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Dear Jerad, I think my ‘good attitude’ reference was more that you were looking at Zambia - your new place to hunt. However for the benefit of doubt I will quote here - good attitude to all those who want to collect. But I am not sure what you are insinuating? Where is it documented that I condemn collectors? Where have I stated in this thread what is right or wrong? I think you are missing the point and you need to read carefully my post again. It is about how SCI has adapted hunting to be that of competition and by doing so (and in my opinion) denies some the pure African experience. It is pointed at SCI and not the hunter as such. As a PH I do not enjoy these hunts, which does not mean that I will not entertain them or indeed put the same 100% effort I put into any other safari. That sir would be unprofessional. Note my last sentence of my initial post offers both sides the option of fair comment. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Andrew, Well now that you're in support of Collecting, we should hunt together!  I will say, having re-read your posts, that I took your "banning from camp" personally (which I don't think I would have done from anyone else, except that had communicated previously about hunting). Having reflected on these post, I'm wondering if you meant it as a joke or sarcasm? If you did, I apologize for taking it the wrong way. I'm sorry, I sometimes have a short fuse. Brett- No worries man, I just wanted to reiterate my disdain for fantasy football, and don't you worry about my time in africa, you won't find anyone who enjoys it more... I even enjoy the plane ride...it's a sickness! Concerning, SCI medal/awards since the beginning of time, competition for biggest/better whatever has existed. Even without SCI's system, this would still occure, maybe not with the me against everyone hunting for the biggest, the fact that SCI has made those competitions public have increased awareness of huntable species, and encouraged the hunting of those rare and interesting species. Whatever motivates men to go hunting at the ends of the earth, or Zambia for that matter is a good thing. For if those species didn't have an economic value to sportmen, we both know what their fates would be. When our own members turn on each other over people's opinion on "motivation" our sport will have a serious problem. I find there are droves of people who continue to be critical, for no other reason, to say, "well I don't think that's hunting!" On this website it is rampant...case and point outfitter post rhino hunt 22" gives a price...people comment "what's his name" or "rhino kill not hunting". Maybe he measured it, maybe he guessed? who knows? I never feel bad asking what size "blank" I should expect. But on this website, I will say it again, that many people take the attitude that if you're not hunting Zim/Tanz/Zam/Bots that you're hunting canned farms. Which is crap. People need to realize that hunters participating in the sport legally shouldn't be crucified. | |||
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We were having an auction for a hunt at one of the monthly meetings of DSC, and one of the members asked "can this hunt be a bow hunt?" The guy conducting the auction answered " If you win the bid and pay the money, you can throw rocks at them if you want to!" My feelings entirely! If you pay the money and hunt legally, hunt the way you want to. If you want to rough it and sleep on the ground with a rock for your pillow - go for it. If you want to stay in a lodge and eat 5 course meals with vintage wine every night, and have high speed internet connection - go for it. It's your hunt. As for SCI and the awards programs, I am as quick as anyone to jump on the "bash SCI" threads, they have done things over the years that I didn't like; that said, I am still a dues paying member, and the organization has done a lot to promote African hunting, including providing hunters with a convention to meet with the outfitters from around the globe, talk to them one on one, and book a hunt. And I enjoy reading their magazine.  | |||
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Oryxhunter, Example - there are many kids out there who are the next generation of hunters and many will in all probability attach themselves to SCI. They will then inherit the SCI structures and venture to Africa needing to fulfill requirements set by others and not necessarily themselves. This is not a bad thing but the safari is then dictated by the collection and for the most the experience will be secondary. Most at AR have hunted Buffalo and by the sounds of it many times. They do this for the thrill and the pure hunting of these beasts in the wildest recesses of this continent. I am sure that many set themselves goals but for personal reasons only. Something like that. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Fairgame, These points boil it down to the core. Is the hunter hunting for his experience, his fulfillment, enjoyment, or is he hunting to enter or record animals he has killed in competition. Hunter vs. collector. The hunter will find flfilment, enrichment, enjoy the fullness of experience in the pursuit. A fellow could be both, hunter and collector, which is a great combination. I've known a few fellows who would be in this catagory. But if it is only collecting, for the ticket punching or competition then you are likely to find shallowness, missed enrichment, hollow experience. Lots of motion, but no progress... I know collectors, and to a man they miss the point, the fullness of the experience, the enrichment. The goal, the trophy, isn't the whole experience, the hunt, it is the horns or ivory. That one needs to hunt a living creature, and kill it, is just a proccess, a procedure, required to render the horns or ivory to possession. The perspective of the hunter is that the trophy is the process, the hunt, the experience. The trophy is the memory, the full experience, the success of the proccess, the whole of the animal. Horns or ivory are merely trinkets taken from the hunt which prompt the hunter's memory of the full experience, and that is the trophy. I'm not sure if my writing this morning is up to the task of conveying what I see are the difference. BTW, I don't condemn the collector, and support the notion that if they want to hunt then they ought to hunt. But I do have trouble getting into their shoes and figuring out why they selected killing animals to collect horns, ivory, hides as their venue for competition. And figuring out why they continue when most trips seem to leave them so unsatisfied. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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I've never scored or measured one of the animals i took and i see no reason to do so in the future. I hunt for adventure and because i love nature and wildlife. But there is no diffrence for the animal and i don't have a problem with collectors as long as they do a fair hunt. | |||
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I don't understand why so many people are so quick to condemn others motives for doing what they do. If it is so offensive to score an animal or to carry a tape and the stalk/experience is the only thing that matters, sell your gun and get a camera. Compare the equipment and methods used today to those 50 years ago. I read about 500 yard shots, latest GPS equipment and ATV use. How many critical "purists" truly do it the hard way? I think the comment that if it is legal it is a matter of choice and that's that is correct. When I hear these type debates, I wonder how many of the critics are pissed off they cannot afford to travel the world hunting many different species so they attack those that can. Oxyhunter: I would be glad to share a camp with you! | |||
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My two cents: I do think the tape measure and the growing concern of "what did it score" has certainly dampened the spirit of what hunting is all about. It has basically made hunting into a competition, just as bass fishing tournaments had changed fishing. Now there's crappy, redfish, billfish, etc. competitions. Obviously, everyone has the option of setting their own criteria in what makes a "trophy," and they have every right to hunt as they see fit to achieve their goals. Unfortunately, too many of them look down on other hunters whose criteria is not up to theirs. But yes...I'm a "collector." I have two rooms filled with dead critters from three continents. Although I've never been a meat hunter, I've never really been a devout trophy hunter where score mattered. Many of the mounts are my first of the species. Others are representative heads and some are better than average. Only one has ever been scored, and that was for the sake of the outfitter who wanted to enter the CA blacktail in the SCI book. He paid the fee, not me. Although folks have said a few of the other heads would make the various "books," I have no interest in knowing what they score either "officially" or unofficially. The only time I've taken a tape to any of them was to measure either spread, horn length, distance between the eyes, etc., but that was for mere curiosity or to have some semblance of reference for my taxidermist. When I hunted Africa, the outfitter guaranteed every animal would make the SCI record book. On the first day, I told the PH I didn't give a rat's ass about the SCI record book; if he thought any animal was a nice representative trophy, just say so and I would kill it. And that's what I did. Perhaps some or all met the SCI minimums, but I have no idea since none were measured for score. Yet every one of them is hanging on my wall as representative specimens of those species. And that it is how I have always approached all my hunting regardless of where I was or what species I was hunting over the past 55 years. It's still that way today. Coincidentally, while I was in Africa, there was a guy from San Francisco at the same lodge. He was a handgun hunter obsessed with collecting SCI book entries. So every night in the bar, he would let everyone know it. After the first day, as soon as he started talking, many of the others within ear-shot would simply roll their eyes and try to move somewhere where they didn't have to listen to his SCI score-driven exploits of the day. After a couple days, his nightly audience was quite small -- usually the outfitter or the bartender. I doubt a severe case of BO would have resulted in as much avoidance.  In short, he was a bore of the penultimate magnitude. Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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I think if everyone is entirely honest,,, size does matter,, the tape measure does have a place in the field. Should it be the ultimate guide for a hunt,, I don't know,, it isn't for me. We need to learn to judge the quality of the animals before we shoot,, but using a tape after the shot is a good leason for the ground shrinkage that happens a great deal. Sure, I check off a list, I want to add species of animals to what I have hunted, and I want to hunt different areas and see different things. Same reason I do not go to the same place every year for vacation. Does the whole SCI scoreing system interest me,, not personally,, I have never had an animal scored,, in fact,, because of this thread I measured the length of the horn on one of my gemsbock,, is a 42 inch gemsbock with a bow considered a trophy,, I have no idea but it was a great hunt, stalk, and shot, and recovery. I take what Africa presents to me when I am in the field,,normally because I bow hunt. Now,, if I go for a buffalo,,, game on,,,, I want a mature old hard bossed buff,, worn down or broken horns with character even better... If I don't get a shot,, it isn't a failed safari,, just no taxidermy bill! To each his own but I do tend to migrate away from those talking strictly "my bull scored "xyz" Just not what interests me, you can make more money, you can not make more time | |||
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Fairgame, I can see your point, but I don't agree with your opinions about these people's desires. I'm fortunate to know some of the biggest collectors/hunters in Texas. And when I've sat down with them to talk about it, they remember every detail. SO this general idea that collectors don't enjoy their hunts is just not correct in my opinion. I feel that most people just make up these opinions about these guys without ever knowing one. Now you're a PH, so you get to deal with them directly, so you have every right to throw your pennies in. However, I'll admit this to the AR family...and I'm sure this will make some people "dissapointed" in me as a hunter. But if I save up my money, and book a big hunt, many 1000's for a lion, leopard, elephant, whatever...and I don't get the trophy that I'm planning for, I'm going to be pissed! I know it's hunting, not shopping, but that's why I pay professional like you to give me every possible chance, and is a reason I would pick someone like yourself, that has proven they can produce. I'm not infinitely rich, if I was I would think my opinions would change. But safaris cost, flights, time away from work, time away from family...ect, no trophy is a serious problem for me. Now there will be a backlash I'm sure "I've taken (blank) safaris and come home empty loved every minute..blah blah..." Which is fine, but I will say that I can't believe they enjoyed it as much as if they got whatever they were after. It would defy the laws of human nature! Somebody on here made this quote (I'm paraphrasing), and I thought it summed up my feelings: "if I'm going to spend that much money and come home with nothing, I can hike here in the states for a lot less" From a purely business standpoint, you had better hope that SCI gets ahold of the new generation, and if it takes the record book to do so then more power to them. I'm a young guy, 26, and I have zero friends who do any kind of international hunting. ZERO! And I live in Texas, that is scary. SCI and DSC are the only people on cable television to expose people to your world of hunting. There's a huge gap between deer hunters and international hunters. And I truely believe the number of international hunters is on the decline, and it will be tough in the future to be an outfitter and survive. Maybe not for the top outfits, but there's going to be a squeeze. The new generation, everything is a competition...just check out the tv shows, how many reality based competition shows are out there...tons. People love to compete, it's natural. LJS- we could indeed share a camp! I agree with you concerning the critics. My generation would call them Haters...and they will always be around! | |||
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Jerad,
If this is honestly your attitude you really DON'T know it's hunting. A guided high dollar hunt is still a hunt and if you really would be pissed if you did not get your game you should stay home. You do not buy the animals. What you've bought is an opportunity to hunt those animals. No matter how much money you throw at a hunt or much research you do and regardless of how good the PH is you can't absolutely determine the end result. If you could it would not be hunting. if you were my client and told me you were pissed because you didn't get your huge whatever I would think you had missed the point of the safari completely and cheated yourself out of the fabulous expereince that a safari can be. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Those who come to Africa and go home empty handed are very few. If you do your research well and go to the best areas you can afford then you should succeed whether a collector or not. However there are no guarentees in hunting and this is part of what hunting is about. JudgeG has just published a great piece of writing regarding his recent elephant hunt. His vibrant prose well expresses a passionate relationship with Africa and all that is wild. The trophy he took was secondary and if he did not shoot his elephant on that last day his account would have been much the same but a couple of lines shorter. For me he is what hunting is about and welcome in my camp. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Mark, I didn't say I wouldn't enjoy the experience, maybe "pissed" is too strong a word. Dissapointed maybe more appropriate. Does it mean I will complain or get heated with my ph or outfitter, NO! You can't deny that your clients have a serious belief that the hunts you send them on will be successful. If indeed your company was very unsuccessful in getting your clients on trophies, I would have to beleive you would no longer be in business? Not everyone has 10 trips to africa...some people's 1st will more than likely be their last. Mark it is obvious you've worked hard, and been able to hunt some incredible species, but so few people really get that chance. Do you catch my drift? Can you honestly say that you don't sell your clients with the idea that they will be coming home with their trophy? Ph's and outfitters always says, well it's hunting I can't promise you "blank". But usually they have some statistic they will throw in, to show you they have some ability to promise something. I'm just being completely real...and I would think, whether people want to admit it or not, there are other common Joes like me, who would feel the same. FairGame- I agree, there aren't many things that are sure bets in life...especially in hunting. But there is some sort of expectation of success, I would think human nature would lead to some sort of let down! I have read Judge G and I agree with you, he recounts a great story. | |||
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I have to agree with Mark. You are not going to a supermarket that has advertised 3" porterhouse steak for sale. When the supermarket can't produce what they advertised for sale, you have a reason to be pissed. Not so on any fair chase hunt. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Jared, We talk about safari in terms of trophy animals because it is something that is concrete and can be described. The quest for the trophies is what initates the safari and gives the hunt its structure. The total experience that is safari is a more nebulous thing and unfortunately some people never really grasp this aspect of safari. It's also difficult or perhaps impossibe to get it unless you've hunted in some of Africa's wild places and felt the heartbeat of the real bush. I can understand disappointment but not to the point that you let it ruin your safari. Lions have been a buggaboo for me and I've been unsuccessful 3 out of the 4 times I've hunted them but I got to HUNT lions. in my book the process that goes into the lion hunt is worth the price. Having that lion in Tanznaia that was almost a shooter come trotting in to the bait at midday with a poof of dust kiicked up with each one of his steps will be stuck in my memory forever. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Mark, Again, I will say I wouldn't let it ruin my safaris either! | |||
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No truer words have been spoken and I couldn't agree more. I think this is the exact reason why so many of us personaly abhore canned hunting because there's really no question to the "end result" as Mark put it. I know Mark didn't mean his comments to go toward canned hunting and I don't mean this to highjack the thread I just thought Marks words were fitting and apply well! Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Always plenty of debate on this issue but I think Zig succintly summed it up. In the end each of us hunts for his/her own personal reasons. What I seek in the hunting experience is for me to define and savour alone. In the end, if it is only distasteful to you and not illegal or immoral, who are we to judge if it keeps the wild places wild? On the plains of hesitation lie the bleached bones of ten thousand, who on the dawn of victory lay down their weary heads resting, and there resting, died. If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch... Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it, And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son! - Rudyard Kipling Life grows grim without senseless indulgence. | |||
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I do not think the tape has been mentioned here? Besides if you are collecting for SCI then it is the species count not the length of horn that is important. If you need have a buffalo then go to South Africa and shoot it from the deck of the swimming pool. Perfectly legal. If you want to hunt a buffalo then ask someone like Lou Hallimore to take you into the jesse of the Zambezi valley. Different strokes for different folks you say? Well you and the slayer of Gemsbok enjoy your little camping trip. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Pretty well said Mark!! | |||
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Mark,  That's how I have approached ALL hunting, not only Africa. "One does not hunt in order to kill. On the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted." Ortega y Gasset Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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Mr Fairgame, you make a very good point. There is a massive difference between hunting game and just shooting (sniping) it, a distinction that is clearly lost on some of the posters here. Hiding behind legalities is irrelevant.  | |||
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Mr. Frederick: I'm certainly sorry we will not be able to share that campfire down the road. I suspect we both would learn a great deal.  | |||
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Hi Mike, Totally agree and recording trophies is an important research tool. The book(s) are constantly referred to by both PH and client. I have yet to meet a hunter who has not wanted the best out of the area and this makes for good and hard hunting. I do not mean to boast but all my clients have gone away with there priority animals, but then again I hunt good areas. One of my best friends now I met whilst he was pusuing the African 29 and his sentiments were almost identical to yours. In fact he came back to Africa so many times he wrote a book about his adventures - soon to be published. Mike I was quite careful not to condemn SCI but rather felt that alot of members I had hunted were to more focused on the collection and Africa became secondary because this is all they know. I hunted a SCI Director sometime back and as we pulled out of camp I stopped in a dambo as the sun was rising casting long slithers of gold across the plain, a regal Sable bull decorated that scene that morning, looking much like a battleship in the sea of grass. Mr SCI urged me to go on as Sable were not on his list? Africa seemingly was of no interest no more. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Andrew, Yes, rather than all the pissing matches this topic always seems to engender over awards, medals, etc., I feel the real issue of entering animals into the book gets overlooked. Most folks, in my experience, do not make entries to qualify for awards, but rather to contribute to the knowledge base which is the record book and to give credit to their outfitters and PHs who are listed with each entry. My original introduction to the record book was from my first PH on my first safari, who encouraged me to enter my animals. I've discussed the book with every PH since and they virtually all appreciate having my trophies entered along with their names, and most have a copy of the book in camp. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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Thanks for that Mike. Note we only have one book in camp and are still fortunate to be able make reference to Rowland Ward where the minium entries are very high compared to the SCI structure. Generally the trophy quality is excellent in Zambia and we are consistantly breaking records more recently Sable and Sitatunga. I think the SCI number one Buffalo was also taken here? Andrew ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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It is interesting Mark posts 4 trophies, but not a picture captioned "End of unsucessful hunt" showing him with a hugh smile. I almost did the 15 day hunt (Leopard and Buffalo) without killing an animial and I was not feeling too good. At 1:45 PM last day I got my buffalo 38" (oh my god I measured the trophy) and it wasn't "book". I dare say I worked hard for him, have you hunted the Omay? | |||
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Unfortunately, you usually only hear about the hunter who is on a mission to get all the this or all the that to be recognized for that accomplishment. These men are by far the vast minority within SCI. I have a couple friends who have taken many species and yes they have entered them into SCI but they are all ethical, honest hard hunters who spend vast amounts of time and money and put themselves at physical risk hunting the exotic mountain animals. One universal observation I have made is that these men are also very charitable with their time and resources when it comes to helping others less fortunate to enjoy hunting. Learn about some of the things SCI members do before condemning them for why they try to get recognition for multiple species taken. Almost every thing we do is a competition. Is their a deer hunter out their that doesn't go up to his buck and the first thing he does is count the points? What's your bowling average, what's your son's batting average etc....My earlier point was it bothers me when we judge others by our values presuming we are always right. It would be very difficult to explain why someone would want to shoot a dozen cow elephant or a hundred buffalo and not pursue other species. The answer is it is what I enjoy doing. It isn't right or wrong if it is what you want to do. | |||
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LJS  ETC!!!!!!! | |||
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Quote - Whilst SCI does a tremendous amount of good and I am not debating that here... end quote. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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DOJ, Your caustic personality is showing through again. I know you'll take that as a compliment. Seriously I honestly don't think I ever had a safari that was really "UNSUCESSFUL". I may not have taken the major trophy I was after but in all cases there was so much positive about the hunts that I could not look on them as unsucessful. In 2003 I hunted Tanzania for 28 days in two areas. I didn't get a lion, nor did I shoot a buffalo. Because of that lack of "success" I received a huge blast of shit on AR for spending all that money and not taking these animals. Folks could not imagine turning down a lion and not shooting a buffalo because it did not fit my picture. I did shoot a good leoapard and all the unique EA species except oryx and Coke's hartebeest. How is that not a success? Just being in Masailand was worth the price. Now sitting in a tree in Saskatchewan for 6 days and not seeing a deer let alone shooting a buck in my mind is an unsuccessful hunt. The "experience" is just not valuable to me. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Counting points has nothing to do with competition. As for bowling and baseball, it's comparing apples and oranges. Those and any other team or individual sport were ALWAYS MEANT to be competitive. Hunting and fishing wasn't, and neither has been until the recent decades, about 50 years or so. Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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That then would be another invited to my camp. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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When one talks about "the way it was" back in the old days, re reading the old commentary in literature, wasn't the "glory" in shooting MANY of the various big game species (in particular, elephant?) I remember reading somewhere about a German Baron of some sort going over and shooting 20 or so Lion? Were not ancient kings eulogized about how many Lion they killed? So would that not tend to indicate that sport hunting has always had some people who view this as a "competition" of some sort? Personally, while I like good specimens, and like to try different areas and experiences, I don't see why to me what another does is that big of a deal. A personal goal is a personal goal, and how easy it is to reach is your own issue. To a PH it is probably a much bigger issue. His reputation and income (especially the tip) depend on keeping the client happy. I could see how the average PH would much rather have a client who is happy shooting a "average" representative member of the species, and have a client who wants to work hard, but not too hard to earn them- showing this guy his "good hunt" is MUCH easier than the fellow who says up front Only a 60" Kudu, only a 40" Buffalo, etc. On the other hand, if they are really unreasonable, I have heard a PH say that everything is not big enough- and they never shoot a thing (as the PH "isn't sure" its big enough regardless of size). | |||
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Counting points has nothing to do with competition. As for bowling and baseball, it's comparing apples and oranges. Those and any other team or individual sport were ALWAYS MEANT to be competitive. Hunting and fishing wasn't, and neither has been until the recent decades, about 50 years or so.[/QUOTE] Tony, Tony, Tony - You are correct in part of your statement, but it needs expansion as to the WHY scores are now used - and it's been so for more like the last 100 years. Prior to the turn of the 20th century, or shortly thereafter, most hunting and fishing was done for profit or sustenance, whether on a New England Whaler or hunting buffalo to feed the railroad builders or bringing home a buck to feed the family. In Africa it was the ivory hunters and poachers or the museum collectors. Rowland Ward published their first Records of Big Game in 1892. This may be considered the advent of SPORT hunting as we know it today. Hunting and fishing became a sport rather than a way to make a living (for profit) for those who had the means to do so, and hunting and fishing guides and outfitters followed shortly thereafter, thereby establishing a profit making resource from the sport hunters. Most of these sport hunters were of wealthy means, as money and time was required to pursue these interests (steamship to and from Africa). As the twentieth century passed into its later decades and disposable income became a fact for more of the middle class and air travel continued to develop, so did safari become available to the common man. So, you see, sport hunting and fishing has been around for at least 100 years. Likewise the record book, as a means to rank trophies and compare them to one another. Hope that all makes sense. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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If you look at the way it was in the old days, everyone from the mountain men to the early African hunters, including Teddy Roosevelt, made an effort to have as comfortable camp as possible, and used the best weapons they had available. I think the idea of make your hunt as rough and primative as possible is a relatively recent thing. | |||
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Mike, Mike, Mike, Please don't patronize me. I'm well aware of how long hunting and fishing have been around as a "sport" -- in reality as a personal pastime, hobby or interest. The only reason the term "sport" became associated with either hunting and fishing was to distinguish the RECREATIONAL side of them from the commercial aspect, which is still a big part of the fishing scene, as you are well aware. It still doesn't translate to them EVER meant to be a COMPETITION -- profit-making or not. And yes, the various record books have also been around for a long time, but never have they been so abused and misused as they have been over the past 30-40 years. Just go back 50 years and read some old hunting magazines. One would have to look long and hard to find consistent mentions of "scores" and/or the various record books as is seen today. How do I know? Because I started my writing career in 1968. Now, though, if I propose an article about some guy's hard-earned trophy _____, the first thing the editor wants to know is "what did it score?" and "where would it be in the ____book?" Just look at the magazines of today, and it's easy to see that score is everything now. The worst are the ego-driven ones such as Eastman's, Trophy Hunter, Mulie Crazy or perhaps even Safari. In short, for too many folks hunting has become a "my penis is bigger than yours" instead of a simple pastime to be enjoyed for what it is. And when the success of the hunt is determined by the size of the penis, it's even worse. And lest we forget, the topic of this thread is "The hunt for medals."  Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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In my part of the world we do a lot of fishing and the most prized "trophy" is the Dhufish, considered by many as the finest eating fish in the world. A 40 lb specimen is probably akin, in rarity, to a 100 lb tusker. Do we want to catch one? No! Why?, because the flesh of a 40+ year old fish is not as good eating as a much younger, smaller one and if caught they are always returned, to keep up the breeding stock. The worst case scenario is that they (the big buggers) sometimes die if hauled up from deep water, due to the sudden pressure change. Under such circumstances, the catch is not considered a victory but a sad failure. So, I suppose, in some ways, fishing is a "sport", to me anyway, where size matters, in the reverse sense. The same principle applies to many species of fish. Don't know if my point is relevant to this discussion, but then again, who cares.  BTW, there are no tape measures or scales on our boat. | |||
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As long as there is a numerical 'score', there will be competition. Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps. | |||
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You know, we are all "trophy" hunters where Africa is concerned. Everyone is a collector in that sense. How or why anyone decides what to hunt is an individual choice. It is also an individual choice on how to decide on what size animal to take. Why a person makes these choices is their own personal decision. As long as the animals are hunted legally it is not my place to make judgements. I will agree that if a person gets caught up in the competition it might not be as enjoyable for them. Then again maybe not. Some folks derive pleasure from the competition. I own a complete et of SCI record books as well as RW. I bought them several years back when getting ready to go to Africa the first time. As others have said they make great reference material even now. I have many animals that would go high in the book and even a couple of top ten. You wont however find my name in any of the books. Why? It is because I dont give a damn about the awards or competition. I dont need to see my name in print to feel fulfilled. If someone else does why should I care? Why should any of us care for that matter? Everyone hunts for their own reasons. As long as it is done legally and responsibly it is "ethical" in my book. Happiness is a warm gun | |||
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