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I posted a poll about this last week. The Big Game Hunting Forum is mostly against it and the African forum is mostly for it. Let's devise some rules that seem acceptable. Remember, this is for North America I'll start with this. No Native North American Animals Allowed The reason being I feel that native species are held in common and are not for sale. 'Exotic' or introduced animals are like cows or chickens, private property and can be sold just as readily. Thus, no Elk Ranches in Colorado or Maine and no Whitetail Deer Farms in Michigan or Texas. If you have a High Fence Operation you must get rid of or not hunt native species. [ 04-23-2003, 07:31: Message edited by: Mickey1 ] | ||
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I see a pretty clear distinction between "deer farms" and some high-fenced ranches where deer are hunted. Seeing migratory game animals like elk behind a high fence really bothers me. | |||
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![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} Mickey1, there is only one rule for high fence hunting,and that is: If you don't like the operation, don't hunt it! Some places are like shooting at an ainmal in a 12 foot pit, but there are many ranches in Texas that are almost the size of Roade Island. On a ranch like this, the fence is not to keep animals in, but to keep them out! The habitat is so improved by proper management, that if the fence were taken down, the population on the property would increace to the rate found outside the fence. The population outside the fence is the reason the habitat outside the fence is depleated. The population is regulated inside so that habitat isn't damaged beyond its carrying capacity. This fact alone promotes better quality game. I agree with most though, the species makes a difference, and my only bitch with these places is with migratory species, like Elk! My grandfather's ranch, where I was born, had an outside border fence of 35 miles, though not high fence. In that land, there were deer that avoided us for years, and one that I'd seen for at least ten years as I grew up on the place, was found dead in the pasture, though many family members, hunted him every year, he died of old age, and never left our property. A fence, high or low had nothing to do with his ability to avoid being shot. He simply knew every bush, rock, hill, creek, and thicket on his range, better than I did, and I was in the woods with a rifle, everyday that I wasn't in school. | |||
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Mac, Very well put amigo!! Bob | |||
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Mac All well and good. But, WA, ID, MT, CA, NV, and AZ in the West have banned any type of High Fenc Hunting. OR has banned HF hunting of Native species and is attempteing to close the only operation left that still hunts exotics. CO, IN and NC will have bills voted on this year to ban ALL HF hunting ,regardless of species or size of operation. The log is rolling and picking up speed. For years HF operations have ignored the objections by AR and Hunters and the Hunting Organizations have been more concerned with the Revenue from HF advertisements and record book entries to take a position. The Montana coalition of HSUS and RMEF that brought hunters and non hunters together to ban HF hunting in that State and the current SCI Presidents ownership of a HF operation has finally started a serious effort to come up with some guidelines that can be defended by SCI and also supported by the membership. It is not enough to make general statements about size, each animal has different requirements, opportunity to escape, an animal can only go to the fence, etc etc. Hard and fast rules that cover all captive animals are all that will sell to the vast majority of the non-hunting public. Whether or not people are against hunting it is too easy of a sell to call it canned hunting and impossible to defend without standards that are defensible. I spent last weekend on a HF Ranch in Oregon. My first experience in NA. 1500 acres on the side of a Mountain with lots of draws and steps, 3/4 timbered. The Goats and Sheep, Buffalo, Yaks, Watusi were for shooters only. The Russian Boar, Fallow Deer and Eland would be fun and challenging. It is what it is and I had a good time with some very nice people and saw a few animals taken. But a tough sell to the non-hunting public. Just some thoughts and looking for input. Is it possible to set some universal standards that can be supported by most hunters? I don't know, I don't know if most hunters even support the concept of HF Hunting. | |||
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HSUS? Why would anyone deal with them? | |||
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Mickey1, Could you clarify for me again what the purpose of the fence is? Are we keeping good genes in, bad genes out? Keeping hunters not paying out? Trigger | |||
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quote:Please excuse my cutting your post up to only reflect the passages I want to comment on. #1 Though well written, and thought out, if you were talking to a group of PeTAheads , or a club of HSUS followers, who know nothing about animals, outside the occasional poodle dog. However, you are talking to people, here,who know something of the habits of wild animals, and what it takes for them to live normal lives, and breed and survive by their witts! The states you mention amazeingly happen to be states that have millions of acres of public land on which the people, of those states, can hunt, not to mention the fact that they all have been invaded by KALIFORNACATORS, one of the most anti-hunting groups in the world. When they get those laws passed, then you will see the next step in their plan. There are many states where if a person is to hunt at all, it will be on a comercial operation, and since a comercial operation has to have some security, they must be finced. Europe, had to go this system 100 years ago, because the land was so populated, the law made these people fence their operation in, not only to keep people out, but to keep the large animals they hunted, from encroching on their neighbors,this also applies to RSA. As far as the hunting of exotics goes, if it weren't for the hunting of exotics, many of these animals would have been extinct many years ago, not from hunting, but for food, and farmers killing them for crop damage! Their monetary value is the only thing that will insure their continued existance. If they do not pay their own way, they will be removed, in favor of something else that will. On this note, a few years ago, six ranchers, in Texas,went together to put together a herd of 60 black buck,antilope, and donated them to INDIA, to start a herd in one of their game protectorates. It seems if it had not been for the black buck here, they would have been extinct, and were in India! Of the exotics, hunted in this country, most are in danger, or nonexistant, in their home lands, because thier habatat has been turned into fields. their populations are healthy here, because they are valuable! IMO, since the opperations that sell hunts for these animals, have an incentive to have them around, and the ranches are managed for perfect habitat, and populations, dictated by the size of that habitate, are doing considerably more for these animal's future viability, than all the do gooders that ever heard of Peta, or HSUS! #2 Holding hands with those who's only adgenda is to stop ALL hunting, (PeTA, HSUS, ALF, ELF, and Green Piece ), is only giveing credit to their argument, and devideing all hunters one against the other! By painting all operations with the same paint, you do exactly the same thing we have been fighting these idiots about for years. Their idea of a fairchase hunt is with a camera, and the only animals they know anything about are those that are behind a fence in a zoo! #3 You are absolutely right on this point, it is not enough to make general statements! That, however, is exactly what you are doing, by giveing no ground to high fence, no matter the facts. Simply makeing a general statement that any high fence operation is a canned hunt, is not only irresponsable, but a lie! #4 The sell (OUT) to the nonhunting public, is telling them what PeTA has been saying, all along, is true! Instead the case needs to be made for the continued existance of these animals as a species, dirrectly depends on their monatary value, to the land owner, so he will guarantee, they will not be shot out! It costs lots of money to develope these habitats, and the animals who benefit from it, must help pay for that outlay of funds. Additionally these animals are the ones who should enjoy this habitat, to make sure the outside wildlife stays outside, a fence must be in place, otherwise it would shortly overpopulate with animals of less quality, and damage the habitat! #5 You say you were at a HF place in the NW, and had a good time, but what you fail to say is, that you "HUNTED" while there. My guess is, you were there to do a little filming, and to load the PeTA, and HSUS sites with more ammo for their world wide assault on all hunting, just like your posts here on this string. It would not surprise me to see all these posts, taken out of context, on about a dozen ARA sites before long! The string will start with a title something like: "SEE! EVEN HUNTERS THINK ALL FENCED HUNTS ARE CANNED, REGARDLESS OF SIZE OR CONDITION!" That's not true, and you know it! ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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I posted this reply in Big Game Hunting forum too. I can say what happens in California because I live here, and I was raised as a hunter. Land owners can and do run native game operations with the blessing of the California Department of Fish and Game. Landowners can be allocated the ability to sell hunt opportunities, and also can crop the herds to improve the local numbers of shootable bucks. jim dodd | |||
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In the stata of LA, they have "outlawed" bring in "yankee" deer to deer farms, over a pissing match between the dept of agg and th dept of wildlife. guys, please get a perspective on this... if YOUR state had ZERO public lands to hunt on, where would the animals be? In texas, there aint no such thing as public lands, so to speak jeffe | |||
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