Not too long ago while in a safari camp, I had the oppurtunity to share a bottle of wine and some before dinner snacks with one of the old time great PHs. We were discussing my favorite topic, elephant hunting. During the discussion he asked me what was the closest range that I had shot an elephant. I responded that it was a young bull with a frontal brain shot at 9 paces. He felt that was too close for a PH to take a client up to an elephant. His reasoning was that at that range if the elephant charged after the shot (known to happen by the way) there was little time for the client and PH to drop the elephant. In addition if you are that close it means you are probably in the thick stuff and it could happen that another is as close or closer that you can't see. Which could result in a charge from an unexpected elephant coming from an unexpected angle. I'm sure most of us have all read of that happening. In his opinion while getting really close is very exciting it is adding an element of danger that is unnessesary to the hunt. He prefered his clients to take their elephants at 15 to 20 yards. What say you? How close is too close?


465H&H

The one that kills you is the one that was to close.

In all other sistuations it just depends on the condidtions.

Closer than 5 yards is dangerous in my opinion.

There was a good article in African Hunter on this topic. The upshot was that the "charge zone" changes according to terrain, wheather or not the animal is wounded, has young, etc.

Sometimes it's not possible to control how close you get. I have been well inside of 5yds with buff and ele when downwind and they were movinig toward us. I guess that's why it's DG hunting...

Brett

465,
that old time ph is absolutely right! With a client, irrespective of how big a "bwana" he is, under 15-20 yards is an unnecessary risk IMO.

I`m actually suprised at how many sub 10 pace kills are "reported" with elephant

I have taken 5 elephants.
One bull at 120 yards, after 2 body shots he spun around and immediately charged. I had broken his left front leg. He went about 2 or 3 body lengths then fell down. I ran toward him, as he got up I brained him from about 50 or 60 yards.

I shot a cow at 12 yards, side brain, a cow at 6 yards frontal brain, a cow at 5 yards side brain, and a bull at 6 yards frontal brain.

I would not want to do it any other way.

All shots are on film.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:


I`m actually suprised at how many sub 10 pace kills are "reported" with elephant

What is more surprising is that relatively few PHs have the nerve to get really close on elephant, especially in countries where elephant are hunted less frequently.

I can remember once with Nassos being backed into the hollow formed by the roots of a gigantic fig tree with an angry elephant cow just far enough away that she couldn't reach us unless she used her trunk. We both had her covered and and Nassos kept saying..."don't shoot...don't shoot, don't shoot!" We never had to pull the trigger but if that trunk had crossed the treshold I'm sure he would have left the "don't" off. I've always thought that was too close!
Rich Elliott

Posted by 500 grains

quote:

What is more surprising is that relatively few PHs have the nerve to get really close on elephant, especially in countries where elephant are hunted less frequently.

500 grains1

Nerve or common sense? Guess it is up to the beholder to define!


465H&H

I have been inside 10 yards on many elephant, and 15-20 is better, and plenty close enough.

That PH is absolutely right, IMHO.

Ha! Sometimes you don't have a choice. If you can shoot what does it matter? As long as it doesn't fall on you.

I've shot 3 and all were from 15 to 20 yds. Any closer and I would probably have to ride home in the back of the truck. The last was in a big herd right at dark and what was REALLY scary was trying to follow in the dark with elephants from the large herd all around. Finally got our senses and went back to truck and came back next morning. They are rather big and scare hell out of me at close range.

I'm not an Elephant hunter, as most here know, but I do have to agree with the old PH!That PH got old by not takeing undue chances!

I have been that close to old duggboys in tight thorn, and not be able to see any of them except the target, but it wasn't a secret his buddies were there. Your heart goes cold when the sear breaks on that first shot, and your ears can hear every one of the band of bad boys, but your eyes can't see any one of them.

IMO, this is amplified when one is takeing on Elephant in that kind of cover. We've stumbled onto ele, in thick stuff, at close range, while trailing Buffalo. It is amaseing how hard an elephant is to see in cover,from real close, if he doesn't move. Thank God I never had to shoot one, because I'd still be there with the paper work, and working off the trophy fee!
............................

I have read that the average full grown ele has a walking stride that is three yards.

I am guessing that if one suddenly started to charge that his first stride would be that, [3 yards] and the next quickly taken stride would be LONGER and the third, etc, etc, up to a point.

I think that I would want to be at least half a dozen ele strides away from an angry/scared ele, and maybe a dozen would be more prudent.

I'm no elephant hunter yet, but I like hunting with PHs that want the job done and no drama. I'm paying a professional to minimize the risks. I'll take the shot that further mitigates the risk. I expect them to tell me when we are close enough, and when we're too close. I'm a good listener. I'll do my part.

I know there are probably people that want to run up and slap an elephant on the ass, but to me they are bungee jumpers not hunters. If I just want a cheap thrill I'll run through Mumbai expressway traffic.

465
There appears that there must be a clear distinction for hunting herd eles or tusked trophy eles. In a herd situation, it is not always possible to get a clear shot at 20-25 yds because the herds also seem to head for the thick Jesse.. That would actually be my preference, but the visibility is such sometimes that one must wait until the tuskless ele boils through the Jesse and that can be close at times. But 5 yds is too close for as my reactions are just not that crisp anymore. What really upsets me is when a female ele with ivory charges because you don't want to shoot it, but how close is too close! A dangerous situation to my way of thinking, because of the indecision involved. Met a bow hunter at Afton House several weeks ago who informed me that his next project is to take an ele at 5 yards. Good Luck!

Dak

Myles McCallum, Buzz Charltons partner, got me within 9 paces of my cow elephant in fairly open terrain.

Being November in Dande North you had good visability.

He tried to get her to face me, but she shied away and kept close to the herd matriarch.

I am only 5 foot 5 inches so 9 of my paces are under 9 yards.

Myles gave me the hunt of a lifetime and I really enjoyed my elephant.



It was alot closer than I would have expected, and next time I will be shooting a peep sight or 1.1 scope.

Was it too close? I dont think so, this late in season, we all knew what was where, and had good visability.

PS I am the little white guy with high visability clothing (chase him!)

Never said I was smart.

Andy

500:
Rule #1 for any PH: Protect the client at all times and DON'T place him in a potentially dangerous situation.

A client at sub 15 paces on an uninjured elephant is a potentially VERY dangerous situation.

But you know what you're doing of course

If you think a PH will never put you in harms way, unintentionally or otherwise, you're dreaming.

That is not what I said; maybe what you want to hear.

We are answering a specific question:- How close is too close in a hunting situation where you are the hunting client - and I assume a hunting "client" is always accompanied by a PH. This is how I interpreted the question by 465 Especially with regards to elephant hunitng....

Under Zim Parks regulations you cannot claim that you shot an elephant in self defence if it is more than ten metres from you.

That is an awkward one as I have had both elephant and lion charges break at 6-8 paces, but the collective wisdom of men like Clem Coetsee, Paul Grobbellar, Mike La Grange et al, was that for your "average" PH or guide, 10 metres marked the safety line.

There is a brilliant bit of footage out there of Ivan Carter fending off an angry cow. He is running backwards shouting at her. She is so close that her trunk is over his rifle and within a 18" of his face. She breaks off as soon as Ivan gets back beyond her calf. Ivan said he knew that as soon as he was no longer infront of her calf she would stop- and she did. I would have shot her (but I am a cunning coward and there is only one of me and 120,000 ele's running round my neck of the woods). Part of the difference is that Ivan made his name as a photographic guide doing his level best NOT to shoot ele's infront of his bunny hugger tourists and learned to read moods and behaviour much better than most PH's ever do.

Ganyana,
I respect that as a rule for PH's backing up on safari or other duty but for a client? What is acceptable in your opinion?

Mitch

Personally... twenty metres is a good rule on elephant or buff. Closer than that and you have only one chance to solve the problem unless you own a double.

Also- despite my periodic "tif" with Will on big bore vs small bore - my 9,3 will drop any ele or buff as cleanly as any .500 but... it will not break the momentum of the charge. I have never experienced it with elephant but have with buff and lion- spine broken dead animal sliding towards you. 1600lbs of buff hitting you in the legs at 20 mph kinda hurts. 5 tonnes of ele makes for a funeral.

The parks records show that no hunter suprised in the jess at ranges of under 6 yards by elephant has ever suceeded in escaping unhurt unless they were armed with at least a .40 cal. and that the odds only reach above 50% if you are carrying something bigger than a .458/.450NE.

My uncle was a perfect example of this. He favoured a little double in 6,5 for poaching as it had a relatively quiet report that didn't carry too far. One day, Ted Davison was away in Slisbury and his ranger on station down with malaria when an elephant killed somebody along the boundry of the park (wankie). The ranger phoned Lionel as the best know poacher living in the area and sent a scout along with a permit for him to shoot the offending bull. Lionel caught up with it in some thick gusu bush just next to the railway line (and old strip road) . The bull charrged and lionel brained it- only to be killed by either the trunk or a tusk hitting him on the head. If you drive from bullawayo to vic falls you can see his grave next to the railway line. Aledgedly the only elephant he had ever legally shot- but a good reminder not to take small bores into thick cover.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
500:
Rule #1 for any PH: Protect the client at all times and DON'T place him in a potentially dangerous situation.

OK, so don't take the client elephant hunting.

quote:

A client at sub 15 paces on an uninjured elephant is a potentially VERY dangerous situation.

Driving a car is a potentially VERY dangerous situation. Don't let elephant psyche you out.

Dave,
I have never hunted ele but why taking risks ??
If I have a clear shot at 50 yards I will shoot as with any other animal, why I will hold fire till be at 10 yards ??
I am just a hunter not an adrenalin adict...

Driving cars is potentially dangerous, I agree, but I don't go at full speed in a dangerous road..and you ???

Don't misunderstand me, I am not saying you are wrong, just my opinion but as I said, I don't know nothing about elephant hunting...

L

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
OK, so don't take the client elephant hunting.

So you are saying don't take a client out elephant hunting if you can't get within 10 yards for a shot?

Never mind....I can see where this is going.
Good hunting!

Same question as Lorenzo.....
Why do you have to get so close to an elephant to shoot?

Elephant hunting for sport is an unnessecary pursuit. It has some risk no matter what appraoch you take. Some do it for the trophy and others, especially the repeat elephant hunters it seems, do it for the adrenalin, fear, excitement...

For the trophy hunter, close enough to get the job done is enough. This entails minimal risk.

But for the others, and I include myself in this group, closer is better. An elephant at 50yds is a whole lot less exciting than an elephant at 25yds, which is nowhere near as exciting as an elephant at 12yds. Its a non linear relationship. More risk here.

Its up to the client and his PH to decide how close to get and what level of risk to accept. To make an informed decision, the client needs at least some experience, imo. For example, Andy's elephant at 9 paces in the fairly open ground shown in his photo is a relatively safe hunt compared to the same distance in the thick stuff. This is intuitive, but the risk rises dramatically, and this isn't so intuitive it seems to me. Add in that elephants from cerain areas are known to be generally more agressive.

Importantly, unlike bungi jumping, you have at least some influence on the outcome if things go south. Bungi jumping and other passive thrill seeking and you are at the mercy of gravity when things go bad. Elephant hunting you can at least try to save your own hide.

I have been as close as five or six yards from elephants, both intentionally and unintentionally but have not shot at this range. I think ten yards is really close for me, at least for now. Maybe with more experience ten yards will turn out to be not so close.(Editted- or maybe with more experience ten yards will turn out to be too close)

JPK

If, at full charge, the now stopped animal slides intot he client and injures him, that's too close

jeffe

I'm with JPK on this.

And felt reasonably "comfortable" to be around 10 meters from elephant. Which we were so many times that I finally lost count. And eventually, this was the distance I shot my tuskless cow last year while it was heading towards me.

Shooting one at over 20-25 meters would be pointless for me personally, as I enjoyed being able to sneak all the way up to them far more than the final shot itself. Which is basically why we snuck in and out of herds for several days before I shot one (Besides an incident with a cow that charged and was shot by Myles McCallum from only 2-3 meters).

Getting into an elephant within 10 yards is just suicidal, as I doubt that there are many folks around that could actually drop an elephant that charges from 10 yards. And 10 yards is close, sometimes exaggerated by PH's. There are a lot of "6 yard" kills that I suspect are 2 or 3 times that distance. At 10 yards or less you have one chance to drop it in a REAL charge whether using a double or bolt.

Ganyana,

Ivan Carter is not the first guy that thought he knew everything about elephants. Someday he is going to get it. And it makes a difference where you are trying to bluff elephants, whether the parks, or a hunting area where elephants get continually harrassed.

And Ivan got a photo client 'et by a lion. I would not be a bit surprised that he gets the same, so to speak, someday by an elephant.

quote:

Originally posted by Lorenzo:
Dave,
I have never hunted ele but why taking risks ??
If I have a clear shot at 50 yards I will shoot as with any other animal, why I will hold fire till be at 10 yards ??

Lorenzo, if others wish to shoot elephant at 40 or 50 yards and that provides them with an enjoyable hunt, then of course I have no objection at all to that. What I object to is a proposed rule that we shall not approach closer than 15 yards promulgated by a person suffering from either limited experience or fear. The elephants I have shot have been from 7 to 25 yards, and the closer ones have definitely been more fun.

Probably anything under 10 yards, or even under 20 yards, is too close for all but the most enthusiastic participants in this sport. In fact at least one experienced elephant hand who shows up here does his best to hang back from the PH and not approach elephant any more closely than absolutely necessary. I do not fault him for that, but I wonder why he would criticize those who walk right up to an elephant and get the job done.

Ganyana,

Sorry to hear about your uncle.

When did he pas away?

Myles McCallum had my back when I shot my elephant, and I had an added advantage of terrain to protect me. I was on top of a termite mound, looking at her eye to eye.



When I shot her, the matriarch made alot of noise, and Myles told me to run for it. He covered her as she came around the termite mound and I beat feet out of there. I would not say I was chased off the mound as it was voluntary, but I did leave in a hurry!

Myles did his job, and I did what he told me to do, which is probably a good relationship to have with a PH!

For what its worth, I felt more at risk when close to the elephant herds that were in the forest rather than in the open. We just did not fiind any tuskless cows there. Visability and situational awareness was better than I expected but it was clearly more exciting. Partly due to their being so many of them. These stalks were great fun.

Andy

Ganyana,

Just curious about things.

With respect to Zimbabwe could you tell us approximately how many PHs you would trust to take a client to within 10 yards of a lone elephant bull?

And of the clients you have hunted with, how many of them would you trust to accompany you to within 10 yards of a lone elephant bull?

There is a very good reason to get as close as possible, within reason, to an elephant in that there is a much better chance of hitting the brain than when attempted at greater distances.

Also, less chance of hitting intervening brush, etc. Seeing a wounded elephant run off is not a pleasant sight!

quote:

Bwanamich
Rule #1 for any PH: Protect the client at all times and DON'T place him in a potentially dangerous situation.

A client at sub 15 paces on an uninjured elephant is a potentially VERY dangerous situation.

quote:

Dave,
I have never hunted ele but why taking risks ??
If I have a clear shot at 50 yards I will shoot as with any other animal, why I will hold fire till be at 10 yards ??
I am just a hunter not an adrenalin adict...

Bwanamich I have a idea for a new bussiness for you : you could get a large screen and some safari viedos. Then you could sell risk free virtual Safari. You could send the client home with a plastic replica of a pair of tusk, or if I remember right you like to shoot your clients animals for them. you could go out and shoot some ele from your truck and then give them real tusk.

Why take the risk? Becuse when I'm at the end of my life I don't want to look back wonder what I did with all the years. I want to be more than a spectator, I don't have a fan personality, I want to play.

Winners always want the ball.


Dr B

"A ship in the harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for."

quote:

Originally posted by Dr B:
Why take the risk? Becuse when I'm at the end of my life I don't want to look back wonder what I did with all the years. I want to be more than a spectator, I don't have a fan personality, I want to play.

Winners always want the ball.


Dr B

"

To be honest, and sorry for being honest, I think all this is pure BS !!
I respet Dave explanation, he enjoy it closer and I think nobody can say him nothing, is the way he like it and each hunter has his own style of hunting.

But about taking risk and winners wanting the ball, I will only tell you that I hunt for sport and nothing more, and I don't want to take unecessary risks, I have a little boy and I want to see him grow up and I want to be there to take care of him, the true brave men risk everything for their families not for a stupid ego.

I will be very happy with what I will see the day I look back, believe me.

Meanwhile I will shoot my game whenever I have a clear shot, being this at 10 or at 100 metres!!

Lorenzo

quote:

Originally posted by Lorenzo:
I will only tell you that I hunt for sport and nothing more, and I don't want to take unecessary risks, I have a little boy and I want to see him grow up and I want to be there to take care of him, the true brave men risk everything for their families not for a stupid ego.

I will be very happy with what I will see the day I look back, believe me.

Meanwhile I will shoot my game whenever I have a clear shot, being this at 10 or at 100 metres!!

Lorenzo

Well said.

Dr. B,
You are prime MS fodder.

I was right when I said

quote:

Never mind....I can see where this is going.

500 Grains

How many PH's would I trust to take a client within 10 yards of an ele?... proably only a dozen or so that are still active.

I have often had this argument with the younger PH's with regard culling- they all want to be involved (when we start again). My concern is that too few of them have personally shot enough elephant to pull of brain shots from any angle to be usble on a cull. I certainly haven't.

In Parks, wanabee culling officers were sent out after problem animals until they had racked up at least 50 animals. Then they were used as flankers on a cull. When a cull starts any bulls with the herd break and run- the flankers job is to make sure they don't get away. When you could consistently take three or more running bulls with brain shots, you might graduate to being the cull leader on small culls until you were up to speed.

IMHO you must be able to find the brain at any angle to take a client in that close - and also be able to take "wrong angle" shots on a moving animal. At 20 yards a charging ele is an easy shot. At 10 yards when it is charging your client - who is off to one side, or worse, is backing off at an angle- that shot placement becomes a critical blend of judging angles and speed. Some people have a natural instinct for judging that- I don't. I have to pause and think about it which at close range isn't the plot.

I have never been in that predicament with elephant- but have with buff. Again a buff charging you is relatively easy- chasing a game scout who is running off... Even at a range of 3 - 7 paces trying to judge speed and angles to get a spine shot in took me 7 shots (I had an F.N. in my hands).

Many of the younger PH's are probably fine- I just don't know it for sure. I have seen too many cock ups on the proficiency by guys who are good shots and have 30+ eles under their belts to simply trust anybody.