I remember 7 and 9 shots to put certain animals down. I'm sure that has never happened to anyone else!! I don't know if I would want that many empty cartridge cases around after the fact to remind me of my less than stellar day of shooting.

Mark

Slightly off topic, but we have always had a habit of deliberately leaving brass in the veld.
This is not really littering, but, especially in the days pre-reloading, that brass always tells a story.
On my ranch we find old .500 cases, as used by my great-great grandfather a hundred years ago, Snyders, muskets and of course countless .303's and then every conceivable modern cartridge.
It is a shame in a way that we now all collect our brass.

It is a shocking thing to see a guy with a buff jumping around in front of him wearing one bullet searching the ground, or trying to catch his brass in the air. But we see it A LOT on safari. Stupid in the extreme.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
I remember 7 and 9 shots to put certain animals down. I'm sure that has never happened to anyone else!! I don't know if I would want that many empty cartridge cases around after the fact to remind me of my less than stellar day of shooting.

Mark

with your own rifle and ammo that should not happen

Shotaway,

I agree but it did and I think as most of us do more and more African hunting we most likely will run into one of those inexplicable days where we just can't shoot for shit.

Mark

quote:

Is it just instinct to these guys?

From watching African hunting videos I would say not. There is more going on than just bad habits.

It appears that a lot of hunters are befuddled old men who's nerves have fallen apaprt at the critical moment. They don't appear to be totally in tune with what is going on. The PH has to pull them by the shirt and give them specific instructions to do basic things like move to a position where they can see the animal and put their rifle up and fire.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Shotaway,

I agree but it did and I think as most of us do more and more African hunting we most likely will run into one of those inexplicable days where we just can't shoot for shit.

Mark

Sorry Mark,I thought I was responding to a post by Todd Williams.
I know what you mean...

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Shotaway,

I agree but it did and I think as most of us do more and more African hunting we most likely will run into one of those inexplicable days where we just can't shoot for shit.

Mark

I've had one or three of those.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Shotaway,

I agree but it did and I think as most of us do more and more African hunting we most likely will run into one of those inexplicable days where we just can't shoot for shit.

Mark

Sorry Mark,I thought I was responding to a post by Todd Williams.
I know what you mean...

Looking to wake some snakes are you George?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
This is my 31st year of hunting in Africa.

I have developed a habit of never letting my empties hit the ground. And I cannot remember every loosing a case, or ever being in any sort of danger.

This despite the fact that I have shot at least 200 dangerous game animals.

Including several elephants, lions, leopards and buffalo.

On one occasion I dropped two lions within feet of each other after being charged by a lioness.

On several occasions I have dropped 2,3 or 4 buffalo within a few yards of each other.

Again, all cases are saved.

I think it depends of training yourself.

Saeed,

I was just wondering,...Where do you then immediately put/keep the brass cases you are collecting, while you continue to rapidly
shoot at the next lion or BUff....?

I noticed Mark Sullivan hitting a charging Buff at just a couple yd,
then taking the time to put the two cases into the side pocket of his loosely flapping spray jacket{using his right hand}
followed by him switching to using his left hand, to grab rounds from the front of his waist, in order to then reload.
....al this while/after a charging Buff had just stopped at his feet, just a yd or two away.

Sullivans markmanship was really good, but the slow gun/cartridge handling process that followed seemed rather unnecessarily time consuming & ametuerish.

quote:

Originally posted by Wendell Reich:

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
We as humans will react under stress exactly to the level and quality of our training. The saying goes, you will never rise to the occasion in times of stress rather you will fall to your level of training. The FBI used to require as part of their firing range training that agents police and pick up their brass after each reload during a course of fire, requiring the shooter to fire his revolver reload and pick their brass before re engaging the target just exactly like they were trained and drilled on the firing range.

They started to find that most of their agents that were shot in the line of duty had pockets full of empty brass, guess what? In times of stress the agents were stopping mid firefight to pick up their brass just exactly like they did at the firing range. Train the way you fight, fight the way you train.

The same can be said for hunting and DG hunting in particular train the way you hunt, hunt the way you train.

So my advice is that you practice firing your rifle, practice reloading your rifle, practice moving and reloading, snap shooting, emergency reloading and doing all of the things you should be doing to get good with any firearm and after you're done for the day and have relaxed a bit then you go and collect your brass. NEVER do it while in the middle of a shooting drill.

Stress is a funny thing and your brain will revert to the most basic motor skills that you have drilled into in times of stress. So make those basic skills meaningful or you're looking for trouble.

Excellent example. Which reminds me, I need to load some more .45s.

+1 VERY VERY true !! I have had numerous occasions when a guy shoots a Buff or lion and then just looks at it. You almost need to give him a light tap to the head as he is so zoned outto reload and shoot again.

The worst cases have both been on Buff. 1 after shooting out his 4 rounds the buff was standing 40 yds away watching us, in thick cover. I was at the ready telling him to put 1 in and shoot. He was hunting with 2 rifles, a 300win mag and his 375H&H both had silver rounds, so needlesws to say he was trying to stuff a 300win mag into his 375 with a wounded buff 40 yds away. Then he got the shakes so bad he couldnt do anything, I had to ask the camera man to help him. At that point we heard the below.

THE OTHER PET HATE IS WHEN YOU HAVE A WOUNDED ANIMAL CLOSE THAT IS RUNNING AWAY, PEOPLE WANT TO LOAD ALL 4 OR 5 ROUNDS INTO THE MAG BEFORE FIRING AND THEN IT MUST BE STANDING BROADSIDE.

Put 1 in and squeeze it off to hit him ANYWHERE
repeat if needed. By the time you have 5 rounds in hes gonna be gone.

Good post SURESTRIKE

Just a thought: you need to own a minimum of two Doubles,and actually have used them on Dangerous Game at least three Safaris before you are allowed to use the phrase "bolt trash..."
If you are just starting out you could go with a 9,3x74R and a 470 NE like I did.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
This is my 31st year of hunting in Africa.

I have developed a habit of never letting my empties hit the ground. And I cannot remember every loosing a case, or ever being in any sort of danger.

This despite the fact that I have shot at least 200 dangerous game animals.

Including several elephants, lions, leopards and buffalo.

On one occasion I dropped two lions within feet of each other after being charged by a lioness.

On several occasions I have dropped 2,3 or 4 buffalo within a few yards of each other.

Again, all cases are saved.

I think it depends of training yourself.

Saeed,

I was just wondering,...Where do you then immediately put/keep the brass cases you are collecting, while you continue to rapidly
shoot at the next lion or BUff....?

I noticed Mark Sullivan hitting a charging Buff at just a couple yd,
then taking the time to put the two cases into the side pocket of his loosely flapping spray jacket{using his right hand}
followed by him switching to using his left hand, to grab rounds from the front of his waist, in order to then reload.
....al this while/after a charging Buff had just stopped at his feet, just a yd or two away.

Sullivans markmanship was really good, but the slow gun/cartridge handling process that followed seemed rather unnecessarily time consuming & ametuerish.

I normally put my left hand on the right hand side of the loading port to get hold of the empty case. If it is only one or two I keep them in my left hand, and that has never been a bother for me.

On some occasions when I have shot several buffalo at a time, I put the empties in my pocket.

And Mark is right, if you hunt in very thick bush, you will get times when you have to fire what seems like a war barrage! Because the bullet never make it to the target.

Anything on the way of the bullet will deflect it.

This year I missed a zebra and a hyena due to hitting a twig that I could not see.

A photo of one is posted on my hunt report.

The amazing part is that once I killed a warthog after shooting through a tree trunk that was at least 3-4 inches in diameter.

The bullet went straight through and killed the warthog.

quote:

Sullivans markmanship was really good, but the slow gun/cartridge handling process that followed seemed rather unnecessarily time consuming & ametuerish.

If the buffalo is dead on the ground, it is dead - no need of wasted shots.

Assuming Mark suffers from some form of muscle impairment that does not allow him to perform the desired speed reloading, he has aptly countered this deficiency with some convincing marksmanship.

quote:

If the buffalo is dead on the ground, it is dead - no need of wasted shots.

You mean and miss an opportunity to play the GREAT WHITE HUNTER HERO?

2 days ago we followed 3 buffalo and caught up with them feeding in long grass.

As our4 chosen bull came clear, I put a bullet into his chest.

He ran a few yards and stood facing away at an angle.

I put another bullet into him.

He was still on his feet. I was about to shoot him again in the head, when my PH, Alan Vincent, said, "don't shoot. He is already dead. Blood is pouring out of his mouth."

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Sullivans markmanship was really good, but the slow gun/cartridge handling process that followed seemed rather unnecessarily time consuming & ametuerish.

If the buffalo is dead on the ground, it is dead - no need of wasted shots.

THe charging buff dropped to the ground[assumingly dead] just a yd or so away from MS.
Clearly MS was not totally convinced that the buff was dead, cause he kept a weary eye on it, from a yd or two away.
YEt he took lazy time to reload his SxS, despite the possiblity that more shots could have been rapidly required
at that very close distance.

Would you waste time fumbling to put spent brass into your jacket pocket,after a charging buff has just dropped at your feet,
or would you opt to quickly fling the stuff and get your hands free to reload ones SxS ASAP, in order to be ready for anything
that could unfold next?

Wise hunters/PHs dont make the foolish assumption that the DG is dead just because it dropped, and will reload ASAP and approach
the beast still with great caution & total readiness with their rifle.

If the downed DG is 50yd away, i guess one could have time to waste fumbling to put spent brass in ones pockets before reloading,
just does not seem the smart thing to do when the charging beast has just stopped/dropped right at ones feet.

Trax:

When someone like MS, with his vast and unequaled experience of the hundreds of charges to his credit, shows such a casual attitude in reloading, it is the same experience that tells him "this one aint going' nowhere".

By comparison, I honestly do not believe there is another living soul in the hunting profession that has had so many charges from the available variety of DG - though I do not recall many if any, from the cats, his reputation as a "cat man" is also considered as being second to none.

Would I be right in saying you probably dont want to experience too many kitty cat charges??

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Would I be right in saying you probably dont want to experience too many kitty cat charges??

Asstraallians never could understand or speak English properly.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
[

Asstraallians never could understand or speak English properly.

Even the one employed to help King George with his speech impediments.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Would I be right in saying you probably dont want to experience too many kitty cat charges??

Asstraallians never could understand or speak English properly.

We don't speak English, we speak Strayn!!

quote:

but the expended brass also makes for a good trophy and brings back memories. I also keep any recovered bullets and the skinners received a reward for any recoveries. Not for an analysis of effectiveness ,just for the memories.

This is a good thread with multiple issues.

Training ahead of time is mandatory.
A quick palming of a spent case is also appropriate as Saeed has testified.
A backup plan of having a tracker pick up spent cases is also good advice.

Finally, the cases do make extra little trophies
and they tell interesting stories:


This was last years' buffalo. The Barnes TSX suffered some trauma smashing through the face and along the neck. Buffalo down. 2825 fps muzzle, 70 yard impact.


And last year's hartebeest.

same bullet and muzzle fps. 180 yard impact, diagonal, inside front shoulder.

Most cases just get reloaded, a few lucky ones are 'retired', and some get lost. No big deal

quote:

by Surestrike:

“Train the way you fight, fight the way you train.”

Absolutely! Most of the members at DRSS shoots practice firing both shots on target as quickly as possible, with a re-load, as quickly as possible, timed and scored for accuracy! No thought is given to the ejected brass till the shoot is over! We hunt with doubles the same way, as Surestrike says PRACTICE the way you hunt, and hunt the way you PRACTICE! Very good advice, especially when hunting dangerous game!

................................................................ .......

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

Asstraallians never could understand or speak English properly.

We don't speak English, we speak Strayn!!

..............................

I don't understand why anyone woulds fiddle around collecting brass on safari.

I shoot and reload without taking the rifle from my shoulder (bolt trash). The cases go...wherever. Sometimes a tracker picks them up. Sometimes not.

At the end of the safari I leave all my loaded ammo with the PH. Any cases are also in the ammo boxes.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
I don't understand why anyone woulds fiddle around collecting brass on safari.

I shoot and reload without taking the rifle from my shoulder (bolt trash). The cases go...wherever. Sometimes a tracker picks them up. Sometimes not.

At the end of the safari I leave all my loaded ammo with the PH. Any cases are also in the ammo boxes.

Some of us use wildcats, and prefer to use our own brass, without having to make new ones.

I have some cases that have been on safari at least 10 times, and they are still usable.

Each case I bring back is examined closely, and if does not show any signs of deteriorations, it get loaded for the next year's hunt.

Our reamers, and loading dies, are made to our specs, and I find that helps enormously for maintaining the size and shape of the fired cases, for use in additional loads in the future.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Some of us use wildcats, and prefer to use our own brass, without having to make new ones.

I have some cases that have been on safari at least 10 times, and they are still usable.

Each case I bring back is examined closely, and if does not show any signs of deteriorations, it get loaded for the next year's hunt.

Our reamers, and loading dies, are made to our specs, and I find that helps enormously for maintaining the size and shape of the fired cases, for use in additional loads in the future.

I understand protecting the brass, that has been fire-formed in your rifle and recovering as much as you can, as long as it doesn't interfere with the action at hand!

The need to have good fire-formed brass especially when shooting wildcats, or double rifles is real!

The properly fire forming of a wildcat, or double rifle brass is the key to why this brass is often collected religiously and why some have brass that lasts a lot longer than other people who shoot and re-load the same make!

A fine example of this is NORMA brass in double rifles! Many who shoot this brass in double rifles get head separations. This is not as much the brand of the brass, as it is how it is resized for reloads. Mindless full length re-sizing is the wrong way and gives less brass life than properly neck sizing only!

Once I fire a case in my double rifle, I only neck-size the brass, and I have a couple hundred pieces of Norma brass that has been re-loaded God only knows how many times, and no head separations. Of course after the brass is sized it is tried in the chambers of my double to see it headspaces properly. All re-loaded ammo is also tried in both chambers of my doubles before taking it hunting.

The cost of big nitro cases is considerable, but that is not as much of a concern as availability. Many times large nitro brass is simply not available at any price for months on end. So it makes sense to at least try to save it.

I find anything from searching for ejected brass while the action is not over, or admiring the shot instead of re-loading, or fumbling with getting new rounds from a butt-stock ammo carrier to be more of a concern than simply picking up the empties.

........

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
I killed a cow elk two weeks ago. After putting in a finisher(head shot) I thought to look for the brass on the ground.

I was surprised to find that both empties were in my chest pocket. Maybe fairies put them there?

I agree that it is a horrible habit.

I do the same. It's strange how I don't remember doing it but brass ends up in my pockets too.

Given I always try and maintain visual contact with the game, my hands work on auto pilot.

K

quote:

Originally posted by Fallow Buck:

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
I killed a cow elk two weeks ago. After putting in a finisher(head shot) I thought to look for the brass on the ground.

I was surprised to find that both empties were in my chest pocket. Maybe fairies put them there?

I agree that it is a horrible habit.

I do the same. It's strange how I don't remember doing it but brass ends up in my pockets too.

Given I always try and maintain visual contact with the game, my hands work on auto pilot.

K

I guess(?) I'm glad that I'm not the only one...

As I said, it is a horrible habit.

quote:

I guess(?) I'm glad that I'm not the only one...As I said, it is a horrible habit. Jason

And I hope I never grow out of it!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

I guess(?) I'm glad that I'm not the only one...As I said, it is a horrible habit. Jason

And I hope I never grow out of it!

There are as small number of guys who can shoot cormorants out of the air with double rifles and there are also a small number of guys who can shoot 200 buffalo while catching every piece of brass. (those guys can also do things like win Texas trapshooting championships...)

The rest of us are merely mortal and can only hope that most of our kills are uneventful.