Have you ever noticed that when you think you have a great all-around dangerous game rifle there is someone that will blaspheme your chosen caliber and expound on the next biggest round that you should have gotten for dangerous game hunting? I think the biggest proponents are the magazine article writers. You buy a .375 H&H or some other version and it's not good enough. You buy a .416 and it's not a good stopper. You buy a .458 Lott and someone will espouse that the .505 Gibbs is the only dangerous game rifle/caliber to consider as a stopper. Maybe I'm kidding myself but it sure appears that way to me.
What ever happened to good shot placement and penetration? Everyone now states that if your shot is not placed with precision accuracy, the .375 will fail. If your .416 comes close to the brain but does not strike it in an elephant, the elephant will not be knocked out. It takes at least a .458 or .474 caliber rifle cartridge for this. The bigger the better. I am beginning to think that there are too many armchair theorists that know nothing regarding killing dangerous game animals except people like Saeed or Atkinson on this forum. Are there any people out there that have killed dangerous game with the .375 H&H, .375 versions, .416's, .458's that have noticed any poor performance when they made a good shot? Not necessarily a medically precise shot but just a good shot. I believe if you make a good shot on a large dangerous game animal with anything from a .375 on up (legal calibers) you will have a dead animal on your tag very quickly. What's all the hocus-pocus about?

Thanks,

jfm.

There is no perfect DG rifle or caliber. Use (375+) what you can shoot the best, like that has never been said before. All the rest is just educatrional talk i e BS,MS, PHD. Bull Shit, More Shit, Piled High and Deep!

quote:

The bigger the better

A 375 H&H is plenty for buff and down. It is only in a charge situation that it is not. But 99.9999% of the guys will never experience one so statistically it is irrelevant.

But bigger is always better.

jfm,

I'm no expert but what sport hunter is. In my opinion anything 375 H&H or larger that you shoot well is the PERFECT dangerous game rifle for you. Unless a client regularly shoots big bores and is familair with them I always recommend a 375H&H. It just works on everything. The 375 is so versatile that in most cases a "Plains game rifle" is not needed.

Mark

A lot of guys around here don't even read the latest from rags like Guns & Ammo, Shooting Times, etc. where advertising is clearly influencing the articles.

When I want to read good info on DG rifles I refer to guys like John Taylor, Tony Sanchez-Arino, Finn Aagaard or my favorite Richard Harland. Any one of those guys have more experience than any combination of writers today. You also have to be able to read between the lines to see personal opinions and prejudices.

For example, Aagaard and Harland both have no problem using the 458 win mag on DG based on their extensive experience with it while other arm chair experts continue to state it is next to useless. I'll go with Finn and Richard on this one.

It is no mystery that a respondent will recommend a larger cartridge to you if he has already decided that is what he considers better! No matter how large you get, someone will want something larger. The same goes for the guy who Fu Fus your cartridge, as too large, if he has determined that a larger cartridge is not needed for a particular animal. Remind you of anyone?

The fact is any cartridge that is legal for the game you are on the prowl for, will do it's part, if you do yours! I don't think anyone with an ounce of experience with dangerous game will say the old 1912, 375 H&H with a proper bullet, placed in the right place will be too small to kill anything that walks today. This same sentiment goes for some of the rounds that are not legal for the animals because of being too small. "IF"..... The big IF, the proper type bullet is placed in the right place, you GOTZ ONE DEAD ANIMAL!

The value in the controversy is, that it genders discussion, and the novice learns things he would not learn in a life time of hunting Dangerous African game, at today's prices. The experience of the experienced hunters of all dangerous game is valuable to the un-schooled. Dangerous game comes in many forms, and sizes, and what is perfect for one, would either be overkill on some, and minimal on some others. The suitability of a particular cartridge for all the big five, regardless of it's size, is determined by the individual shot placement. Where the, "BIGGER IS BETTER", comes into play when the shot is not perfect, and once that happens, in some cases, the biggest is not big enough!

It is not necessary for all to agree on the chamberings needed for any animal, because under the right conditions all will do! Cast the bread on the water, and let the people gather what suits them!

Wasn't it Saeed on his most recent Buffalo hunt who required several shots from his big .375 with custom bullets to down a lowly Buffalo at relatively short range?? (Sorry Saeed just couldn't resist!! )

I don't know jack sheeet about dangerous game hunting cause I'm not a hunter - I just make precision bits and parts from metal and do a lot of math! However, having owned and shot a lot of big rifles - you wouldn't catch me wandering around Africa or Alaska with a little .375 H&H or similar plinker....

The 375 H&H is THE classic African caliber. I own several and would happily use it for everything except elephant. It's my favorite caliber. Not that the 375 can't handle ele but I like getting close and hunting on my feet so I prefer the largest caliber I can shoot AND carry all day. For me, that's a 10 lb. 500 Jeffery because I like to carry something classy. Your mileage may vary.

I have used the .375H&H on elephant and will do it again.

Ann did some excellent shooting on her tuskless. I love how she adjusted when the ele raised her head at the last.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

The bigger the better

A 375 H&H is plenty for buff and down. It is only in a charge situation that it is not. But 99.9999% of the guys will never experience one so statistically it is irrelevant.

But bigger is always better.

I would feel comfortable and safe with 375 H&H for any dangerous game from buffalo on down. A 416 or 458 may increase your margin of error a little on buff but may decrease it on the cats. It is only when hunting elephants that the big boomers are a necessity imho. I suspect that if we checked with those that have killed 10 or more elephants, a large percentage have faced a charge. Especially those that spend a lot of time amongst the cow herds. I was charged by a cow right after a shot my first elephant cow and have had another charge from a cow. I know that Will has had at least two cow charges also. I won't tackle cow herds with less than a 458 Win in my hands. But then I can handle one as well as a 375 H&H. If you can handle a 375 then try a 416. If you can handle a 416 then try a 458 Win or Lott. But don't go up unless you can shoot it fast and accurately and carry it with comfort. If you can't your better off with a smaller but legal caliber.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

The bigger the better

A 375 H&H is plenty for buff and down. It is only in a charge situation that it is not. But 99.9999% of the guys will never experience one so statistically it is irrelevant.

But bigger is always better.

I would feel comfortable and safe with 375 H&H for any dangerous game from buffalo on down. A 416 or 458 may increase your margin of error a little on buff but may decrease it on the cats. It is only when hunting elephants that the big boomers are a necessity imho. I suspect that if we checked with those that have killed 10 or more elephants, a large percentage have faced a charge. Especially those that spend a lot of time amongst the cow herds. I was charged by a cow right after a shot my first elephant cow and have had another charge from a cow. I know that Will has had at least two cow charges also. I won't tackle cow herds with less than a 458 Win in my hands. But then I can handle one as well as a 375 H&H. If you can handle a 375 then try a 416. If you can handle a 416 then try a 458 Win or Lott. But don't go up unless you can shoot it fast and accurately and carry it with comfort. If you can't your better off with a smaller but legal caliber.

465H&H

I took most of my buff with a 375 H&H and cannot say it ain't enough gun, but I have never been charged by one either. But if one did get charged by a buff, either theirs, or someone elses, is the 357 H&H enough gun? Not for me.

If I knew then what I know now I would have used a 416 or bigger. The 416's, the 458 WM, etc. are in the 5000 ft-lb class and that is what is needed to have a chance at stopping a buff or elephant.

Because one can successfully ding an elephant with a 375 H&H is quite irrelevant.

Experience and History speaks for itself. If the 375 were a good elephant rifle then most of the well known PH's of yesteryear and present day would have carried them, very few did or do today. Those that did start out with one in their early years eventually believed in "bigger is better" and carried 416's, 458's and bigger because reality tells us that we don't live in a perfect world. I believe it was Paul Grobler or Richard Harland who shot a perfect brain shot but on that particular ele the brain wasn't where it was suppose to be, anatomical anomaly. It's in this imperfect world that your PH might not be able to save your ass or something else bazaar happens, that's when bigger is better.

I would say that most normal people outside of AR would be much more comfortable and accuratte shooting a 375 H&H correctly than the bigger stuff.

In the end it doesnt matter what caliber you shoot as long as it's adequate more importantly it is what you hit with that specific bullet.

quote:

I would say that most normal people outside of AR would be much more comfortable and accuratte shooting a 375 H&H correctly than the bigger stuff.

Most normal people period. The manufacturer stories I hear is that the 375 H&H is too much gun for most people, and they wind up getting sold.

And I agree that if you are only going to hunt a buff or ele once or twice, I wouldn't bother forcing myself to get used to the abuse of bigger guns.

I guess I'm talking about a .416 round being the best of all rounds. I think it's the best of the best in the .416 Remington with 400 grain bullets. Good for dangerous game and good for plains game. People will of course blast me for suggesting that this is the best of both worlds but I expect that. What is your expectation?

Thanks,

jfm

I own a Remington also....

quote:

guess I'm talking about a .416 round being the best of all rounds.

Could do worse!

My Zim PH two years ago said he would prefer his clients use a 375 H&H on all dangerous game, including elephant, simply because they could shoot it more accurately.

I'm not interested personally in anything bigger that a buffalo so my 375H&H fits me quite nicely. My concern is that once I stop hunting Africa I will probably no longer use that caliber again. I have better options for American big game.

Kensco and others, thanks for your replies.
This is exactly my point. What about shot placement and penetration being important factors? I believe the .416's may be the best all-around situation for all African game animals but that's if you can handle the recoil. The rifle I recently owned and sold was in .416 Remington magnum and it kicked the daylights out of me. Maybe bad rifle design or maybe I'm just a wimp. I don't know. Either way I can handle a used Model 70 Winchester in .458 Winchester magnum better than I could that .416 that I owned. Maybe it's the increased velocity that I was feeling on the .416. Once again, I don't know. The .458 I'm shooting is clocking at 2106 fps and it doesn't feel any worse than my .375 H&H with 300 grain bullets at 2621 fps.
Anyway, thanks again and I look forward to more replies.

Take care,

jfm.

quote:

Originally posted by crane:
I own a Remington also....

Rifle, or cartridge, or both?????

So Saeed needed more shots with a 375 on buffalo, holy cow...BTW I have seen a buffalo take 13 shots with a 500 and a .470 and another that took 9, so I suppose the 470 and 500 are too light for buffalo...

I would hunt anything on this continent with a .375 H&H, if you can shoot it will do the job in spades...If your a panty waste then you need a bigger rifle for elephant!

Blah, blah, blah.....I prefer a Zweihänder on elephant cause I don't know how to shoot!!

quote:

If I knew then what I know now I would have used a 416 or bigger. The 416's, the 458 WM, etc. are in the 5000 ft-lb class and that is what is needed to have a chance at stopping a buff or elephant.

Will, I know a particular gentleman from this forum who believes that the only way to stop a buffalo or an elephant is with a CNS or brain shot. He has stated numerous times that the .375 caliber will do this as well as any other caliber. Shot placement is what counts he says. A bullet hole in the brain or CNS is a bullet hole in the brain or CNS. It doesn't matter what size it is. I believe he has taken more than 100 buffalo and approximately 10 elephant with his .375. You state that to have a chance at stopping a buffalo or elephant you need guns like the .416 or .458 with 5000 ft. lbs of energy. This is what always confuses me. Somebody says something and the next guy says something else entirely different. Constant contradiction. I am not doubting your experience as I am certain it is more than mine. I am beginning to think that I am terminally confused on this subject.

Thanks,

jfm

jfm,
Me too!

If you're waiting for everyone to agree on this, you WILL be terminally confused. There's no need to reconcile everyone's position on this subject (or any other).

quote:

Originally posted by jfm:
You state that to have a chance at stopping a buffalo or elephant you need guns like the .416 or .458 with 5000 ft. lbs of energy.

I really see no conflict in views here. The .375 is adequate for elephant and has taken many elephant over the decades (just ask Harry Manners). Other calibers are similarly adequate for accurately placed shots. However, if you are looking for something that will be more likely to turn a charge or stop a charge with a less than perfect shot, bigger is better and that is where the old notion of a 500 grain bullet at 2150 fps or greater comes into play. For a hunter hunting with a PH back up, a .375 is fine with good shot placement. For someone wanting a rifle that has a better chance of being effective to stop or turn a charge on an imperfect shot, go with something bigger. Look at what most PH's carry and that will give you an idea of what they consider to be appropriate for situations involving a less than perfect initial shot.

Food for thought and my opinion :

So how many here have had to stop a charge and what did you use? Did you only fire once? Did your PH also fire away? Did you have a charge BEFORE you had a chance to fire one shot?

I think most DBG hunters will never be faced with a charge. Most people are hunting game that isn't even aware of your presence yet expect a charge is going to happen on their hunt. That's story book stuff for the most part.

If a charge happens it will be more than likely as a result of a poor first shot which causes a follow up on a now educated and pissed off animal.

I feel as a hunter what I shoot the most accurately is going to serve me the best when I sneak up on my target. I hope I never have to follow up a DBG animal that I wound rather than make the kill but if I do, it will be with that gun I shoot the best.

And yes, I have faced a charge and the cow wasn't playing around. This was a big tuskless matriarch who's group we came upon the day after I filled my tuskless tag. The first time she charged Buzz was able to wave her off. Not the second time, she put us all down a cliff and if it hadn't been there she would have been dead.

Shot placement is far more important! Know your gun and develop your abilities.

quote:

I am beginning to think that I am terminally confused on this subject.

jfm,

There is always a lot of tough talk around here about shooting straight and all that. But how many hunt reports do you read about bad shot placement? It is never ending. "Shot it too high" or "shot it too far back", or "took a brain shot" (but it wasn't dead!!).

Typical scenarios:

1) You walk up to a buff with your 375. You shoot it just behind the front leg. It lurches off a couple yards and either stands there or falls over. If it isn't dead you do the same thing and it starts its moaning death bellow. Big deal, eh?

Or,

2) You walk up to a elephant with your 375. You ding it with a side brain shot. It falls down deader than canned lobster. Big deal, eh?

Or,

3) You walk up to a buff with your 375. You try to shoot it just behind the front leg, but shoot it in the ass. It runs off with speed, without a chance of another shot:

3a) You follow up the buff and luckily the tracker sees the bull hiding behind some thick bush. Can't really see much of anything much less make out its "brain." So you let go with a prayer shot at the dark spot in the bush. What is going to do more damage, a 375 or a 416/458?

3b) You follow up the buff and find it standing in the clear looking straight at you. Now you have recently just shot this buffalo in the ass. What are the odds that you are going to hit this buff's grapefruit size brain after running the last hundred yards, assuming you know where to shoot in the first place? So you decide to let go with a chest shot. What is going to do more damage, a 375 or a 416/458?

And one more.

4) You tried to brain shoot the elephant but have screwed it up and only stunned the elephant. It is shaking its head and stumbling around, and is turning to run off. Your best hope now is to either take the heart/lung shot or try to hit the brain again which will:

a) probably have no effect with a 375.

or,

b) likely knock it down with a 416/458/etc?

Yep, a 375 is good enough most of the time but when a screwup occurs (been there and done that) the 375, sometimes, just ain't enough gun.

What I find interesting in regards to big calibers on DG is the following...

- Will has shot about 20 elephants and I think all of them were with a .470 or lesser caliber. None of his missed brain shots have knocked the elephant out (to my knowledge).

- Dan has shot about 15 elephant and I believe that all of them were with various .50 calibers and up. My understanding is that Dan's missed brain shots resulted in every ele being knocked out.

Both guys have done a good bit of elephant hunting and both are good shots. Both have missed brain shots and the results have been very different.

I read a lot about this subject, talk to everyone I can find with experience (both client and PH) and there is something tangible about stepping up in caliber that is hard to measure but definitely there.

Yes, that is correct. TKO numbers are not very scientific but they are about the best we have to work with. There are too many variables to get very precise with.

Every pseudo-scientist, rag writer, and cow doctor keep on trying to come up with some new discovery or formula about terminal ballistics, but when it is all said and done, it was John Taylor that said it all.

God rest his soul.

Amen.

Sheesh! I wasn't referring to your post. Nothing personal.

Everybody is free to develop their own theories and use whatever they see fit. More power to them.

There are so many articles by so many people claiming to have discovered something new, all trying to out do Taylor or prove Taylor wrong, when in fact they wind up just reinforcing what Taylor observed and published 60 years ago. It is just really entertaining, and painful at the same time.

Will, I guess I see your point. Thanks for the explanation. It appears Saeed can shoot much better than the majority of hunters here and I imagine that he has an advantage over the rest of us with his experience. I must say that I would be very susceptible to poor shooting every once in a while. I have not had the experience of many on these forums with only one SE Alaska brown bear and several Missouri feral hog under my belt. I do agree that the .375 H&H or .416 Remington or Rigby is about the most an average shooter can handle but I seem to be doing quite well with my old .458 Winchester magnum. Better, in fact, than with the .416 I once owned. I am not saying that the .375 H&H is the do all and end all. I am just saying that Saeed shoots a .375 caliber with 300 grain bullets at approximately 2650 fps and he has no problems killing DG at all. I would most likely be better off with my .458 since I cannot shoot quite as well as Saeed. Thanks again to all people that answered to my question. I think I now understand.(Probably to the thanks of many here.)

Take care,

jfm

Johan Calitz sez the .375 H&H is a perfectly good elephant gun if the client can shoot, but whats he know, he has only shot more elephant than everyone here put together...

The size of the hole in the brain makes little difference on anything..I don't buy off that a 800 N.E. will kill with poor shooting, the first elephant shot with the 700 N.E. in the head ran off and has never been seen again...

A decent caliber, with a properly constructed bullet, placed in the correct spot, that spot being the brain and yes, the heart also will kill any elephant..Therefore I consider the .375 as a very good elephant gun, as I do my favorite the .416 or 404..They suit me, they have worked for me and I don't overcome fear and convulsions by convincing myself my 600 N.E. is the only way I am going to survive an elephant attack.

I prefer to trust my ability to place a shot properly on any animal under any circumstances, if I fail send flowers, until then let it rest.

All that is true except for the fact that you don't own a 600 N.E.

quote:

I prefer to trust my ability to place a shot properly on any animal under any circumstances,

Tough talk.

Anyone who thinks that 0.041 of an inche - the differece between a 375 and a 416 is going to make any difference to an animal is dreaming!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Anyone who thinks that 0.041 of an inche - the differece between a 375 and a 416 is going to make any difference to an animal is dreaming!

Howdy Saeed, obviously I bow to your experience but are you saying there is no advantage to a 416/410gr bullet@ 2400 fps over a 300/375@2500 when it comes to efficacy? jorge