Folks: This probably belongs on "reloading" forum, but being the African Forum is my "home" and we are talking about an African caliber, I thought the following response from Olin/Winchester regarding the 375 H&H might spur some interest/concerns:

hank you for contacting us at Winchester Ammunition inquiring about our 375 H&H brass.

Please be advised that this is a seasonal product and is made to order once a year for the distributors that have them on order. However, because we did not get enough orders for the brass, as well as the 375 H&H loaded round, they were not produced this year. The earliest you would see it would be next year, provided we receive enough orders to warrant production.

Thank you for your interest in our products.

So, I'm looking for a bout 100 virgin shells. Anybody have any to sell? jorge

You stuck on Wichester? I switched to Norma a few years ago and have not looked back. The brass is thick, soft and I get many more loads from it.

Who cares if Winchester stops making everything!

I'll be the first to admit that I love their guns...Pre-64, but as of late, that company has nothing worthwhile to offer.

It is a shame to see an American icon go down the tubes.

Anybody disagree?

Jeff

PS - Norma, Federal, Hornady brass is better anyway.

thanks for that constructive input. jorge

PM Sent.

i have been using remington brass i have 300 pc's i can get some to you if you need it bad.

Jorge..Thanks for the advice on the 7MM weatherby. I'm looking for one right now...steve

Jorge,

Try Lock Stock & Barrel.
https://www.lockstock.com/

I just purchased 500 W-W .375 H&H cases. (I mean "just purchased" as in just before I made this post.) Thanks for the heads up about the W-W .375 H&H brass!!!

-Bob F.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
Who cares if Winchester stops making everything!

I'll be the first to admit that I love their guns...Pre-64, but as of late, that company has nothing worthwhile to offer.

It is a shame to see an American icon go down the tubes.

Anybody disagree?

Jeff

PS - Norma, Federal, Hornady brass is better anyway.

Just the most successful line of new cartridges in years. Down the tubes simply because they made a marketing decision you don't understand? Where do you get your information, thin air?

Gents; Thanks to Bob I managed to find some with Lock Stock & barrel and Forrest B offered some. I am sure Winchester will produce some eventually but you all know how we can get! This is why I really appreciate this forum and the great folks who visit here. Thank you all again. jorge

Steve: Let me know if you can't find one, I can probably find one through one of my wholesalers.jorge

midwayusa.com has brass!
http://www.midwayusa.com/esearch.exe/search?TabID=0&cat...to+Begin+Search.y=10

DC300,

"Just the most successful line of new cartridges in years. Down the tubes simply because they made a marketing decision you don't understand? Where do you get your information, thin air?"


From the "thin air" comes the fact that the company once owned nearly the entire rifle market, shotgun market and was, yes, possibly the single largest cartridge (rifle & shotgun ) innovator in US history. For a long period they made some if not the best category offerings ever....then...Poof it was over...Gone is the quality, innovation and pride that was once Winchester!.

Now after all of that glory, Winchester has only been able to develop one innovative (if you call .300 WSM et al innovations) design in the past 40 years...They are a mere "shell" of what they once were...They have become an ammo company, and not a really good one at that (except for AA shotgun shells).

I don't put this up because I dislike Winchester...I personally hate to see the great American brands go down without a fight...They did, and that's a sad affair - don't you agree. The chicken-shits that let that company go should be shamed out of society for ruining a great piece of Americana - Only Tony Galazan had the guts and brains to keep the model 21 alive and as authentic as possible. What happened to the model 70???


Marketing Success- Stop drinking that "cool-Aid" dude! You do have that right though....they have become a marketing company by and large. All hat and no cows as we say here in Texas.

Jorge - my apologies to you for venting all over your thread!

JW

How have they been "let go"? They brought back the sainted "pre-64" action, they show a profit every year, they have just about succeeded in knocking Remington's short mags completely off the market, they brought back the super grade, most importantly, they have changed with the times. They no longer offer commemerative model '94's, why...because nobody buys them anymore. They dropped the 94/22, why? same reason. They brought out the 94/410, not my cup of tea, but innovative.

You obviously have an ax to grind so have at it.

By the way, Winchester ammunition is a division of the Olin Corporation and has no affiliation with the United States Repeating Arms Company (who manufacture Winchester firearms), other than the name Winchester.

What happened to the model 70? It was redesigned in 1964 and has become known as the "push feed". It worked then and it works now. As I said before, they brought back the pre '64 due to customer demand (that and the fact the average gun writer did his best to destroy the company but refusinfg to let go of the pre 64 myth). The push feed model is still in the line and fuctions and shoots just as well as the pre '64 models.

Jorge,
Huntingtons carries WW 375 brass, and if they run out you can get RWS and RWS is the worlds best brass by a long shot.

I have been on many safaris both mine and others and you could not give me a damn pushfeed rifle, I have observed more malfunctions with them every single year than I care to deal with...

Those that believe pushfeeds are fine are suspect in actual field experience IMO or have been damn lucky...

Ray,

No disrespect intended but opinions are like belly buttons, everybody has one. I don't have the figures to prove it but the Remington 700 is arguably America's favorite rifle and it's a push feed. If they didn't work, they wouldn't sell the thousands and thousands they do every year. I am a Winchester fan but Remington continues to out sell them year after year after year, and that's a fact.

DC: I agree with your premise but your logic on the 700 is a bit flawed. Just because an item outsells another one is not nessesarily because it's a better product.

The original pushfeed Winchesters (1964) were garbage. Poorly constructed, ugly stocks and horrible finish. When Winchester re-started the CRF line (as well as Ruger), they've been steadily gaining on Remington. I own and shoot push feeds also (Weatherbys) but I wouldn't own a 700 on a dare. THey are accurate, but accuracy alone does not make for a good hunting rifle. THe glued on handle, cheap extractor and fire on fail safety issues are showstoppers for me. jorge

This was a very timely post.

I was having trouble finding Winchester 375H&H too. Cabela's and Midway were out. I found 50 pieces at Carter country in Houston at that was it.

I also ordered some from Lock Stock & Barrel. Thanks - I hadn't looked there.

Winchester needs to get with the program.

Jorge,

My point was this. Companies keep what sells in the line and they either back off a product (such as the aforementioned brass) with plans to bring it back when the demand is there or they simply drop it. I have been in the firearms business here in Texas for over 20 years. I have a pretty good idea what sells and what doesn't. I also see first hand what products are good and what are poor. You may not like the 700 but it obviously works for 95-99% of those who buy them or they wouldn't be around.

You and others must be very tough on your equipment with all the failures you speak of. That said, you have moved on to more durable guns that suit your purpose. That doesn't mean the other stuff isn't good for the vast majority of those who buy them.

Winchester had a bad run way back in the '60's and no one has ever let them forget it. I am sure all the principals involved are retired or dead. I started using them in the late '70's and they were and still are perfectly servicable rifles. They made the change in '94 to the pre '64 action but there are still those who piss and moan about what happened 2 decades ago. The new guns are great looking, they shoot well and IMHO they do NOT have any quality control issues. If they did, my company wouldn't sell them.

This discussion can go on ad infinitum and we will never agree on or resolve anything. Just go out and enjoy what you have.

Remington 700s are great for benchrest - single feeding situations which is part of the reason snipers like them. I own several tuned-up rifles with the 700 action, BUT...

...I wouldn't go to Africa with one...I've had my share of mis-feeds, failed ejections, etc...to essentially rule-out any push feed for DG.

700s can be super accurate partially because of the advent of oversized recoil lugs and improvements made in bedding materials / techniques...Oh, and they are really easy to work on.

So I have come to the conclusion that for ammo testing / competitions I'll use 700-type based actions; Rem, Nesika, Mc Bros, etc...They're cheap, easy to work on and are accurate.

For DG - Mdl 70 pre 64 (pre-war better yet) and any other forged / machined from solid stock controlled feed actions (CZ, BRNO, Magnum Mauser). Or use a Dbl rifle.

Given the aforementioned...The Winchester of today has nothing to offer me.

Including that lousy feeding short magnum BS!

I'll take on anybody that shoots the .300 WSM with my .300 H & H shot for shot and smoke them...It loads fasterThere is simply no advantage for hunting that I can see with these short-stubby, magazine capacity eating, poor feeding "MARKETING" contrivances. For benchrest maybe, but not hunting.


And that DC300 is why I dislike Winchester (or whomever they are) these days.

At one time a group of us Texas boys were going to raise the capital to acquire Winchester from USRAC and Olin's munitions interests, re-unify the brands and bring some dignity back to the Winchester name...We still might.

That black stuff coming out of the ground out here at 70 bucks a barrel is makeing this type of venture seem more and more doable....but, that's another story alltogether.

I am certain you realize this was not an "axe-to-grind" situation / personal attack, it's all good at the end of the day.

JW

DC300,

I failed to read your last post...I now understand where you are coming from...

...a man has to make a living, Winchester of old, or no Winchester of old...

...I respect that and have a understanding of your perspective that I didn't have earlier.

Why aren't you up in Tulsa grabbing-up all of those Pre-64 Model 70s for sale

It's all good.

JW

DC300: I find these posts iteresting and stimulating,so I'll keep at it a while longer. Again what you say is partially true regarding the new CRF Winchesters.

When they first came out, they were magnificent, but then they moved the factory to the Carolinas and quality took a significant turn for the worse. They seem to have recovered and I hope they continue. While there are other CRF rifles out there, I don't care for the CZs as they are way too rough out of the box. To Remington's credit, their rifles are much better finished for example than the Czs. Regardless, the Remington users always seem to skirt around the issues I mentioned on my previous post, especially the many litigations against Remington with their safeties. jorge

Thanks guys, it's so nice to have a discussion and an exchange of viewpoints rather than a name calling, waste of space as so many of these threads degenerate into.

Jorge,

I agree with you on the safety issue. Remington has had problems in the past and they steadfastly refuse to issue a recall notice where safetys are concerned. This is bad business IMHO.

As to 700's as DG rifles, I advise anyone wanting a Remington to replace that .02 cent extractor with a Sako style before they ever fire the gun. In my time in the gun business I honestly don't recall any significant feeding problems with 700's. Extraction, ejection yes, but feeding has never been an issue.

Most of the problems show up when a so-called "gunsmith" works his ill-conceived "magic" on them and FUBAR's them. It's a pity you don't have to have formal training or a license to call yourself a gunsmith. We have a lot of good ones but they are far outnumbered by the hacks.

Anyway, this has been fun so far. It's great to talk rather than shout.

DS300: Are you familiar with the African-Hunter website( http://www.african-hunter.com). There you will find a fairly good, albeit dated report from the Zimbabwe PH certification which is the toughest in all of Africa. There is specific mention on the REmington 700s in DGR caliber and their failure to feed properly and the safety issues. Also over on the 24hrCampfire site under African hunting, there is a very good analogy on the 700s' issues in this regard. jorge

I'll check it out. FWIW, 2 of the 4 PH's we hunted with in Zim in 2000 were using 700's in .416 Rem Mag. Go figure.

I hunt DG with a Mod 70, but the only time I have ever had a failure to extract anything is with this rifle. I confess, my load was hot (but not over a book max). When I lifted the bolt handle (which was pretty stiff) the extractor sprung out and failed to extract. I punched out the case with cleaning rod.

I have never had a 700 fail to extract - the construction of the extractor won't allow it to spring out. Jim Carmichel has wrote about this extensively, and Boddington has also said action types are of no consequence.

The 700 extractor is quite similar to the M16/AR15, which I used to shoot extensively competitively. You know, I don't ever recall having an extraction failure.

As for the trigger, if you adjust the trigger on a 700 too light, it can go off if you apply light pressure to the trigger when you slide the safefty off. But I would rather have a trigger that is finely adjustable than one that is not.

Hey Jorge: going to JAX again tomorrow. Be in the area a few weeks, but working over the weekend (I want to take some time out in Nov to go deer hunting in MN).

AZ: Give me a call and this time I'll buy YOU dinner. Been pretty busy myself, but I'll always make time. jorge

Pardon me there Arizona Writer but the model 700 extractor is NOTHING like the AR-15 style. The Sako and AR-15 are almost identical and far superior to the 700. The 700 extractor may not "spring out" but it sure as hell will bend and or fall out at times. Believe me, we have replaced more than a few over the years.

DC,

I have used the SAKO modifications on my 700s with success.

GA precision up in KC, MO, http://www.gaprecision.com makes a really cool AR-style extractor for 700 magnum actions...Pulls like a Warn winch and chucks'em a mile! Great for Tactical rifles...And yes one of mine is a .300 WSM...Ok,ok, I had to try one (or more).

GA's extractor is the best I've used thus far.

For trigggers - tried'em all, Timney, Jewell and have gone back to using the "old" style Remingtons @ #3.5...This is the ASA recommended poundage and is great for hunting.

Never had a slam fire with this setting.

ANYWAY...Jorge...Jorge, have you tried the Federal brass? Really good stuff.

Jeff

JW

OK DC, I meant the AR is not a claw type extractor.

Jeff: I've had good success with Federal Brass (nickel) in my 338s. However, the last time I checked, Federal does not sell unprimed brass to the public. I've had incredible accuracy/velocity for my 375 using WW brass so I'm not going to change components, at least not with my present 375. jorge

Jorge,

I can't blame your reasoning on this one....the gun likes what the gun likes...been there!

Good luck with the loading and results...I'll keep my eye peeled for any Win brass that comes my way and pass it on to you.

JW

AZwriter,

Thanks, my point is that the Sako/AR-15 style is probably the next best thing to the Winchester (Mauser) claw. Weatherby, Tikka and Howa all use this style while Browning, Savage and FN use one that is similar but not exactly the same. Most of these are not among the most popular DG rifles but a whole lot of them are out there in the deer fields doing a great job. They will all do well with Plains game as well.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
DS300: Are you familiar with the African-Hunter website( http://www.african-hunter.com). There you will find a fairly good, albeit dated report from the Zimbabwe PH certification which is the toughest in all of Africa. There is specific mention on the REmington 700s in DGR caliber and their failure to feed properly and the safety issues. Also over on the 24hrCampfire site under African hunting, there is a very good analogy on the 700s' issues in this regard. jorge

jorge

Did you read all of those articles you mentioned in African Hunter?

How about the reports on Weathrby Rifles?

Mauser; I sure did read them all, including the one on the Weatherbys and I agree with them. Aside from the fact there is a general "anti Weatherby" bias that probably stems from the percievied type of people who buy them, there have been issues with hot loaded Weatherby ammo. Although the problem sems to have been fixed, I experienced it with my 300 and 180gr barnes Xs.

When it comes to DG rifles, I use and prefer a Mauser type, but single stacked Weatherbys as in the 378 and 460, make for very reliable feeders and if you handload, you can mitigate the hot load problems. Accordingly, I would have no problems with a Weatherby and hunting DG, it's the 700s that I take issue with. Weatherby safeties are among the safest in the industry ( although way back in the fifties when the MKV first came out there were some problems, that have long since been corrected) and they lock th bolt down when engaged, their extractors are solid and dependable and their bolts don't become unglued. jorge

Sorry about that. I've been using Remington Model 700's on 2 Continents for 40 years and I've been soooooooo lucky!

Rich Elliott

Great, glad to hear you recognize it as luck. I'd rather be lucky than good anyday. jorge