quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by big toms:
I am done with FB and its very biased leanings. As a hunter, conservationist and Zimbabwean living in the States, I was appalled at the post and the comments accompanying it so I deactivated and gave them my reasons why (not that they will miss me but it surely made me feel better). Cheers.

Good approach. I have never understood the fascination of some . . . bordering on an almost obsession in some cases . . . with Facebook.

Really? So you prefer that Facebook be comprised of a billion plus members who are totally against hunting rather than also having a handful that got this photo taken down?

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I don't give up. I fight the bastards every chance I get.

Yup!! Thanks for the thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Slider:

quote:

In my opinion (and likely mine alone)I believe that hunters posting pictures up on FB is nothing but self promotion. I don't think anyone here would argue that it furthers our sport, help our cause or makes us any friends.

Sure it does. If an Anti questions one of my images I give them BOTH BARRELS on the REASON Hunters are the TRUE CONSERVATIONIST and they BACK RIGHT DOWN!!!

And I'm sure you've convinced them by aggression.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Slider:

quote:

In my opinion (and likely mine alone)I believe that hunters posting pictures up on FB is nothing but self promotion. I don't think anyone here would argue that it furthers our sport, help our cause or makes us any friends.

Sure it does. If an Anti questions one of my images I give them BOTH BARRELS on the REASON Hunters are the TRUE CONSERVATIONIST and they BACK RIGHT DOWN!!!

And I'm sure you've convinced them by aggression.

It is not the anti that matters it is the high school student, the college student, the 6 grade student that wants to be a vet that sees his reply to the anti Hunter that matters.

Hiding our natural and right way of life from the greater world will cause us to be destroyed. To not engage the enemy publicly is death.

I believe as hunting goes so does society. Only in a world were hunting; including mega fauna, which man has been hunting before we could write is deemed evil could a man taking hormones to be a woman be called normal. Not that I support there persecution; just do not want my tax dollars paying for it. Something man as always done bad, something man could not do without the rise of modern society permissible and louded. I will take hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Slider:

quote:

In my opinion (and likely mine alone)I believe that hunters posting pictures up on FB is nothing but self promotion. I don't think anyone here would argue that it furthers our sport, help our cause or makes us any friends.

Sure it does. If an Anti questions one of my images I give them BOTH BARRELS on the REASON Hunters are the TRUE CONSERVATIONIST and they BACK RIGHT DOWN!!!

And I'm sure you've convinced them by aggression.

It is not the anti that matters it is the high school student, the college student, the 6 grade student that wants to be a vet that sees his reply to the anti Hunter that matters.

Hiding our natural and right way of life from the greater world will cause us to be destroyed. To not engage the enemy publicly is death.

I believe as hunting goes so does society. Only in a world were hunting; including mega fauna, which man has been hunting before we could write is deemed evil could a man taking hormones to be a woman be called normal. Not that I support there persecution; just do not want my tax dollars paying for it. Something man as always done bad, something man could not do without the rise of modern society permissible and louded. I will take hunting.

I am on your table mate.

I am a great believer on promoting my hunting model which reclaims barren lands and promotes direct partnerships in hunting with rural communities. This is their want and it is their lands.

Personally I am convinced what we do is right and will promote it anywhere we can.

I have had very little disturbance by anti hunters probably because of my communal participation?

I think we have to realize that all anti hunters are not the same.

There are these foaming at the mouth types that, quite honestly, other than for entertainment value, there is no reason or good to ever engage them. These are people openly cheering the death of a fellow human being, the father of 5 children. There is nothing that we can ever say or do that will every change these people. On the other hand, acting like a total ass will give them, at least in their mind, total confirmation of their beliefs.

On the other end of the spectrum, there are anti- hunters who are actually open minded. They simply have bad information. My wife WAS one of those. When I first met her, she made some comment about elephants being these gentle giants. I broke out laughing. She was confused. I showed her one of my videos. She was totally shocked when she saw the elephants trying to kill us. Being the observant type that she is, she wanted to know why my shirt was drenched. I had just walked about 25 miles in 120 degree heat. She previously thought we drove around in air-conditioned trucks and shot things out the windows. She is a bright woman. A hand surgeon with an Ivy league education. She quickly realized that she had it wrong, way wrong. She has taken the time to learn. It is absolutely hysterical to hear her talk to others about hunting now. She is done an about face. We can talk with these. These can be converted.

No matter how wrong, how stupid, how ridiculous, or how rude they might be, it serves us no good to act like a total ass ourselves. It might be fun but in the long run, counter productive.

Steve is right about the social media. It has to be used carefully, very carefully. I have mine private. Tasteless pictures are the worst. The antis are right here on AR on a routine basis. They take pictures and information off of AR for their own use. A little digression goes a long way.

Great post Larry.

Another good point is that Lheym500 and Randall (CHC) are both hunters. They both contribute to the pro-hunting agenda in their own way. We need to work harder at seeing each other's points and staying united...as we are a minority.

The major concept all too many of us that were BORN hunters, seem to have a difficult time understanding is that we are all in the same boat.

Attempting to ignore or completely dismiss the reality of what is happening, WorldWide, to hunting and the changing attitudes toward hunting and hunters is not accomplishing anything.

Attacking other hunters because they do not seem to have the same "Beliefs" or attitudes concerning the situation, is self defeating for hunters as a group, as it is divisive and only adds to the problem.

In September of this year, I will have been physically hunting for 50 years, however the urge has been in my system evidently since I was born.

I plan to continue hunting as long as my body and eyesight hold out.

I am also a realist, and know when an enemy has gained enough power to impact my life. Why help my enemy in any manner?

Does infighting or slinging accusations about another person you actually do not know, have never met, probably will never meet, simply because they do not seem to have the same zeal or "Fire" as you accomplishing anything other than creating lines of division.

Across the planet, so many people in the last couple of generations especially, have grown away from the Natural World and our place in the scheme of things.

Having worked as a Zookeeper for 25 years, starting in 1982 and ending in 2006, I witnessed first hand the changing attitudes people developed toward animals and issues such as hunting.

I did my part to try and provide factual information to not only the Public concerning wildlife and the role hunting plays, but also my fellow zookeepers, many of whom are/were rabid anti-hunters.

In many or most cases, the problem so many had/have evolve's around the concepts of hunting for "Trophies Only".

Most folks have no real trouble with hunting for food, even though they question why someone would hunt, instead of just going to the store and buying meat.

I did find out however that even folks that claim to lean toward being Vegan, somehow just simply have to "Try" fresh cooked elk/deer/pronghorn or fish caught at a local lake or pond.

This one concept rears its ugly head EVERY TIME a discussion concerning the Future of hunting shows up on here, those that have the most to lose simply can not find "Common Ground" so begin personal attacks that only further divide us.

Does not seem to matter that hunters have a growing, fairly well organized/funded and vocal enemy, that has been working Overtime for about 3 maybe 4 decades to take hunting away from us, we have to find reasons to attack each other.

Somehow that really does not seem like wise strategy.

I was very saddened to see a lot of negative responses on Breibart of all places about Botha's death. Do t know if the trolls were out in force, or that many conservatives are now anti's.
I do agree that we need to stay united as hunters because no matter how much we subdivide ourselves: meat hunter, safari hunter, bow hunter, all they care about is the hunter part and they want us stopped.

quote:

And I'm sure you've convinced them by aggression.

No need for aggression I am simply Vigilant. Here is a resent post from a 20 something woman. Cowaring in a closet is what damages our great sport!!!

Michael Fox We had Zebra for Dinner last night. It was EXELLENT. The Zebra here are overpopulated. Every bit of the animal is used. The hunters gives much needed dollars for the African economy. Drilling wells for water is one of them.
Like · Reply · 10 · April 21 at 3:39am · Edited
Crystal Keen
Crystal Keen This makes me feel better about this whole situation. I understand we all love to see zebra because we in America aren't used to seeing them daily but every culture is different. Thank you for the clarification.

Trophy hunters are just as much meat hunters as anybody else. On international hunts it is near impossible to bring game meat home. The meat is utilized at the place of the hunt. I believe most local deer hunters do not know this because in shareing my pictures of my first international hunt I was asked these questions. I do not think any of them left identifying as trophy hunters or to book an international hunt.

But they accepted it as hunting being free range with meat utilized. Ultimately, 48 to 52 percent of the voting populace has to see us a a net benefit to game and environment. If we are perceived as self indulgent and a net loss on game we lose. That is the why I am so stuck on free range ethical hunting and educating hunters and non hunters what that is.

We cannot disengage from social media. In fact the collective organized went must extend our presence in non traditional outdoor media. Otherwise, we are lost. Hunters are in the tent more or less.

I have given my ideas for reaching that 6 grader, highschool student, and college student. You f a or person at DSC has a better idea then do it. But it has to be an everyday bombardment or our message.
Someone suggested that the NRA send out a fact flyer with citations with American Hunter magazine send outs. This would arm members with peered review facts, hard numbers. Great idea. I suggested mailing them in mass to semi large cities in blue color states as that is what the antis do.

To my knowledge no follow through.

I accept Mr.CH as a hunter. But time has come to be part of the solution. I see no use in his the world is doomed post. This is the golbal hunting community offer make suggestions, debate their merits, maybe someone more powerful than me will act on them.
Start a thread about how to display game pics respectfully, teach young hunters respect for a life taken and not to act like what they see on outdoor media. I am sure your local 4h group would love such a program. Mine did. Yes I did and I did not make any apologies for calling out bad behavior of popular hunters.

Mr. Horse your post do not move the ball foward. Your post ask us to hide in the shadows and hope no one sees us. I take strong issue with that. Your reply to me was beyond civil. I am sure as a hunter for as long as you have you touch many lives positively with hunting. We need to share those experiences here and now. The machine of the NRA, DSC, Rocky Mountain Elk, whoever has to get our experiences and science out in the ethos. The message must be presented beyond the base. I full truth.

Why not run an add camping showing a bull elk being eaten alive by wolves I just saw that image on NAT Geo last weekend, cut to a hunter making a clean kill, and then cutting to his family eating diner off that elk.

quote:

I plan to continue hunting as long as my body and eyesight hold out

That is the spirit. I am 55 and now have to work out a little to be able to keep up with the youngsters. However have had to think seriously about how many years I have left in the business. But still dead keen and very positive in all that is hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

I plan to continue hunting as long as my body and eyesight hold out

That is the spirit. I am 55 and now have to work out a little to be able to keep up with the youngsters. However have had to think seriously about how many years I have left in the business. But still dead keen and very positive in all that is hunting.

I am 52 and know the feeling. But I too will keep going as long as I breathe air.

quote:

Mr. Horse your post do not move the ball foward. Your post ask us to hide in the shadows and hope no one sees us. I take strong issue with that. Your reply to me was beyond civil. I am sure as a hunter for as long as you have you touch many lives positively with hunting. We need to share those experiences here and now. The machine of the NRA, DSC, Rocky Mountain Elk, whoever has to get our experiences and science out in the ethos. The message must be presented beyond the base. I full truth.

I am not asking or suggesting that anyone hide anything, go right ahead with the Aggressive/In-Your-Face methods and see what the Public response turns out to be!

I live in an area where hunting and fishing is still an accepted method. I taught Hunters Ed here in Texas for 8 years or so back in the 90's.

All I have ever seen aggressive - In your face confrontations, is a complete shutdown on the part of the person being preached at.

The real Anti-Hunters do not listen to anything hunters say in the first place.

The Non-Hunters that really do not have a problem with people hunting, do not appreciate the "In Your Face-Ted Nugent" method of trying to influence people.

Due to the changes that have taken place within our society concerning attitudes toward hunting, it has HUNTERS, questioning the whole "Trophy Hunting" concept.

How is a hunter that has never wanted to hunt Elephants/Rhinos/Lions or Leopards, supposed to respond to another person or hunter that openly comments that " I Live To Hunt, But See No Reason To Hunt Elephants"?

I have no problem with you or anyone else wanting to shoot an elephant or lion, and I am not going to lie to anyone, I see no sense in it in today's World and honestly believe that between the internal problems the various African countries are having, and the pressure that the anti-hunting movement is bringing to bear on the issue coupled with declining populations of these species, it is only a matter of time, Enjoy it while you can, but do not expect to "Bully" anyone, including fellow hunters to believe or react as you do.

As others have pointed out in these type conversations, drawing lines of division within a group of individuals that have a verifiable history of NOT being capable of presenting a united front, is only going to hasten inevitable.

I openly tell people that I hunt, have for right at 50 years and make no apologies to anyone and have NO TROUBLE explaining to anyone willing to listen, how I feel about hunting and the benefits hunters provide in helping manage wildlife populations!

One point that some folks so overwrought about this topic completely MISS, deals with the concept of "Having SOMEONE That Is WILLING TOO LISTEN"!

Anti Hunters are not going to listen, they have taken their stance and it will not change.

Non-Hunters can/will and do listen and ask questions, and can be reasoned with, To A Point. Seeing someone grinning from ear to ear standing next to a DEAD ELEPHANT, simply does not set while with a lot of people, including hunters.

Many Non-Hunters really can and do understand deer hunting and hunting upland birds and waterfowl. I have fed a lot of folks a lot of game meat that have No Problem what so ever with deer hunting or elk hunting, but because of all the "Basic" propaganda that the various outlets have put forth over the past 30 to almost 40 years, Elephants/Rhinos/Lions/Leopards/Polar Bears et al, are viewed completely differently.

The main concept is for Hunters to have a Positive Effect and salvage/save/insure hunting for the generations following us, is to LEARN TO WORK TOGETHER, and NOT create lines of division that may NEVER be healed.

Mr. Horse: I do not agree with your emphasis. It does not cause harm for hunters to be proud of hunting and demonstrate that to the masses. I will never convince you otherwise. You will never convince me otherwise.

People do not understand "trophy hunting" because they have been thought on a massive messaging campaign that it is wrong. I have never been elephant hunting, but when I speak about it to meat hunters deer hunters as you identified. Yes, they can understand elephant hunting. Ask them how deer or pigs effect there corn crop, then ask them how they would feel if that deer was 6 tons. I beat most of them will understand. My take away hunting is hunting from these encounters.

Respectfully and how I should have approached you from the beginning. Instead of all your post on this larger issue being boys the good times are over. It was fun while it last. I ask you with an open mind to make suggestions we can all use to fight those that this post was about. Big suggestions or small suggestions are welcome.

I have shared mine, please share yours. If you do not wish to, I have to respect that. There is a great articulation of the Hunter posted Mr. Carter from a man who knew the Gentleman this thread is about. We should all read it and write it on the inside.

Teachers, if you can at all add one of our mentors of youth to your class reading list. I know Mr. Cal use to before retirement.

quote:

Mr. Horse: I do not agree with your emphasis. It does not cause harm for hunters to be proud of hunting and demonstrate that to the masses. I will never convince you otherwise. You will never convince me otherwise.

What makes YOU an EXPERT on whether or not I or ANYONE else is PROUD to be a Hunter, simply because that person may not believe your way of delivering a message is the BEST way???

I am not trying to convince you or anyone else of ANYTHING, other than the FACT that hunters attacking each other will not help any of us in the long run!

Everyone that has ever met me knows I am a hunter and not ashamed of it, and have had the great pleasure and privilege to help a good many folks started on the Hunting Path and helped several make their First kills on Dove/Waterfowl/Feral Hogs/Deer and Javelina and hope I am able to do the same for more before I can no longer hunt.

quote:

Instead of all your post on this larger issue being boys the good times are over. It was fun while it last. I ask you with an open mind to make suggestions we can all use to fight those that this post was about. Big suggestions or small suggestions are welcome.

I have been making suggestions, you simply do not want to understand them!

Try these on for size.

1. Continued infighting among hunters only creates animosity and weakens our Public Image. How can ANYONE take hunters seriously in conversations concerning the Future of hunting, if all we seem to be able to do is point fingers at each other and make accusations about others we have never/probably will never meet?

2. No hunter should hide or be ashamed of the activity they love and live to do, but ALL hunters should be able to comprehend that some "Outlets", FaceBook being one, are openly hostile toward hunters at this point in time, and I do not believe that I am WRONG in believing that it will only get worse.

3. There is No Fight, the enemy is too strong, has actual political backing, the financial where withal to deliver their message thru multiple venues, bases their attack on purely emotional concepts, no actual science involved, and they have been perfecting their methods for 3 or 4 decades.

How can a Group(????) of people who only have one actual concept in common, The Love Of Hunting, but can not reasonably discuss the subject WITHOUT attacking each other over differences in personal beliefs concerning that one common denominator, remotely expect to face down a force that has a game plan that they have been perfecting for years?

When someone questions me about hunting or why I enjoy it I first assess whether they are being honest or simply trying to draw me into an argument.

Arguing with an anti-hunter accomplishes NOTHING because their opinions are set in stone. All arguing with one does is make the hunter look bad, because rarely will the anti be alone, they travel in packs and are well schooled in the tactics the have developed and use.

When Hunters, as a GROUP, learn to ACCEPT the FACT that not all hunters operate exactly the same when enjoying their time in the field, there MIGHT be some hope of keeping hunting as a viable past time.

As long as hunters can not rationally/reasonably discuss a topic as simple as who is a REAL Hunter and who Isn't over basically minutiae, we can not hope to change the future.

One other thought, for whatever it is worth, not EVERYONE that does not hunt is an anti-hunter!

It gets too easy to lump people into groups that they do not belong to or support. There are many Americans that do not hunt, but have no problem with those that do.

One aspect however that many of them have in common, and I observed this FirstHand during my time as a Zoo Keeper, the one concept that does get negative reactions/comments is when it comes to equating the animals we hunt are relegated to nothing more than a trophy and the photos/videos that are shown amount to nothing more than an "End Zone" celebration with little or NO respect shown for the animal killed or the measure of responsibility we shouldered ourselves with when making the choice to kill that animal.


If we HONESTLY want to work at saving hunting of ANY KIND for the future, I feel some concepts need to be considered.

1. We are going to be "playing catch up", the Anti's have to big of a head start.

2. Realize trying to openly debate with anti's os USELESS, they work on nothing but PURE emotion, and that is how they spread their agenda.

3. Concentrate on cleaning up the PUBLIC image that has been being displayed all too often during the past few years on the hunting programs that are available on the media.

4. This will be the most difficult, and probably the one that will in the end, kill the very thing we want to save. Hunters have to stop attacking each other over the way they hunt/how they believe hunting should be conducted and all the other little PERSONAL HANGUPS that divider us.

Until or unless hunters can learn to accept the idea that ALL of us that want to see hunting remain viable into the 22nd. century, simply have to set our Personal Attitudes and PREJUDICES toward each other aside and work together, hunting will be lost.

I fail to see the allure of Facebook, and never have. My businesses don't use it, I don't use it, and see no value in it. I can see clearly that cowards who use it to hide behind keyboards though.

Lora and I both have FaceBook accounts and use them to keep up with family and friends on a more regular basis than phoning them and also to make contact with individuals in specialized/special interest groups.

I rarely post anything involving hunting, but when I do it is normally a reasonably non-offensive picture of dead pigs, people seem to not take as much exception to dead pigs or game birds as they do other species and not having a person grinning like a possum, giving a "Thumbs Up", in the picture seems to help.

But from what I have observed since getting involved with the internet, unless a person is on a site like AR or similar, posting a picture of a dead critter with a grinning hunter in it, ESPECIALLY critters such as Elephants/Rhinos/Lions etc. etc. is only asking for a shit storm.

Having a generation of hunters that grew up(?) without really learning that there is a level of responsibility and respect for the animals we make the decision to kill has not helped things.

Just an opinion, nothing more, but when hunting began moving from a natural, fairly well accepted part of being a human into the realm of competition among some of the participants with scores being kept and prizes given, that had a negative effect on many folks, including hunters.

I posted on the nutter's Facebook page that we should enact universal suffrage for all mamalia, including rats and declaring the killing of any animal the crime of murder. Those same idiots actually liked my post. They would give rats THE VOTE!!

quote:

The main concept is for Hunters to have a Positive Effect and salvage/save/insure hunting for the generations following us, is to LEARN TO WORK TOGETHER, and NOT create lines of division that may NEVER be healed.

Hypocrit! You're the one who won't "work together" by joining the NRA to help support our cause. I hope people consider your stance and don't hunt with you, because you are not a friend of hunting future.

I will not condemn or require CrazyHorse to belong to any particular political or lobbying group.

My issue with him is that he said in his rebuttal to me that there is no fight to be had. That we cannot win. I am not as old of as him, but he is waving the white flag on my hunting future. I take that personally, I take issue with that. See Mr. Horse's reply to me at his point 3.

I never asked him to engage in social media. I did imply he should post a hunt report. His choice. But as individuals we should all be working in our communities volunteering for hunting causes at least. We should be using any means we have to get those centralized groups who speak for us to engage multi media where those who do not already think as we do can hear the truth. For heaven sakes help with a hunters education course if nothing else.

Yes, I will call out people who set up golf course shooting ranges with fire stations set up at 600 plus that use side by sides to shoot from 600 yards with overwhelming amount of game feeders and snipe pigs. Then look into the camera and act like an idiot using disrespectful language for the life taken. I am not sorry that upsets Mr. CrazyHorse. Just like I would caution hunters not to act like what is seen on some maybe a lot of hunting and gun YouTube. But supporter anyone who does it right. Yeah there is a right and erong way to do things. Sorry, that is true.

Yes, I will continue to call anyone at the NRA demanding these great commercials go beyond outdoor tv.
I would donate to DSC or anybody else to host outfitters and biologist to speak at high schools or college campuses.

Yes, I will show my game respectfully. Address any crazy with respect, and hope one neutral or fence seter sees it.

Yes, I will call out those who wave the white flag. I will endeavor to do so respectfully.

Yes, I will continue to call the NRA and my NRA state rep to send out those flyers so members are armed with hard number, facts, and citations.

I think some of our outfitters who are may not otherwise would donate auction hunts if X amount of proceeded where used to commission real peer reviewed, science based, study on name the animal or the effects of safari hunting.

I have apologized on this forum whenever I felt my language was disrespectful or inappropriate or could be misread. I make no apologies here.

LHeym500,

Keep up the fight.

It is easy to get frustrated when you see what is happening to sport hunting and instead of hearing and seeing new ways employed to fight the fight you instead (i) see a hunting community that is largely inert, (ii) see many members of the hunting community that have given up and adopted the “it was good while it lasted” attitude, (iii) see the organizations ostensibly responsible for hunting issues as largely defensive in orientation or in some cases pursuing agendas . . . like trophy awards . . . that actually are detrimental to the sport, (iv) see hunters engaged in ethically questionable activities and the response of many of other hunters is simply c’est la vie, (v) see the approaches being taken to engage the public in a positive manner on hunting as being archaic and outdated, largely based on “preaching to the choir” instead of proselytizing, (vi) see hunters preferring to circle the wagons as opposed to having honest and candid conversations about issues and defending the former on the basis of we must stand united . . . .

Rest assured there are many other hunters out there that appreciate the need for new ideas and new approaches and have no intention of giving up the fight. It starts with us learning to fight smarter and getting our own house in order.

L Heym, what leads you to believe I am upset with you or waving a White Flag???????

I am merely expressing my opinion on the state of things from what I have experienced, are you doing anything different than that?

I post hunting reports on this site as do many others, and just like many others get called to task because "I Did Not Hunt By Their RULES"!

I willingly and gladly talk about hunting/my feelings toward hunting/the importance of hunting as a hereditary part of being a human and the role hunting plays in the conservation of wildlife, WHEN I encounter a listener/audience that is Open Minded and WILLING to Listen and Discuss the subject.

I post hunting pictures on FaceBook, but ones I am pretty confident that will not offend most people! That merely shows respect for the animals that were killed and courtesy along with respect for those viewing the pictures.

Just because I am not interested in a Nugent Style In-Your-Face confrontation everytime I turn around that does not mean that I do not support hunting.

The point you are missing is clearly displayed in the comments that had so far been made by those responding to the OP, everyone is taking sides and anyone they disagree with for whatever reason has MENTALLY became more of an enemy, than the most rabid anti-hunters on the PLANET!

Hunters MUST set aside their PETTY differences, before trying to make a stand against those wanting to end our ability to continue doing an activity we were born to do. Humans evolved as a HUNTING species.

Unless or Until HUNTERS stop creating lines of division over PERSONAL differences of opinion, We CANNOT/WILL NOT EVER be able to provide a United front to save hunting.

It is a real pity that so many people that share a common interest/passion for an activity, that was "Hard Wired" into humans since God created us, can not focus their anger/concerns to combat those working to take our ability to engage in that activity away from us, yet have No Trouble what so ever ATTACKING the very people that also want to keep from losing the ability to hunt.

I will continue to hunt, I will continue to support hunting as long as I live, it is a pity that is not good enough for some individuals!

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
I fail to see the allure of Facebook, and never have. My businesses don't use it, I don't use it, and see no value in it. I can see clearly that cowards who use it to hide behind keyboards though.

1.9 bil users for Facebook
1.2 bil users for Whatsapp
700 mil users for instragram

Market cap $430 bil.

Every hunting celebrity is on it - schokey etc

Every booking agent is on it

My suggested friends are probably all ar members wih pictures of dead animals besides them.

Facebook by country https://www.statista.com/stati...r-of-facebook-users/

Us 2 out of 3 are Facebook. Adjust for age and access to internet - 80 percent plus on facebook. That is massive power over social and political issues.

Mike

Folks, this "Discussion" has traveled the exact same path everyone on this topic has traveled, and proves exactly WHY hunters cannot, will not ever be able to provide a UNITED FRONT to contest those working 24 hours a day to take hunting away from those of us that were born and have lived as hunters, for DECADES!

We argue about who is and who is not a REAL HUNTER, based on PERSONAL BELIEFS/PREJUDICES, and we do not even ATTEMPT to find common ground!

Out of 65 comments on this subject, only 27 people have made the effort to get involved. What does that actually say about the feelings of the membership of Accurate Reloading when out of several thousand members that supposedly ARE hunters, only 27 people are willing to get involved, and some of them for only ONE comment!!!!!!

If a person will also take the time to review the responses made, PLEASE notice how many have been accusing another responder of NOT really caring about the Future of Hunting!

Unless or Until HUNTERS can put aside PERSONAL DIFFERENCES, we will not save hunting!

Take this one comment from a member: When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere.

Now, should US based Guides/Outfitters, check and see if potential clients are NRA Members and if not, Do Not Book Them?????????

Hunting is going to be lost to the Average citizen in America! Hunting in America is going to end up with the exact same system as practiced in the UK and Europe!

I hate the thought of that happening, but I cannot see any other course.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
[

3. There is No Fight, the enemy is too strong, has actual political backing, the financial where withal to deliver their message thru multiple venues, bases their attack on purely emotional concepts, no actual science involved, and they have been perfecting their methods for 3 or 4 decades.

Mr. Horse, I return to this discussion only to answer your post in reply to me as respectfully as I can. At this point I normallywould not, but I feel it would be rude to ignore you.

The above cited quote from you and others like it is why I say you post defeatism. You are waving the white flag on my future hunting. I do not agree with everything Beretta686 post, but look at his numbers about Facebook. If he is not right, he might as well be. That is 1.9 billion users that could be exposed to the hunting conservation message. Many in that group are abandoning traditional media all together. ESPN is hemorrhageing viewers, and pulling down Disney's stock. Young people cancelling cable all together for Internet, social media outlets.Others are simply tired of their uber left push.

The fields are ripe. Respectfully, there is a fight to be had, and that is the new battle ground.Yeah I bought a Heym, but there Facebook page has done well to present the facts. Only by us joining and sharing will it be seen. I often address hunting issues when they are presented on my wife's Facebook page. I have seen good dialogs.

A local idiot, posted Eric Trump with his leopard as an attack during the campaign. He act d like a nut, but those who followed had me to rebut him. Yes Sir, by the responses. I won that one.

The bigger powers that be should be engaging this market as an offensive weapon. Your position will see us finally beaten.

I am not attacking you as a Hunter, but as an advocate. Today we need hunter advocates. If you do not wish to engage. I am ok with that. But please, stop posting how we should not or cannot fight.

Some of us in the media section of this forum have shared some good content on YouTube that gets more views for more bang for the buck then Madow on MSNBC gets with traditional cooperate media behind her. Go check it out sometime.

Why do you feel it is important to attack a fellow hunter, just because they have a different opinion and view of the situation????

Can you answer that? Will you answer that?

What is it about a fellow hunter not buying into your ideas that is so wrong?

Why is it that as a group, hunters find reasons to disparage other hunters for simply hunting under LEGALLY established Rules and Regulations?

I have no problem with you or ANYONE else hunting the way they choose as long at it is a LEGALLY accepted method! Can YOU say that?

What is your opinion of Hunting Ethics? Should everyone hunt according to some other hunters Personal Code of Conduct? Or can they not establish their own Personal code of Ethics as long as their methods stay within the confines of Legally established Rules/Regulations?

I honestly do appreciate your desire to do everything you can to confront those that want to end hunting, realistically I do not see hunters ever being able to set aside their personal beliefs, and in the case of sites like this, prejudices toward others!

I'll wade into this mine field.

I don't belong or follow facebook or any other social media. I advocate hunting or shooting face to face when the subject arises. When attacked by antis, I tell them that I an willing to have a rational discussion with them, they rarely calm down. I've been fairly effective one on one presenting our side of the story. They see me as a normal person instead of the often portrayed hunter type.

Dave

quote:

I don't belong or follow facebook or any other social media. I advocate hunting or shooting face to face when the subject arises. When attacked by antis, I tell them that I an willing to have a rational discussion with them, they rarely calm down. I've been fairly effective one on one presenting our side of the story. They see me as a normal person instead of the often portrayed hunter type.

Other than the fact that I do participate on FaceBook, the rest of your comments parallel my own and a few others I know approach.

I simply do not agree and never have agreed with the "Nugent" method of trying to get my point across in Face To Face interactions. I have never seen such actions work, especially with a subject like Hunting.

All anyone has to do is watch how discussions on this site turn into , over subjects such as this one.

Hunters simply can not concentrate on the aspects of hunting and the passion they have for hunting, and focus on those. Instead they purposely find the differences and attack each other.

Getting hunters to understand that the TRUE ANTI'S have one goal and one goal only and that is to stop ALL hunting, and they have been indoctrinating their faithful for decades.

I pray that hunting as a viable activity for the average person, that enjoy it/live to hunt, lasts long after I am dead and gone, but I simply feel that it will end up being an activity that only the rich or privileged will be able to participate in.

I have been able to witness First Hand the changes, strictly thru economic influences, people being forced out of hunting.

I have been able to witness First Hand the changes thru the movement of people from Rural areas for whatever reason, including Urban Sprawl near the larger Metropolitan areas, which reduced or eliminated wildlife habitat and created safety concerns that eliminated hunting .

Yes, the Anti's are a problem, but they are a problem that like any other cancer is growing.

Throw in Hunters inability to set aside their personal prejudices toward each other and that does not present a real ROSY outlook for the future of hunting.

quote:

Take this one comment from a member: When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere.

Now, should US based Guides/Outfitters, check and see if potential clients are NRA Members and if not, Do Not Book Them?????????

The answer is:

It wouldn't be a bad idea, but they are trying to sell something, so the personal beliefs of a potential client (within reason, of course) should not be a part of the SELLING, BUT IT SHOULD BE A BIG PART OF THE BUYING.

Don't book with US hunting providers who are not NRA members. The NRA is, by far, the major organization supporting our efforts to keep and bear arms AND our right to hunt. In numbers there is strength as far as Congress and elected officials at every level are concerned. Adding to the number of members in the NRA is the most obvious and easiest way to begin to support our rights, both of RBA and hunting and it is both stupid and shameful that so few hunters are members.

If someone is making money off an activity which is completely dependent on one of the two above activities and IS NOT a member of the NRA, then they are either too stupid or too cheap to spend the $40 to show they are UNITED with other gun owners and hunters in their support of our rights. I'm not sure which category CHC falls in, possibly both.

If someone won’t or can't understand this and send the NRA a lousy $40 bucks, they are exacerbating the problem.

If by not being a NRA member, you are part of the problem, why should people who support our rights support your operation by paying any money?

In short, don't hunt with CHC or anyone else in the US who is not willing to stand with us by joining the NRA. If you're not with us, you're against us.

And there we have a real Classy example of why Hunters cannot stand up against the forces wanting to end hunting.

80 plus million gun owners in America, only about 5 million NRA members, and Gato has a SERIOUS problem because a Guide isn't an NRA member.

Gato does not have a problem with Guides/Outfitters/Booking agents, doing business with hunters that aren't NRA members, Because THEY are trying to sell something.

Yes Sir I can see a real bright future for hunting as long as people like Gato think the way they do.

Somehow I guess I did not comprehend that buying hunting licenses annually, spending money for guns and ammunition and hunting trips, does not support hunting or gun ownership, learn something new everyday.

And there we have a real classy example of why someone who collects money from hunters doesn't support the main organization supporting them and us. I would suggest finding a guide who does.

quote:

And there we have a real Classy example of why Hunters cannot stand up against the forces wanting to end hunting.

Exactly, because of stupid and cheap clowns like you who don't understand the power of numbers.

quote:

Somehow I guess I did not comprehend that buying hunting licenses annually, spending money for guns and ammunition and hunting trips, does not support hunting or gun ownership, learn something new everyday.

In your case, that is a highly doubtful statement.

Gato, I have belonged to the NRA/Texas State Rifle Association/Ducks Unlimited/Trout Unlimited and for the past 3 years or so RMEF, I simply feel like RMEF is a better place to spend my money.

Over the time I have been guiding hunters and have been on Guided Hunts where I was the client, No One has EVER CARED whether anyone in camp, Guide or Client belonged to the NRA or ANY OTHER organization, this is America and there is still the concept of Freedom Of Choice.

Your opinions about me and what you believe I should be doing are immaterial!

If it will do you some good, petition Saeed and Don to ban non NRA members from the site or at least not allow them to offer hunts or sell anything in the classified sections!

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
And there we have a real classy example of why someone who collects money from hunters doesn't support the main organization supporting them and us. I would suggest finding a guide who does.

quote:

And there we have a real Classy example of why Hunters cannot stand up against the forces wanting to end hunting.

Exactly, because of stupid and cheap clowns like you who don't understand the power of numbers.

quote:

Somehow I guess I did not comprehend that buying hunting licenses annually, spending money for guns and ammunition and hunting trips, does not support hunting or gun ownership, learn something new everyday.

In your case, that is a highly doubtful statement.

I am with you on this debate.

You can be with whoever you want to, it does not/will not change the FACT that as long as hunters can not set aside their PERSONAL PREJUDICES toward OTHER HUNTERS, there is absolutely ZERO chance that hunting can be saved in the long run!

Your opinions about me, are nothing more than that, the opinions of one individual based on NOTHING more than words posted on an internet website.

Now L Heym maybe you can grasp the concept about Hunters being unable/incapable of setting aside, imagined differences because of comments made on internet websites, and the effect it has on preventing Hunters from uniting!

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
You can be with whoever you want to, it does not/will not change the FACT that as long as hunters can not set aside their PERSONAL PREJUDICES toward OTHER HUNTERS, there is absolutely ZERO chance that hunting sane be saved in the long run!

Your opinions about me, are nothing more than that, the opinions of one individual based on NOTHING more than words posted on an internet website.

Now L Heym maybe you can grasp the concept about Hunters being unable/incapable of setting aside, imagined differences because of comments made on internet websites, and the effect it has on preventing Hunters from uniting!

If you're so irritated, have you considered leaving?

Like you did when you left the Crater because people supported Trump?????

If you will notice, I was not the one that moved this discussion off the tracks.

I do not recall at any point Saeed or Don requiring anyone to be a member of ANY particular organization to participate on this site.

Can you point that out to me?

what a distasteful bunch of c--ksuckers these antis are. they are a disgrace to reason and logic and decency

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
You can be with whoever you want to, it does not/will not change the FACT that as long as hunters can not set aside their PERSONAL PREJUDICES toward OTHER HUNTERS, there is absolutely ZERO chance that hunting sane be saved in the long run!

Your opinions about me, are nothing more than that, the opinions of one individual based on NOTHING more than words posted on an internet website.

Now L Heym maybe you can grasp the concept about Hunters being unable/incapable of setting aside, imagined differences because of comments made on internet websites, and the effect it has on preventing Hunters from uniting!

If you're so irritated, have you considered leaving?

That was quite witty.