With Rautenbach listed on the new "Banned List", how will this affect hunting in Zimbabwe? Won't this also affect Chifuti?

Good question. IIRC, doesn't he have the Chewore North and maybe Chewore South concessions?

Perhaps our man on the ground "Ganyana" or others will have more info.

I hope this will be known by the SCI convention this January.

RCG

All Rautenbach has to do is "donate" a few hunts to SCI and they will look the other way!

The issue is not SCI but the US State Department rules on transactions with prohibited persons.

Chifuti have chewore south in their own right. Chewore north??? Have fun with that one. Will ask Amanda Porter at US Embassy in harare how they are interpreting that, because Big Five Safaris is not on the list - and who are the current shareholders in big five anyway?

It is not as if you can wonder down to the registra of companies and get such information any more- all company ownership is now "classified".

Ganyana:

Thanks for the comments. Look forward to any more information that becomes available.

RCG

Charles, you are absolutely right. What has SCI have to do with the situation, just an excuse for some (above) to slam SCI I guess?

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:
The issue is not SCI but the US State Department rules on transactions with prohibited persons.

I would imagine this means Chewore North and most of Nunetsi are no go areas for US citizens.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
Charles, you are absolutely right. What has SCI have to do with the situation, just an excuse for some (above) to slam SCI I guess?

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

Larry,

I am a Life Member of SCI too.

SCI has shown that as far as "ethics" are concerned they no balls to face the culprits.

I have not found a SINGLE PH in Africa who likes what SCI does to them to get a stall at the convention.

In fact, the usual term applied to SCI is "run like a third world country".

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

SCI has shown that as far as "ethics" are concerned they no balls to face the culprits.

I have not found a SINGLE PH in Africa who likes what SCI does to them to get a stall at the convention.

In fact, the usual term applied to SCI is "run like a third world country".

Never has a truer word been spoken!

I'm actually suprised the way they run the convention isn't illegal. - It certainly should be, because it's not far short of blackmail to sell a service at an agreed price and then ask for a donation to get a good spot.

Well, I only wish this third world country was run like SCI.
And, in my humble opinion, SCI has done more for hunting than any other organization that ever was.

Dave

Well said Dave. It seems some think it is unetheical for SCI to raise money?? If they didn't make money, a lot of money, then it would be impossible for them to accomplish the things they have done for all us hunters period. The booth price and donation is the cost of "doing business" at the SCI Convention. If you don't want to pay then simply don't play, as nobody is forcing people to exhibit. Sure their prices for space has gone up, but show me what hasn't. As long as they continue fight the fight Worldwide they will continue to have my support hands down.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:
Well, I only wish this third world country was run like SCI.
And, in my humble opinion, SCI has done more for hunting than any other organization that ever was.

Dave

Larry,

Without wanting or meaning to start a barney.

If they do so much for hunters worldwide, where were they when the UK hunters and shooters had their handguns taken away? where were they when the UK hunters were faced with the restriction on semi-autos? where were they when the SA Government foisted and unworkable and unreasonable new firearms act on the people? - I'll tell you where they were, they were tucked up nice and cosy in that bad taste palace of self aggrandisment that must swallow money like it's going out of fashion that they call an HQ.

In almost 30 years of kicking around Africa, and despite all their claims, I've never seen a sigle sign of SCI doing anything for anyone, anywhere. - All I've seen them do is give each other slaps on the back, shiny awards and admittance into bizarre BS inner and outer circles etc. - I've never seen them do anything for hunters outside the USA or for anyone else whether they be black, white, pink or purple anywhere in Africa. - Maybe they do achieve something for these people, but if they do, I've never seen any sign of it.

One thing I do agree with you about is paying and playing. I won't play that game and I won't pay the blackmail fees they demand........ so I choose not to attend and fortunately I don't have to.

I don't have a problem with them raising money if it's given freely and willingly, but I do have a problem with the way they extort it and I have a bigger problem with what they do with it........ or more to the point, what they don't do with it.

Let's for a moment pause to do some maths and some thinking. I have no idea how many hunt 'donations' they get from the convention, but I'm sure it must be in the hundreds at the very least. Let's be very conservative and say 300 hunts and each worth an average of US$15000. Even at those very low figures that works out at US$4,500,000 taken out of the industry every single year. Add on the fact that those people who buy the hunts at knock down prices would probably have bought them from direct from the outfitter and are consequently lost to the industry and you can double that figure to US$9M. If we weren't being very conservative, the figures would probably be considerably higher. - Firstly, how can any industry survive being long term milked in that fashion year after year and secondly, why should they have to accept that? - And thirdly, why is it so difficult to find out the true facts and figures and what 'good works' they do with all that money?

I think one problem with SCI is that soooo many people actually believe their publicity BS.

SCI used to have a great man to push their programmes in Africa - one Andre De Georges. Unfortunately, Andre belived in the people, conservation, and eithics. Consiquently he ended up as a lecturer at Pretoria university before retiring back to the USA.

His politics may have been WAY too liberal for me, but he tried to do what was right for hunting and conservation - and so fell foul of the powers that be.

At SCI this year Kevin "doctari" Robertsons critique on buffalo came up. The various african Hunting associations were called in and read the riot act- we didn't know anything about buffalo...

On the possitive side, there is some new blood creaping into SCI who are trying to do what is right.

Would some please enlight me to the following:

I understand that Dallas safari Club have their convention, where exhibitors can buy booth space and be present.
No black mail like having to "donate" anything, or one gets the space no one wants.

They are also open for any member of the public to pay the daily fee and enter.

They do not have to buy membership in DSC.

Compare ths to SCI.

One has to buy an annual membership to be able to buy tickets to enter the show.

Exhibitors have to "donate" something, or pay an additions $600, if they want the space they ask for.

Otyherwise they get some place no one wants.

I also understand that SCI has been taking these "donations" fo tax purposes, and I think I heard that the IRS is questioning this.

The above is my understanding, if anyone would care to clarify it for me I would appreciate it.

All hunting in Chewore North will now be banned - except for me. Yippee.

Two years ago at the Eastern Sports Show in Harrisburg, Pa. there was a African hunting company selling safaris from Zim... The PH there was showing the areas, confiscated land and farms taken from white residents and some of those people were also in attendance and there was some loud yelling and fights broke out...
Ethics may be out the window to make a buck...
Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Would some please enlight me to the following:

I understand that Dallas safari Club have their convention, where exhibitors can buy booth space and be present.
No black mail like having to "donate" anything, or one gets the space no one wants.

They are also open for any member of the public to pay the daily fee and enter.

They do not have to buy membership in DSC.

Compare ths to SCI.

One has to buy an annual membership to be able to buy tickets to enter the show.

Exhibitors have to "donate" something, or pay an additions $600, if they want the space they ask for.

Otyherwise they get some place no one wants.

I also understand that SCI has been taking these "donations" fo tax purposes, and I think I heard that the IRS is questioning this.

The above is my understanding, if anyone would care to clarify it for me I would appreciate it.

I can't speak to the IRS part, but I can say this. I stopped going to SCI Convention and started to attend the Dallas show simply becasue the SCI show cost a few thousand dollars more for me and my girlfriend to attend. Whereas we can see most of the same outfitters for 1/5 the total price considering memberships, tickets, hotels and airfare. I would rather put the extra couple of grand into dailys or trophy fees.

How do you spend a "few thousand on Reno" more than Dallas?

The only savings I can figure is about $100 less in airfare,and $200 in admission.

Hotel fees and foods about the same by my phone calls(?)

I won't be able to do either also using the money for hopefully some kind of hunt next year....

But,back to topic....

How does one associate the banned list to a paticular area or outfitter?

Would anyone actually give a strait answer as an outfitter or agent?

Even if asked or shown a list how as a hunter would you ever know?

Dan

I think SCI charges $80 per day, DSC charges $15 per day.

Hotels might cost more at SCI - are they taking a cut from this too!?

I have not been to any of the conventions, but my understanding is that at DSC you have a feeling of being welcomed.
At SCI the feeling is that you are being fleeced!

This is from people who have attended both.

Some say they HAVE to attend SCI because they are in the hunting industry, If they had a choice they would give SCI a very wide birth.

4 day at SCI $260 4 day at Dallas $60...

Hotels $80 to $120 on average both places..

I have not been to Dallas only Reno...

If it wasn't for the auction prices at Reno,I could not afford overseas hunting...

The evening black tie hunts sell for full or more value...

North american hunts about 70-85% of value

African hunts 20-40% of face value...European about the same...

I've more than paid for the expense, and have had terrific experiences with the outfitters I have purchased from....

I would like to try Dallas,maybe next year...


Dan

Quite frankly I'm confused. Shakari says SCI hasn't done squat for hunting in Africa for 30 years and Mr. Hulme says if it weren't for SCI things would be in the toilet.

I will make my first Reno convention this year and am looking forward to the spectacle of it all. From what I get from those who have been previously, bargains on hunts are few and far between, if non-exsistent. I hope to make contacts with lots of folks "mano y mano" rather than the internet and just plain enjoy myself. Maybe I'll get lucky on booking, but that isn't my purpose for going.

However, SCI had been perceived through the years as a rich boys glee club and held with some suspicion by other conservation organizations. My own local chapter seems fairly closed to roll up your sleeves and get to work kind of conservation efforts, my own opinion of course. However, I think SCI membership rolls are a good deal higher than the RMEF so they must do something right. It seems to me that it wasn't until SCI membership began to really take off that the NRA decided to be an advocate of hunting, not just 2nd amendment causes. Could be they perceived a threat to membership numbers?

Question? If SCI needs changing, then what are some of you gentelmen's suggestions. Where to start and what nut to crack? I'd be willing to try to help change things for the better, if that need is truly there.

I'll add that (IMO) their ethics are quite simply appalling. There's one company that has a looooong string of complaints against them and regularly get up to all kinds of shenanigans and yet because this company makes a lot of very expensive donations to SCI, their (laghably named) ethics committee persists in finding them not guilty time after time and still lets them have booth space at the convention.

This thread sure got hijacked. First by Saeed then continued by others.

Perhaps we can get back to the original posters question and those interested can start another "Let's bash the shit out of SCI" thread.

quote:

Originally posted by woodmanDan:
How do you spend a "few thousand on Reno" more than Dallas?

The only savings I can figure is about $100 less in airfare,and $200 in admission.

Hotel fees and foods about the same by my phone calls(?)

I won't be able to do either also using the money for hopefully some kind of hunt next year....

But,back to topic....

How does one associate the banned list to a paticular area or outfitter?

Would anyone actually give a strait answer as an outfitter or agent?

Even if asked or shown a list how as a hunter would you ever know?

Dan

Dan,
Thanks for calling me on this. I may be slightly off, but from where we live, the airfare from Durango to Reno was about $700 each. This was in 2005. The airfare to Dallas from Albuquerque, I actually drive down there to catch a flight to dallas is about $200 per person. Dallas safari show is $60 total for us for 2 days while SCI was about $400 with memberships for both of us. Seems we spent more with hotels, but I cant remember that for sure. When it was all said and done, it seemed like it cost me between $1500 and $2000 more for SCI in Reno than the Dallas show. Sorry for throwing out such a big number to start off with. Regardless of money, Dallas did seem much friendlier than SCI. I thought it was interesting that Saeed had heard the same thing as I had felt that way but not felt the need to mention it. Anyways, sorry for adding to the thread Hijacking. Happy Thanksgiving!

The folks involved are Meredith Bros (Swainsons), Chifuti (Andy etc.) and Rautenbach. The concessions are Dande N, Dande S, Chewore N and S. In other words, most of the good hunting in the lower Zambezi Valley. Chifuti operates the concessions. In other words, if you want to hunt there, Chifuti is the outfit you deal with. The leases are to Chifuti except Dande N which is to Swainsons (and this lease expires this year I think so there will be a new auction). I think Rautenbach keeps part of Dande S for his personal use. Not sure about the arrangement there. Given the large sums of money involved in these concessions, someone with a big bankroll is needed. That is where Rautenbach comes in. It's my understanding that he has LOANED Chifuti a substantial amount of money in order to secure Chewore N.

So the question boils down to whether a company who has borrowed money from Rautenbach, is blacklisted.

I think the prudent thing to do is to ask Chifuti to provide you with a letter stating that Rautenbach has no financial interest in their company or any concession that you plan to hunt. You would be sticking your neck out without such a letter.

quote:

Originally posted by robncolorado:

quote:

Originally posted by woodmanDan:
How do you spend a "few thousand on Reno" more than Dallas?

The only savings I can figure is about $100 less in airfare,and $200 in admission.

Hotel fees and foods about the same by my phone calls(?)

I won't be able to do either also using the money for hopefully some kind of hunt next year....

But,back to topic....

How does one associate the banned list to a paticular area or outfitter?

Would anyone actually give a strait answer as an outfitter or agent?

Even if asked or shown a list how as a hunter would you ever know?

Dan

Dan,
Thanks for calling me on this. I may be slightly off, but from where we live, the airfare from Durango to Reno was about $700 each. This was in 2005. The airfare to Dallas from Albuquerque, I actually drive down there to catch a flight to dallas is about $200 per person. Dallas safari show is $60 total for us for 2 days while SCI was about $400 with memberships for both of us. Seems we spent more with hotels, but I cant remember that for sure. When it was all said and done, it seemed like it cost me between $1500 and $2000 more for SCI in Reno than the Dallas show. Sorry for throwing out such a big number to start off with. Regardless of money, Dallas did seem much friendlier than SCI. I thought it was interesting that Saeed had heard the same thing as I had felt that way but not felt the need to mention it. Anyways, sorry for adding to the thread Hijacking. Happy Thanksgiving!

And what does Dallas do for assuring worldwide hunting?

Shakari

Wasn't Andre' fired from SCI at the behest of PHASA?

quote:

Originally posted by Gator1:
Shakari

Wasn't Andre' fired from SCI at the behest of PHASA?

I doubt PHASA would have enough clout to get anyone outside their own organisation fired........ but even if they did, I fail to see what that has to do with the issues under discussion, which are the 'donation' scheme and the so called 'ethics committee'........ which might perhaps be more accurately called the 'lack of ethics committee'

quote:

Compare ths to SCI.

One has to buy an annual membership to be able to buy tickets to enter the show.

Exhibitors have to "donate" something, or pay an additions $600, if they want the space they ask for.

Otyherwise they get some place no one wants.

Saeed,

I have had a personal taste of how SCI deals with exhibitors. One applies, stating clearly (with photos if applicable) what it is one is willing to donate to the auctions. Your CC no. goes on the application, as they take a 50% advance toward the booth rental at the time of acceptance. There is a MINIMUM donation specified of $1200 per booth if in kind, and $600 if in cash, if memory serves. Prior exhibitors get preference. New exhibitors have to fight over what's left, if anything. It's not a question of getting the space you want, you are extremely fortunate to get ANY space at all. This year, wanting to set up a double rifles only booth together with Keith Kearcher, I offered them a new FinnClassic 512S Double Rifle in 9.3x74R and an extra set of barrels in 12ga. They never responded. Eventually, I got a hold of Mike Wirth, who administers this process. He told me there was no space available. I think he didn't even bother to enter my application, as once before I applied and was selected and got several latters from SCI. By the time they made their mind up that I was acceptable on that occasion, I had already booked at another venue so I declined. Anyway, this time there was no letter, one way or the other.

I wonder what kind of car Mike Wirth drives? I see his name on some of the safari outfitter mailing lists so I am sure he gets "preferential treatment".

Anyway, the bottom line is that exhibitors are lined up, and the attendance is moneyed and substantial. One of the guys who sells guns there says he has made a living off that one week show and put his daughter through college on the proceeds. Not sure how well the hunting exhibitors do. A lot of the bookings are finalized there, face to face, so it's a convenient meeting place if nothing else. There are a lot of me too hunts on offer. I wouldn't want to be selling plains game hunts there.

I'm new to the forum. Is there a list of banned individuals that I can access via the internet? Where would I go for this information?

Mr. cider, et al.The Hunting Report

http://www.huntingreport.com/temp_zimbabwe_ban_list.cfm

This was just updated....

woodmanDan, thanks, just what I was looking for! Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Cider:
I'm new to the forum. Is there a list of banned individuals that I can access via the internet? Where would I go for this information?

The Office of Foreign Assets Control has the link to the current list of Blocked Persons and Specially-Designated Nationals. They post the updates too.

Don't know abut the Hunting report list. If it is kept current it may be easier to read.

Charles_Helm, thanks, I'm pretty sure I would never have found that one on my own! Jim

My pleasure.

My big question that I posted previously,before the SCI bashing inspired more threads.....

Does anyone actually know,and can coordinate who owns what,and where is it?

Does anyone actually expect an outfitter to admit they are involved with somebody on that list?Even if you asked them?

And,how would you actually know?

Yes,threads like this provide snippits of information....but not everyone knows of this website,and this thread talks of one area....

It seems like that list is a bit of a joke,unless you hand the check to Uncle Bob...

Excuse me Mr. Outfitter...can I have the passport numbers to your associates,to make sure they are not on this list?

Yeah, right...

Dan

It may hurt others that are connected with him but i think its good that Rautenbach has been banned!How is it that white Zinbabweans have been kicked off there land and treated like shit but a south african wanted in his own country shakes hands with Bob and hey presto he is the only white that can buy land? I know of one outfitter that lost there hunting rights to a property to him so he can turn into a bio-fuel plant! how does that help the game?

Dan,

I appreciate it's difficult, but at the end of the day it's where the term due diligence comes in.

I guess a couple of things you could and should do is to ensure you only book with the good operators, (plenty of the good guys post here) and make sure you have something written into your safari contract that stipulates you're not doing business and there will be no payments to anyone on the banned list as published by the US Government.

Can I also point out that in Don Heath and Ganyana, this forum probably has two of the best, honest and reliable information sources possible.

Hope that helps.

Ethics is a very noble idea if you can afford it. I have seen many things over the years that make me pretty skeptical about human nature. The "right" thing becomes very relative depending on whose ox is being gored. This is universal be it SCI, Phs, outfitters, politicians, or clients. Everyone has their own agenda and money is almost always involved.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Larry,



Let's for a moment pause to do some maths and some thinking. I have no idea how many hunt 'donations' they get from the convention, but I'm sure it must be in the hundreds at the very least. Let's be very conservative and say 300 hunts and each worth an average of US$15000. Even at those very low figures that works out at US$4,500,000 taken out of the industry every single year. Add on the fact that those people who buy the hunts at knock down prices would probably have bought them from direct from the outfitter and are consequently lost to the industry and you can double that figure to US$9M. If we weren't being very conservative, the figures would probably be considerably higher. - Firstly, how can any industry survive being long term milked in that fashion year after year and secondly, why should they have to accept that? - And thirdly, why is it so difficult to find out the true facts and figures and what 'good works' they do with all that money?

Think about the following scenario:

get rid of the donation hunt auctions put a reserve price on hunts and evry thing over the reserve price goes to SCI on the other hunts that is sold during the show pay a small agents commision to SCI this will help SCI and the outfitters as they will only pay on hunts sold and every body can break even on the hunts .It will also put more hunts up for Auction as it will be profitable for all parties

(African hunts 20-40% of face value..) i have seen this before is this not a loss for sci and outfitter a partnership can only prosper if everybody benefits from it. I have spoken to guys that have bought a 2 x1 hunt for 5 days with 4 animals for a 1000$ that is 500 each one animal cost the outfitter 500$ not taking the accomadation,feul,food and other animals into consideration.

yes it was a great deal but for the hunting industry to prospor everybody needs to make a living and the better it goes the more everybody incl clients will benefit