Just saw this report today.


The entire report
http://www.plosone.org/article...journal.pone.0029332

Article in USA today
http://content.usatoday.com/co...-than-outright-ban/1


Conclusions from the Study

While trophy hunting could survive without lion hunting in most areas, the species is an important financial component of an industry which is marginal in some areas and vulnerable to reductions in profitability. Blanket trade restrictions would unfairly punish countries where lion hunting is well managed, and could be negative for lions by undermining the competitiveness of wildlife-based land uses and by undermining tolerance for lions which are typically a high-cost species due to their tendency to kill livestock. A preferable alternative would be the introduction of recommended quotas (0.5 lions/1000 km2) as such an intervention would allow lion hunting to be sustainable, while retaining conservation-incentives from trophy hunting. Sustainability would be enhanced further if age-based regulations were implemented (e.g. as in Niassa National Reserve) [37] and if governance of the industry was improved to provide communities with greater stakeholdings. Temporary moratoria on lion hunting could be used to allow recoveries in areas where hunting is implicated in negative lion population trends. Lion populations recover quickly when the pressure of excessive harvests is removed. Consequently, over-hunting is likely to pose little threat to the long term persistence of lions so long as interventions are made to address excessive quotas where they occur. Conversely, if lion hunting was banned, and wildlife-based land uses were replaced by alternatives in some areas, the long term prospects for lion conservation in those areas would be poor and reversing negative trends would be unlikely. Precluding lion hunting may therefore be a greater long term risk to lions than over-hunting. That said, urgent efforts are needed by range states to reform lion hunting management, and temporary moratoria could be considered for use as levers to promote such changes.

What crap. The last ten years we have taken 30 odd big mature males off the Lunga and the Kafue in an area that is a fraction of what is stated. Most Lions are probably coming from the Park (whose boundaries we protect) or maybe they are not? I do not know, no one really knows because no one is studying Lions in the Lunga, or the Kafue, the Zambezi, the Luswishi, Kapambopo, Rufunsa, Lukashashi, Luemsemfwa rivers to name a few.

25 years in the field with Lions and on two recent occasions the only so called researcher I have met is Ms. Paula White who we support and subsidise with the odd glass of wine.

Note in the last 25 years I have seen an increase in Lion along with the game in managed areas yet never have I ever come across anyone with a hand held Lion counter.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
30 odd big mature males

What made them odd?

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
30 odd big mature males

What made them odd?

Can't answer that so I will send you a PM.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:,
Note in the last 25 years I have seen an increase in Lion along with the game in managed areas yet never have I ever come across anyone with a hand held Lion counter.

That's because they report by sat. uplink directly to 1-800-lions-r-us...

Big assumption in that crap study or report that most lions killed are sporting hunted and not poisoned or killed by locals for land use/cattle competition etc.

Maybe the researchers can suggest a quota for the illegal killed wildlife as well.

Good grief ! make up your minds people !

Here is a study actually supporting what most here claim ie Hunting or lion is likely more beneficial to overall Lion survival than having an outright ban on their hunting and you call it crap?

What exactly is crap about this study ?

I can tell you from experience that having the big five resident and available for consumption ( game viewing or hunting) in the game industry in Africa is the holy grail. And top of the heap for whatever reason is the lion.

Lion are the rock stars !

You called that one right, Alf..

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Good grief ! make up your minds people !

Here is a study actually supporting what most here claim ie Hunting or lion is likely more beneficial to overall Lion survival than having an outright ban on their hunting and you call it crap?

What exactly is crap about this study ?

I can tell you from experience that having the big five resident and available for consumption ( game viewing or hunting) in the game industry in Africa is the holy grail. And top of the heap for whatever reason is the lion.

Lion are the rock stars !

Agreed but what is crap is there is no study never has been. Who came up with the figure of 20,000 Lions?

Well at least something in the main stream media concedes that sport hunting is beneficial to preserving wildlife and helping local economies. I try to keep a log of these articiles to show people.

Last month at work an otherwise reasonable person said "how can you hunt elephants, they are almost extinct. Is it legal?"

I pulled out an article on eles in Bots, where as I recall they have 120,0000 and take of 44 a year.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Good grief ! make up your minds people !

Here is a study actually supporting what most here claim ie Hunting or lion is likely more beneficial to overall Lion survival than having an outright ban on their hunting and you call it crap?

What exactly is crap about this study ?

I can tell you from experience that having the big five resident and available for consumption ( game viewing or hunting) in the game industry in Africa is the holy grail. And top of the heap for whatever reason is the lion.

Lion are the rock stars !

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Good grief ! make up your minds people !

Here is a study actually supporting what most here claim ie Hunting or lion is likely more beneficial to overall Lion survival than having an outright ban on their hunting and you call it crap?

What exactly is crap about this study ?

Exactly ALF.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Good grief ! make up your minds people !

Here is a study actually supporting what most here claim ie Hunting or lion is likely more beneficial to overall Lion survival than having an outright ban on their hunting and you call it crap?

What exactly is crap about this study ?

I can tell you from experience that having the big five resident and available for consumption ( game viewing or hunting) in the game industry in Africa is the holy grail. And top of the heap for whatever reason is the lion.

Lion are the rock stars !

Agreed but what is crap is there is no study never has been. Who came up with the figure of 20,000 Lions?

Andrew,

Where are you getting that figure?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Good grief ! make up your minds people !

Here is a study actually supporting what most here claim ie Hunting or lion is likely more beneficial to overall Lion survival than having an outright ban on their hunting and you call it crap?

What exactly is crap about this study ?

I can tell you from experience that having the big five resident and available for consumption ( game viewing or hunting) in the game industry in Africa is the holy grail. And top of the heap for whatever reason is the lion.

Lion are the rock stars !

Agreed but what is crap is there is no study never has been. Who came up with the figure of 20,000 Lions?

Andrew,

Where are you getting that figure?

Dr Easter,
That figure is in the first paragraph under the photo in the USA Today linked story in the original post.

Gentlemen:

Read the actual study as cited, not the USA today's version of the study. The USA today article is not a reflection of the content of the study.

Whether you guys want to hear it or not, the Lion numbers are going down and at a alarming rate. The reason is multifactorial, it's not a hunting thing or a poaching thing per se. Disease such as Bovine TB and Feline Aids are taking their collective toll.

As to the Source of the study hailing form the Mammal Research Institute at the University of Pretoria South Africa.

This institution is also home to the Eugene Marais Institute of Wildlife Conservation, they have a long standing reputation of producing quality researchers and valid study data invaluable to Wildlife Conservation and game Ranching in Southern Africa.

Another body associated with the University is the Wildlife study Group of the Veterinary School at Onderstepoort. They have over the years hosted excellent workshops for game ranchers and conservators on key species including the Lion and Leopard.

This was home to Prof Bothma, one of the original big name Lion Researchers, the late Prof Rae Smithers who authored the monumental work Mammals of the Southern African Subregion, Dr. Butch Smuts the well known Lion Expert and many others. As an undergraduate Student these gentlemen were my Profs at University in the early 70's.

Smuts physically counted and mapped the lion pride territories in the KNP. A popular account of the body of his work can be found in his book Lion published in the late 70's.

What amazes me about these lLion threads how readily AR members will dismiss any research or a researchers work that they feel threatens their percieved future ability to hunt Lion.

Many forget that much of the body of research done is done as part of a persons life work. Those in the field associated with the University of Pretoria are true Wildlife heroes, they are the real deal.

The guys that I personally know ( many who were pioneers in the industry and have since passed on) work for a pittance, they work in the trenches of the wildlife industry.

And yes they count animals with a counter.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
What amazes me about these lLion threads how readily AR members will dismiss any research or a researchers work that they feel threatens their percieved future ability to hunt Lion.

Well that is also crap.

And another big assumption completely unfounded on fact. Maybe you should apply for a grant to investigate people's motivations for calling lion studies crap ...

But typical AR, attack the man not the argument ...


As I read it, it argues SOME lion hunting should be continued, but a much lower rate.

So how are they going to put a quota on poaching, poisoning of predators, encroachment of hunting areas by competing land users - grazers, cattle, poaching, charcoal burners, etc etc etc.

quote:

So how are they going to put a quota on poaching, poisoning of predators, encroachment of hunting areas by competing land users - grazers, cattle, poaching, charcoal burners, etc etc etc.

This is exactly the issue, you cannot put a quota on disease , or poaching or human population explosion, but what you can do is to research the nature and impact of disease, then take steps to combat disease, you can define exactly how and why poaching occurs then put counter measuers in place and finally you can counter the effects of human encroachment by creating conservancies.

This after all is what sound Wildlife management and sustainable utilization is all about and once you have done it and continue doing it becomes possible for the excess to be hunted.

This incidently is the only model so far in Africa that is seen to be working.

With regards to Rhino ( and other species) in Southern Africa it is currently failing because an integral part of this model in the form of the will of responsible government is absent.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

What amazes me about these lLion threads how readily AR members will dismiss any research or a researchers work that they feel threatens their percieved future ability to hunt Lion.

Many forget that much of the body of research done is done as part of a persons life work. Those in the field associated with the University of Pretoria are true Wildlife heroes, they are the real deal.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Read the actual study as cited, not the USA today's version of the study. The USA today article is not a reflection of the content of the study.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
..........

With regards to Rhino ( and other species) in Southern Africa it is currently failing because an integral part of this model in the form of the will of responsible government is absent.

In South Africa the terrorist organization that calls themselves the government has absolutely no will to maintain anything other than their own access to the state coffers from which they steal. The ANC also have absolutely no sense of responsibility whatsoever - other than to reciprocally cover up for each other's theft, corruption and gross incompetence to get any job done. We live in a failed society!

But there is still some good hunting to be enjoyed in South Africa!


Andrew McLaren

Here is a question for the AR experts:

Given that lion do not occur haphazardly within an eco system and their numbers are finite given their perculiar form of socialization.

How many male individuals can be taken from a specific population by hunting before we see a positive or negative effect on absolute numbers?

And what are your individual views on how, if any, quotas be determined and implemented ?

Or should we simply be allowed to hunt them at random and with impunity ?

The same could also then be asked of other Key species in the big five line-up ?

What about Leopard? or Rhino or Elephant ?

ALF,

The experts claim we can shoot every old Lion that has been ousted from a pride. The age seems to be around the six year plus mark. The problem is not the number of Lions but the selective process whilst hunting them.

In Zambia there is a limit on ivory weight which I would have thought corresponds to age, therefore the older bulls can be targeted?

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
ALF,

The experts claim we can shoot every old Lion that has been ousted from a pride. The age seems to be around the six year plus mark. The problem is not the number of Lions but the selective process whilst hunting them.

In Zambia there is a limit on ivory weight which I would have thought corresponds to age, therefore the older bulls can be targeted?

Hell No! - these are the most photogenic of the group - they should be allowed to live until they drop dead in their tracks, hit by a bloody truck or in the case of lions, taunted and eventually ripped to pieces by the hyenas.

quotas or not, there just aren't that many 6 yo lions in the wild any more. You cannot expect to find 8 or 10 6yo lions/season in any single concession anywhere in Africa cause they don't exist! And even if you did the one year, it won't be repeated year in and year out.

Stick to the 6 year age limit and you will be shooting less lions than before.

quote:

The experts claim we can shoot every old Lion that has been ousted from a pride. The age seems to be around the six year plus mark

quote:

quotas or not, there just aren't that many 6 yo lions in the wild any more. You cannot expect to find 8 or 10 6yo lions/season in any single concession anywhere in Africa cause they don't exist! And even if you did the one year, it won't be repeated year in and year out.

Both above statements are spot on.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
ALF,

The experts claim we can shoot every old Lion that has been ousted from a pride. The age seems to be around the six year plus mark. The problem is not the number of Lions but the selective process whilst hunting them.In Zambia there is a limit on ivory weight which I would have thought corresponds to age, therefore the older bulls can be targeted?

Andrew,
While you may be able to defend that bolded statement above for your specific hunting territory...it is NOT true as a general statement across the range states.