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Originally posted by yukon delta:
What I find interesting in regards to big calibers on DG is the following...

- Will has shot about 20 elephants and I think all of them were with a .470 or lesser caliber. None of his missed brain shots have knocked the elephant out (to my knowledge).

- Dan has shot about 15 elephant and I believe that all of them were with various .50 calibers and up. My understanding is that Dan's missed brain shots resulted in every ele being knocked out.

Both guys have done a good bit of elephant hunting and both are good shots. Both have missed brain shots and the results have been very different.

I read a lot about this subject, talk to everyone I can find with experience (both client and PH) and there is something tangible about stepping up in caliber that is hard to measure but definitely there.

I don't know about Will but I do know that I have knocked down and out 4 elephants where the bullets missed the brain or at least missed the immediately dead portion of the brain. I have also knocked down and paralyzed 3 elephants with brain shots where the elephant was conscious but unable to get back up. I believe all of these were due to shots that hit non immediate cause of death brain hits. Calibers included the 465 3 1/4", 470 and 458 Lott.

465H&H

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I believe all of these were due to shots that hit non immediate cause of death brain hits.

You mean they hit the brain but didn't kill the elephant?

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Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
There is no perfect DG rifle or caliber. Use (375+) what you can shoot the best, like that has never been said before. All the rest is just educatrional talk i e BS,MS, PHD. Bull Shit, More Shit, Piled High and Deep!

I`m agree with you. The most important is that you shoot much with your dangerous game rifle either it`s 375 or a 458.
You got to know the rifle as your own hand, then you can shoot what you like with a 375, I also have a 375 H&H Mag and I`m practice a lot this rifle (sako Finnbear) is a excellent caliber too shoot with, I can shoot with the rifle in contact with the cheek and reload. I love it.

Even big ele and tuff buff`s can`t stand a perfect shot, they got to die. The 375 is a proper caliber for DG as well for PG.
It`s the person behind that`s matter`s. A bad shooter don`t get better with a heavy caliber, It`s because he got scared of the recoil because he don`t practice with the rifle


Waterbuck shot with my favorite rifle Sako Finnbear 375 H&H Mag

I love this topic…

Has anyone else watched the brain shot sequences in the Buzz Charlton video? There are several ele, both cow and bull where the brain is missed by a large margin and the ele is knocked down and in some cases killed outright. In one case a guy shoots a bull way too high and forward, missing the brain by what must be a foot or more and that ele was killed outright. In another sequence a guy shoots a big bodied bull in what looks to be just the right spot for a frontal brain shot and the ele staggers but does not even fall down!!
What happened?? I can only conclude that in some cases the bullet does not penetrate in a straight line. Sometimes it works in your favor, others not.

Reviewing the film it does appear (as Taylor wrote) that larger calibers are more likely to stun an elephant if the brain is missed. I really did not believe that until I watched the Charlton video.

Andy Hunter, who worked for Zim Parks for over a decade told me that the culling teams worked in groups of six, three primary shooters and three backups. Most ele were shot with 308 hardball! Large cows and bulls were shot with 375 or 458. I think this demonstrates (as written by Bell) that smaller calibers can be effective on ele brain shots, especially in the hands of a cool, experienced man.

For elephant, I opt for as large a caliber as I can carry all day (everyday) and shoot reasonably well up to about 50yds. For general purposes I would be happy with a 375 or 416 when hunting in an area with dangerous game present.

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groups of six, three primary shooters and three backups

Gee, I wonder what those backups were for?

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Originally posted by Will:

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groups of six, three primary shooters and three backups

Gee, I wonder what those backups were for?

Protection from local thugs and or terrorists??

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Originally posted by Will:

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I believe all of these were due to shots that hit non immediate cause of death brain hits.

You mean they hit the brain but didn't kill the elephant?

That's exactly what I mean!

465H&H

Brett, I've seen Buzz's elephant DVD many times and know many of the shooters. Exactly which elephants died from head shots that did not hit the brain?

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Originally posted by 465H&H:

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Originally posted by Will:

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I believe all of these were due to shots that hit non immediate cause of death brain hits.

You mean they hit the brain but didn't kill the elephant?

That's exactly what I mean!

465H&H

I'd better get a bigger gun!

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Originally posted by Will:

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groups of six, three primary shooters and three backups

Gee, I wonder what those backups were for?

While I've never been on a cull and never will, the Ph we had in Zimbabwe some years back had been and, indeed, was going on one the day after we left. As is well known they try to take out whole family groups and pick a kill zone to try to herd them into. He explained that the guys were all on a radio net, and the backups were in case of a jam, with the words used, being "I'm out". Then the next guy would jump in and take over his shooting position. As they explained it, most of the time they'd try to shot the lead cow and one of them would jump on her to shoot the herd as they milled around. They also had one FN as a back-up back up. As I recall, and this was about 15 years ago, he said that some of them used FNs(.308s) but that some used their "everyday" .375s or whatever. As soon as they were finished the refrigerated trucks and skinners would come in. I'm repeating this, can't vouch for it's authenticity.

Sounds familiar to all the culling stories I've heard.

Usually when the matriarch is dinged the rest just stand there. Finishing off the rest as in a cull would not be my hearts desire.

Everyone I have spoken to who was involved in the culls said it was hard on them. They did not enjoy the work even though they felt it was necessary.

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Originally posted by jorge:

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Originally posted by Saeed:
Anyone who thinks that 0.041 of an inche - the differece between a 375 and a 416 is going to make any difference to an animal is dreaming!

Howdy Saeed, obviously I bow to your experience but are you saying there is no advantage to a 416/410gr bullet@ 2400 fps over a 300/375@2500 when it comes to efficacy? jorge

jorge,

I just know one state of "death" that occurs to an animals after being shot.

I have never seen any animal that actually dies more by being shot with a larger caliber.

I think a lot of rubbish has been written by old hunters. Sadly many people swallow it and go on the "bigger is better" tangent.

There is "deader than a doorknob" maybe that is what a .700 nitro does

I believe the best rifle is of legal caliber and the shooter has supreme confidence in it. I own a couple of hunting rifles that I know whatever I shoot will die.

The deadest I have ever heard of is "Deader than Elvis," and being sharper than a marble, that's why I prefer a .458 Lott or a .500 A-Square on elephant.

Since a Percocet or Vicodin IV is not an option, 500 or 570 or 600 grains of solid at 2,300 to 2,500 fps equals the closest I can get to making jumbo "Deader than Elvis" - IMHO, of course.

Bigger may not be better, but it sure makes me feel better when faced with really big - which is an elephant - and that to me is better enough!

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but it sure makes me feel better

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Bigger may not be better, but it sure makes me feel better when faced with really big - which is an elephant - and that to me is better enough!

That is the best answer so far.

As long as it makes YOU feel better, go ahead and use it.

If bigger isn't better, how come a certain hunter on this forum, who will remain nameless, uses a souped up 375 and a certain PH, whose initials may be RV, and his PH son, whose initials may be AV, build and use wildcats that are the equivalent of 460 Weatherby's?

I wonder.

"I once killed nine bulls yielding a total of 1,463 pounds for the day. Even one had a tusk on one side broken off short of the lip so that there were really only seventeen tusks. That gives the fine average of 81 pounds. That was a 7-mm. day"

"I had, besides my .275, a .303 with a ten-shot magazine - an excellent elephant rifle."

W. D. M. "Karamojo" Bell, Karamojo Safari

A lot of wind can be made on the topic. In the end, the best rifle is whatever works for YOU...

Wasn't it Bell that used to pass shoot geese with his .275 Rigby?

He must have figured a shotgun wasn't enough gun.

We shot 4 buffs last weekend all of them with375h&h magnum.
we had
2 one shot kills both with pmp solids thrue the hart one went 7 paces and other one fell on the spot both penetrated right thrue.
2 was shot with remington ammo A frames they were shot to low and had to be followed up one took a hour and the 2nd one about 6 hrs both A frames was recovered in the opposite side of the chest

my point is shot placement is the most important factor. the A frames would do the job when placed right if not you wish you had a solid to penetrate right thrue and give you a better blood trail so shoot right the first time and you can only do it with a rifle you are comfortable with.

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Originally posted by Will:
If bigger isn't better, how come a certain hunter on this forum, who will remain nameless, uses a souped up 375 and a certain PH, whose initials may be RV, and his PH son, whose initials may be AV, build and use wildcats that are the equivalent of 460 Weatherby's?

I wonder.

Bill,

I have a 375/416 Rigby, which drives the 300 grain bullet at 3140 fps. I found that did not penetrate as well as at 2700 fps. In fact, I can get about 2900 fps from te 375/404.

I have also made a reamer for the 300 Pegasus necked down to 375 - and never used it.

If bigger was better, I would be hunting with my 700 NE bolt action rifle.

You have to ask Roy and Alan about why they chose the cartridge they use.

I know both Roy and Alan have complete confidence in my 375.

When they tell me they like me to have a bigger gun, I will build one to their specs

A friend of me hunted i Tanzania for buff for some years ago.

They shot two buffs with one shot kills, they did it as simple as this, with their 375 `s

They shot the buff on the shoulder, and redraw a litle bit and sat down and waited for the carracteristic sound from the buff. whwn they got to the animal, it was dead. I don`t think you need much more to kill a buff effectivily, with a correct shotplacement. and of course a good bullet.

Yukon,

I'm thinking of one particular segment with a guy shooting what looks like an over/under double rifle. He takes a side brain shot on a bull elephant walking right to left across his front. The shot looks to be way too high and too far forward to come anywhere near the brain yet that elephant drops to the shot and Buzz says in his commentary that the elephant did not require another shot!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Brett:
Yukon,

I'm thinking of one particular segment with a guy shooting what looks like an over/under double rifle. He takes a side brain shot on a bull elephant walking right to left across his front. The shot looks to be way too high and too far forward to come anywhere near the brain yet that elephant drops to the shot and Buzz says in his commentary that the elephant did not require another shot!

Brett

That hunt occurred when I was in Chewore. That poor bull had more lead poured into him than in a car battery. You do not necessarily want to see the rest of the video leading up to that snippet.

I don't know if there was an autopsy. Whether he was brained finally or just died of lead poisoning, I do not know.

In other words, there was a lot more shooting than what was on the video. Elephants have to be hit correctly just like any other animal.

Will,

Too bad Buzz didn't mention this in his commentary...

Anything else you'd like to share?

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Brett:
Will,

Too bad Buzz didn't mention this in his commentary...

Anything else you'd like to share?

Brett

One other thing I remember was that German hunter had a red hot daughter.