Happy Days!! Checked my m70 Win, Dakota nd CZ550 Conversions and not a malfunction for any of them.

The Win .375 H & H M70 Classic experienced the most bolt lift--but not excessive, so with the safety in safe position, I was able to slightly lift the bolt and move the safety forward and fire.

The CZ had practically no bolt movement.

In some of the M70's, it must be a matter of tolerances.

Dak

Gentlemen:

Thank you all for all your support and kind thoughts and words. They mean alot to us. Niki has made a near 100% recovery. We were very lucky. I read something recently that said your chance of dieing in a buffalo attack is 70%.

It is very reassuring to confirm that I am in fact not on an island with this issue.

I can't meaningfully respond to all of you but DRB asked about George Hallamore. He is a fine PH and you will do well with him. He has a great teacher in his father Lou and his brother Clive is good as well. George was grabbing brass and doing all he could and it could very easily been him. His response to emergency was stellar.

Hunter Jim and others, Some history on my rifle seems in order. It is a factory M-70 that I bought in 95 or 96. Serial number starts with G. POST push feed etc... for those who do not know. The resurrected pre-64.

I've had extensive work done to it originally and aside from the "NEW" issue it is a beautiful rifle and shoots dime group at 100 yards if I'm having a good day. It's bedded, custom built open sights, custom built scope mounts, detatchable talley rings and a 1.5 - 5 Leopold Vari X III, after market collar and extractor, accurized, customized magazine with new expanded floor plate so it hold five rounds in the mag and one in the tube. It prefers 4 and one. Mercury tube and decelerator pad. I also believe in improving a factory rifle.

With this rifle I've shot elephant, MULTIPLE cape buff including two seperate buff in open terrain ( I really like that!) shot intially broadside then running away five times each, a mortally-wounded lion, a big crocodile shot nine times in maybe a minute, kudu, wildebeest, eland, sable, hartebeest, zebra, suni, grizzly, elk, moose, prairie dogs and more.

I practice sometimes by taking several 1-2 gallons blocks of ice and place them over a 1/4 mile area in the Nat. Forest and then walk back thru and shoot them off sticks, over my knees, against a tree, and off hand. It feels good in my hands and is part of my hunting life.

I'm familiar with this rifle. This rifle has been 100% until it wasn't.

I grew up with Winchesters and Remingtons and a few others. We never had any custom guns or expensive ones because my parents could not afford them. I'm left handed but learned to shoot right handed rifles... left handed.

I said in my original post that a good gunsmith could probably fix this. I didn't say how because as I mentioned this is not my field of expertise but I planned to share it soon. Now is a good time.

It was good to read Chuck Nelson's post because this procedure is exactly what I've had done to 3 of my model-70's, including my .416. It appears to have worked well. My bolts lock down now in full safe position. Very little play.

My gunsmith is a guy named Jim Lewis from Butte, Mt. originally from WY. He makes custom rifles and is now making beautiful custom blued and stainless barrels in multiple calibers. He's a mauser nut as well.

He knew exactly what I was talking about when I told him what happened and now he's changing all my M-70 rifles at about $200- $300 per rifle. Sure wish I'd have known about this before. Now we all do.

Smiths seem to be pretty set in thier ways. He does not exactly divulge his method and I'm not sure I'd be able to repeat it in intricate detail but basically what he's doing is welding up the back of the bolt body to eliminate bolt handle slop in the safe position. He also is closing off (how I don't know) the hole the plunger goes into in fire position (detent?) and drills a NEW smaller hole for the plunger.
Also building up the striker housing to eliminate housing slop and re-engine the turved? bolt. That's the best I can do right now. I'm hopeful this solves the issue but I'm still a bit on the wary side.

We are planning to hunt buffalo again soon.

Honestly glad to hear of your wives recovery.

Like I stated in my post above I don't think this is solely an issue with Model 70s. Everyone should check all their bolt guns to be sure.

I have now tried to replicate this problem on 6 different model 70 classics. None of them would do it unless I held the bolt up with my left hand while I tried to push the safety forward with my right. Even then only 2 out of the 6 malfunctioned. But if the safety was in the rear position then lifting the bolt up but not holding it there caused no safety malfuction.

I had only one rifle here here which is not mine and is a 223 WSSM. Slightly lifting the bolt when cocked would lot let me get past the middle position.

However, in full length size brass or new brass if I lifted the bolt handle up through the "play" area and then let it go it fell down enough so the safety would would come off OK

On neck sized ammo it would probably be different. A push feed might also be different as the pressure of the spring loaded ejector would probably hold the bolt in the up position.

Perhaps the pressure of a claw exxtrator might also hold the bolt in the up position, especially if the extrator was a bit rough or case extractor groove was a bit rough.

Mike

FWIW, my Model 70 "Safari Express" .375 (serial # G34****, made about 2002) came with several problems that were only made worse when the gun was sent back to the factory for correction. When received the second time the safety would sometimes not ENGAGE, simply could not get it to move out of the "Fire' position. Mark Penrod got everything working nicely. Now, there is no way I can make the safety stick or the gun not fire by lifting the bolt part way up when the safety is in the full rear position. In fact, even if I put the safety fully rear and lift and HOLD the lifting pressure as I move the safety forward, the bolt will not lift any further even when the safety if fully forward- I must release the bolt lift and then try again to get the bolt to move upward. And the forward safety movement is not impeded at all by bolt lift. I don't want to even think about how this test would have gone before Mark worked on the gun...

I tried this with four stock Model 70s so far--a pre-64 30-06 and three push feeds in 30-06, .308, and .458. In no case could I duplicate Kieth Atcheson's problem, even though the bolt could be raised 1/4" or so when on full safety.

I would like to resurrect this ancient but excellent discussion.

The location and perhaps even the specifications and tolerances for the Winchester model 70 has changed a couple of times since 2005. Here's an excerpt from Wikipedia which summarizes the changes nicely:

"Model 70s were built in New Haven, Connecticut, from 1936 to 2006, when production ceased. In the fall of 2007, the Belgian company FN Herstal announced that Model 70 production would resume. As of 2012, new Winchester Model 70 rifles were being made by FN Herstal in Columbia, South Carolina. In 2013, assembly was moved to Portugal."

I am curious if any of the model 70s from these later eras are affected by the same problem. Subjectively, many people feel the South Carolina rifle was built to a higher standard than those previously made.

Any further thoughts or tests out there?


P.S. For what it's worth, I tested my Kimber model 8400 Montana multiple times this evening and cannot duplicate the malfunction.

Great thread. First time I have heard of this possible problem.

Will check my Mod70 Classics (and Kimbers) when I get home.

Thanks,

Chris

First off I'm pleased that you are okay (and not put off buffalo hunting).

Thank you for sharing this experience and the "fix" required.

I'm a great M70 fan and have seen this with M70 and also other designs with safeties that lock the bolt. In my personal experience for example some of the Sakos will do the same. It's worth checking any rifle with a safety that locks the bolt.

Having only hunted dangerous game once, I can't really comment on the situation except to say thank goodness it wasn't worse, and that even with the problem, you were able to pull it off, and that your wife is OK.

But I can say a little more about the M70 issue. Having owned a bunch of M70s made in the 80's, 90s, and 00's, I have seen this on at least a couple of them. Also, when carrying them in the field, I regularly found that the safety had moved from the full, rear position to the middle position. That occurred on just about all of them. Of course, once that happens, it's easy for the bolt to lift up. Not saying that happened in your case, as I read your post carefully and fully accept that the safety was in the rear position as the event started. But, it's another weakness of the design IMHO. I like a 2 position safety that fully locks the bolt closed when it's on, and is positioned so that it won't inadvertently move to the off position. The tang safety is great. In that respect, I like the Browning A Bolt and X Bolt guns, and a pin also comes up to block the striker directly. There are other aspects of the Brownings I'm not so wild about. Just the safety, for the sake of this discussion. I also have an early 80's Sako that has the 2 position safety on the side. It keeps the bolt fully locked. I wish it had some sort of striker block built in.

I thought I was the only person who saw shortcomings in the M70 safety. When I've commented about it, generally folks have said I'm all wrong.

Ummmm, you guys do realize that this post is from 2005.

Yeah--but the same rifles are still around---making it a pertinent discussion

quote:

Originally posted by JCS271:
Ummmm, you guys do realize that this post is from 2005.

I'm the one that resurrected this 10-year-old discussion. Apparently, you missed my post and reasoning. Here it is again:


"I would like to resurrect this ancient but excellent discussion.

The location and perhaps even the specifications and tolerances for the Winchester model 70 has changed a couple of times since 2005. Here's an excerpt from Wikipedia which summarizes the changes nicely..."

Remind me to link to this thread next time someone balks at the price of a professionally-built custom rifle for dangerous game.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodhits:
Remind me to link to this thread next time someone balks at the price of a professionally-built custom rifle for dangerous game.

Unfortunately there are professionally-built DG rifles costing many thousands$$$ that arrive to the customer
not being 100% reliable or functional.( be it M70 or M98)

Pompous ass fancy walnut,close inletting, makers name or 'provenance', don't mean shit when a rifle has problems
with such an essential basic function,like, RELIABLY CYCLING CARTRIDGES.
Its obvious some custom gunmakers get carried away with detail on the art-visual, but ignore essential core build factors,
like, the critical mechanical functioning of the tool.

D'Arcy Echols & Co. would be one of the trusted few shops not to deliver a dud-ass DG rifle.

D'Arcy is who I had in mind when I made the comment.

And that list of a "trusted few" is a very small one indeed!

quote:

Originally posted by Kenati:

quote:

Originally posted by JCS271:
Ummmm, you guys do realize that this post is from 2005.

I'm the one that resurrected this 10-year-old discussion. Apparently, you missed my post and reasoning. Here it is again:


"I would like to resurrect this ancient but excellent discussion.

The location and perhaps even the specifications and tolerances for the Winchester model 70 has changed a couple of times since 2005. Here's an excerpt from Wikipedia which summarizes the changes nicely..."

I did read your post, and this thread is a good one to resurrect. My comment was simply to alert the folks who apparently thought this just happened and were expressing their concerns for keiths wife and her recovery.

Even my professionally built .375 developed safety issues that required a rebuild of the safety. Built on a highly modified Enfield action.


Dutch

Haven't ever had the problem, but I'll be looking at my M70's to see if it is an issue with any of them soonest. This could take awhile.