The variable production of larger-than-caliber entrance wounds does point to tissue factor variables in their production.

Thanks for clearing this up, Gerard.

BTW, where is my tracking number?

quote:

Probably when they started passing off standardized ordnance gelatin as a substitute for living tissue in handgun tests.

RIP,

The National Institute For Justice (NIJ) tests of all available handgun ammo in the US in the late 1970's made the 90 grain 9mm and 110 grain 38 special look like Giant killers due to the 20% NATO gelatin leaving fracture lines from the temporary cavity.

The 125 grain 357 and 200 grain 44 magnum were probably the only readily available bullets whose temorary cavity actually corresponded to the sustained pressure required to rupture tissue.

It took awhile for all of us to figure that out.

The 5.56 mm permanant cavity actually did and still does correspond to the TC. It will create about a 7 cm hole in human bowel and also does so in gelatin.

The NIJ tests used the infamous computer man and overlapped TC to his vital organs, a great idea but not all bad guys are shot front on. Some genius concluded you only needed 5.5 inches penetration.

One of the best loads from this era was the 158 grain SWC-HP in a 38 spl in a SW mod 10 or 13.

Take home lesson, dont dis gelatin, just the guys who analyze the data!

Andy

Andy,
Thanks for the excellent technohistorical insights, as usual from you.

Ordnance gelatin is fine for handgun models. Not real enough for hunting rifles, I am sure you will agree.