For you hunters and their booking agents that have a real interest hunting/selling hunts in Tz but the recession is making you/your clients think twice, what action would you like to see taken by the Gov/Authorities/outfitters that would make you commit to booking a hunt?

Is it only about lowering costs/fees?

And if so, by how much should they be lowered to ensure hunters keep booking?

Lower all Government fees etc considerably and have the Government commit to keeping those fees low until at least the end of the 2012 season and legalise split licences.

I think the species/licences etc and also the minimums should remain pretty much the same as they are now. Sure if you altered those, it'd make the marketing easier, but it wouldn't do the game populations any good at all.......

Also scrap the TZ citizen involvement for leases etc. I understand why they do it but history has proved it only stuffs things up in the long term. The criteria for getting areas should be that they go to the people best qualified to manage them and pay the fees on time rather than to whoever has the closest friends in high places.

But then again, I'd like to be 8 inches taller, 30 years younger 20 lbs lighter and 10 million (US not Zim) dollars richer............. but that ain't gonna happen either!

What Steve said to the letter! And yes Steve, I'm still working on the Time Machine. Will let you have the first test run when I'm finished
Cheers,
David

David,

Just as long as it works the right way...... if it works the wrong way and makes me shorter, older, heavier or poorer, I'm in the shit big time.

A simple roll back to the old fees would probably suffice. That provides enough of an "across the board" discount to make it viable.

That fee increase crippled the industry before the recession took hold.

Michele,

What are the chances the gov't will actually do anything with the pricing and safari structure?

I think the gov't should set the quotas based on biological sustainability, charge a modest trophy fee for each animal taken, charge a fair concession fee, then allow the outfitter to sell for whatever he wants to sell for based on the market.

They should not force minimum days, community fees, etc, etc, etc... on the outfitter. Let the outfitters decide the minimum days, pricing, etc.

I doubt the entrenched outfitters and the insiders in the TZ hunting biz will tolerate radical change. I don't have to tell you how the big players have been pulling the strings in TZ for years. With the massive gov't fee increases 2 years ago their chickens have come home to roost. Maybe this recession is dramatic enough to be "the" opportunity to get it squared away over there but I somehow doubt it.

If the Pasanisi's of the world can charge $3,000 per day god bless them...but those operators who can't should be able to sell for less. That's the free market.

TZ is one of the best hunting destinations on earth in terms of habitat and game, and a few really good operators, but the system over there has been broken for a long time. I really hope they find a way to fix it.

Todd

Actually Tanzania can do a world of good to themselves and hunters if they changes their silly sytem of selling concessions.

People have to $3,000 per day not because the government charges high rents for the concession, but the concessions are given to politically connected individuals, who in turn sell those concessions to outsiders at considerably more - several 1,000% more in fact.

I think the bes syetm was in Zimbabwe.

The concession holder had to run it, and despite concession fees in Zimbabwe were several times higher than in Tanzania, their prices were lower for us as hunters.

Saeed,

I wasn't aware that it was done that way but not surprised. That practice should end for certain. Zim's system was CAMPFIRE right?

Todd

It is the companies who do not sublet, and who are managing their blocks responsibly, who are doing the best for the game and the hunters. The government cannot be trusted to do that. Plain and simple

The government turns a blind eye to rampant and illegal subletting of blocks.

Why? Corruption.

And the subletters, and the suitcase PHs who take the subleases and hunt the sublet blocks relentlessly, are the ones who are doing the most harm.

The trophy fees do need to come down. The many ancillary fees paid to the government for upkeep of the concessions, maintenance of the villages, and on and on, are enough. Tanzania will lose out if the these fees and the trophy fees both are kept at levels that the world economy cannot support.

Still, in the end, Tanzania is expensive because, like divorce, when it is needed, the expense is worth it - nay, well worth it - and more.

Everything everyone has said is good. Bottom line is a lot of people are not going to spend that type of dicretionary money in an environment like this. Especially after most of us have taken huge hits because of the rampant fraudulent escapades of those in the financial industry. So the only way to entice them to let loose of what cash they have is lower the prices substantially. Once you find the point where this makes them comfortable again they will come I believe. The down side is you guys also take a big hit in this. It is trying to find that balance point to stay afloat that is tough. I know at this point I have no plans for this year - at least yet. If things come down enough I may come even for just a short and relatively cheap hunt but emotionally I am not there yet.

IMHO, they need to offer assurance that they are NOT going to make changes AFTER people booked their hunts.

They need to roll back trophy fees to the pre 07 amounts.

They need to provide more guidance to game scouts to make sure that they help the hunt be an enjoyable experience. They should be schooled about being disruptive, combative and seeking bribes.

quote:

seeking bribes

If they didn't, then Mark Sullivan would not have made such a killing from all his "charging" buffalos

quote:

quote:
seeking bribes



If they didn't, then Mark Sullivan would not have made such a killing from all his "charging" buffalos

Go to the Selous Msolva Sector and you find the worst Game Scouts when it comes to "TIPS"
ALL of them Love to work with Mr. Mark

Seloushunter

There's an easy answer to the 'tip' issue. Just don't do anything wrong and then there's no need to pay the buggers anything other than the ordinary traditional tip at the end of the hunt......and that's based on performance.

If they make life easy for you by pitching in with the work etc, then fine, if they don't, they get nothing.

The only thing I expect from a game scout is to keep quiet, walk along at the back and keep out of my way. ......... It works a treat fo me.

Tz gov't shot itself in the foot 2 years ago but the pain is just now being felt. eventually it had to happen-unsold weeks and weeks of hunting time equal lost government revenue. the various booking agents who ballyhoo sold out seasons this year are now few and far between.

One game scout in particular was problematic from the word go. We were doing nothing wrong. He tried to stir up trouble for things like "illegal woodcutting". We were trimming overhanging branches on roads.

He told us we could only hunt from an hour AFTER sunrise until an hour BEFORE sunset and that we had to be back in camp by dark.

He let it be known that he could overlook our infractions for a small fee.

Geoffrey Asinga was his name. He is a first class prick.

Jdollar, I agree with you.

The hell of it is is that I am going back due to the drop in prices. The govt is going to get their same fee.

I don't know how much it would help inthe big picture, but I do know of a few "average joe's" that avoid Tanzania not only for its cost, but the fact that so few species are available on a 10 day licence.

As an example, I would dearly love to get a croc (in combo with a buffalo hunt), but its really not very affordable in Tanz when you consider a 16 day licence is needed.

I've been thinking what to contribute to this thread that isn't just about how expensive it is to hunt in Tanzania. I think Canuck has struck on the only thing that would seem doable to me. Allowing more species on a short license would make the buffalo hunts far more attractive. Allowing a hippo, croc, waterbuck or whatever to be added to a 10 day hunt as long as there were game numbers to sustain the increase in off take would be great in my opinion.

Mark

I think it's very tempting to juggle with things like what species on what licences and particularly to add species (esp) to shorter licences, but lets not forget that those restrictions and the trophy minimums are largely what has ensured Tanzania has kept its high game populations and good quality hunting etc.

I'd think a lot of consultation with people such as Prof Baldus etc would be required before anything more than minimal tweaking were done....... the problem with that of course, that it would take time. (Admittedly, he's already done a lot of similar work in his previous report, but I'd have thought it would need some updating at least).

Tanzania has always been expensive but it's always had great hunting and some of the best true wilderness areas in Africa and I think it's essential that they retain those two things.

One also needs to remember that Tanzania is never going to be able to compete on a price basis alone with countries such as Zimbabwe simply because of the remoteness of the areas and additional problems with ease of supply etc.

quote:

The only thing I expect from a game scout is to keep quiet, walk along at the back and keep out of my way. ......... It works a treat fo me

It would have been great if our game scout had done this; he was an absolutely corrupt a**wipe who was constantly trying to get a bribe. It got to be a real pain as the hunt went on. The only thing that was entertaining from this POS was when my hunting partner missed a shot and the game scout saw dollar signs dancing in his eyes from a drop of blood (so he thought) on the ground. One of our trackers looked closer at the "drop" of blood and poked it with his finger. The "drop" of blood sprouted wings and the lady bug flew off, with all the game scout's dollar sign along for the flight. The look on that a**holes face was worth its weight in gold.

Probably more likely to be a Christmas Beetle than a ladybug........ esp if you were hunting late in the season.... they look like they're covered in bright red velvet or like bright red drops of blood when you look at 'em close up.

Game scouts learn that illegal bullshit pays from unethical professional hunters and clients. If there was not the opportunity for them to sweep a game violation under the rug and get paid for it they wouldn't do it.

The ones I've had have been very helpful, a great asset to the crew and I'm sure I would not have gotten a very fine sitatunga without the help of Gideon a Zambian game scout in the Bangweulu. They were tipped accordingly and we parted company with smiles all around.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Game scouts learn that illegal bullshit pays from unethical professional hunters and clients. If there was not the opportunity for them to sweep a game violation under the rug and get paid for it they wouldn't do it.

The ones I've had have been very helpful, a great asset to the crew and I'm sure I would not have gotten a very fine sitatunga without the help of Gideon a Zambian game scout in the Bangweulu. They were tipped accordingly and we parted company with smiles all around.

Mark

Mark,

I totally agree with you, but let us not forget outfitters and booking agents who don't do their job and then have to force both clients and PH to bribe the game scout so they can actually hunt.


A case in point is when the clients arrive to hunt, and no license is ready for them. So some sort of "accommodation" has to be reached with the game scout, otherwise there is not going to be any hunting.

There are crooks in every form of life, in they are the ones who open the door for this sort of behaviour.

In Tanzania, I personally have never had a bad game scout.

In fact all the ones I have hunted with have been very helpful.

Great thread. I have had really good luck over the years with Tanz game scouts. I think Saeed said it best that there are bad apples in all walks of life. I do think , on average, Zim scouts seem to be the best combo of hard workers without the greed factor. One common thing I have noticed in several countries where game scouts are mandatory is that the TOP OUTFITS get the bribe mentality fixed long before the safari starts.Experienced PH's and camp managers are no nonsense folks who will not tolerate the clients being targeted by the game scouts. If you enjoyed a non hassle safari in that regard, believe me , someone ''fixed the problem'' long before you arrived.

I've only been to TZ once on a 7 day (working stiff and all that), but had a great game scout who pitched in and never asked for anything. OTOH, some Brazilians in camp wounded a buff because the younger Brazilian insisted on his father taking the first shot with an '06 while he backed his dad up with a .375. The son managed to hit the buff in the ass as he headed for Zambia and was never seen again. Their game scout made a few bucks out of that one.

I have only had one that was a problem. The rest were great except for perhaps gun safety.

The single bad one helped wreck a hunt. It was an ugly situation. I was going to leave it was so bad. Danny McCallum stepped in and the matter was resolved when a letter of reprimand was delivered to the game scout.

My only experiance with game scouts was in 2004 hunting buff in the Omay. Two days running, the game scout failed to meet us at a pre-arranged pickup location, and couldn't be tracked down even at his house/hut. Easy solution, we went hunting without him! (Succesfully)