quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
OK, thanks for the interesting info...... can any dentist or vet do that with a tooth and as a matter of interest, does the tooth have to be removed from the skull to do it?

The reason I ask is that I have an old tigeress skull here and it'd be interesting to know how old the animal was when it was shot.

Obviously can't send it overseas though!

Steve,
The answer is: "they should be able to".

You MUST get a quality image because you are measuring the pulp cavity which is very narrow in all and you are making an assessment on mm.

Now...before all the naysayers jump in say: "mm's, s&!t that is crazy"...with computer captured images...it is quite easy to accurate down to fractions of a mm.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
OK, thanks for the interesting info...... can any dentist or vet do that with a tooth and as a matter of interest, does the tooth have to be removed from the skull to do it?

The reason I ask is that I have an old tigeress skull here and it'd be interesting to know how old the animal was when it was shot.

Obviously can't send it overseas though!

And for a tigress...it would an extrapolation from lion data...but for your information...it would prabably be close.

Lane,
I think he was talking about Susan!!!!!! but if she see's him using the word old in conjunction with tigress she will neuter him with a rusty knife

Thanks buddy..... I'll look into it.

Hook,

Noooooo. No way I'd talk about management like that.... as you say, she's too experienced with a knife and/or scalpel for me to do that.

the thought made you shutter didn't it

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
JohnHunt,

The younger Lions taken are for the most nomads who are looking to infiltrate a pride. I am not sure how the shooting of these males disrupts the social order? This only further protects the dominate pride males and their offspring?

I've left this unanswered and thrown the odd 'bait" to see what further discourse would come out of it. It appears this specific scenario has not drawn much more attention....

If you do this consistantly, you are eliminating the "reserve" male population that would naturally replace your old and dying pride males. What this then does to your population dynamics over time (and not a lot of time based on Whittman et alia's models)is that there won't be enough pride male replacement. Population rate will slow down and eventually crash.

Not a good idea

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
JohnHunt,

The younger Lions taken are for the most nomads who are looking to infiltrate a pride. I am not sure how the shooting of these males disrupts the social order? This only further protects the dominate pride males and their offspring?

I've left this unanswered and thrown the odd 'bait" to see what further discourse would come out of it. It appears this specific scenario has not drawn much more attention....

If you do this consistantly, you are eliminating the "reserve" male population that would naturally replace your old and dying pride males. What this then does to your population dynamics over time (and not a lot of time based on Whittman et alia's models)is that there won't be enough pride male replacement. Population rate will slow down and eventually crash.

Not a good idea

In a perfect world...certainly one in which we DON'T exist...where we were ALL on the same page...to do the very best for the lion regardless of money or politics. A world in which true conservation prevailed and a bribe could not be paid...a world where all PH's were looking after their known prides and keeping up with the lion/pride dynamics in the areas they hunted...I could see a scenario where by taking the occassional young male out of a coalition of young males could be a beneficial thing to do for the health of a pride.

Otherwise...I agree with Bwanamich.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
JohnHunt,

The younger Lions taken are for the most nomads who are looking to infiltrate a pride. I am not sure how the shooting of these males disrupts the social order? This only further protects the dominate pride males and their offspring?

I've left this unanswered and thrown the odd 'bait" to see what further discourse would come out of it. It appears this specific scenario has not drawn much more attention....

If you do this consistantly, you are eliminating the "reserve" male population that would naturally replace your old and dying pride males. What this then does to your population dynamics over time (and not a lot of time based on Whittman et alia's models)is that there won't be enough pride male replacement. Population rate will slow down and eventually crash.

Not a good idea

In a perfect world...certainly one in which we DON'T exist...where we were ALL on the same page...to do the very best for the lion regardless of money or politics. A world in which true conservation prevailed and a bribe could not be paid...a world where all PH's were looking after their known prides and keeping up with the lion/pride dynamics in the areas they hunted...I could see a scenario where by taking the occassional young male out of a coalition of young males could be a beneficial thing to do for the health of a pride.

Otherwise...I agree with Bwanamich.

Lane,

Rubbish.

I will name this client as a reference if need be and he is a good friend of Aaron.

Howard Langley and I saw 19 Lions during his Lion hunt and 9 males. I am not counting what came to bait but what was seen during the day whilst hunting.

The above males were all nomads. The concession is 13,000 square kilometers and we hunt 5% of this. The quota of Lion is four.

The shooting of these males would not impact on the Lion population.

If anything it would give the pride males a bit of a breather.

Bwanamitch speaks of Tanzania and there are very few Lions taken annually in that country. Probably because there are very few Lions.

Fairgame:

quote:

Bwanamitch speaks of Tanzania and there are very few Lions taken annually in that country. Probably because there are very few Lions.

According to CP's report though Tanzania is host to the largest Lion population for the entire African continent - could it be that the greater part of this figure was composed of females and that most of the males aged between 5 - 8 had been shot out ?


Based on the report approx. 200 legally hunted Lion is no mean figure yet it is still considered to be excessive if we want to preserve the numbers and maintain quality.

Cannot say therefore that there are few Lions in Tanzania.

My question to all of you is what happens to the populations in the protected areas where there is no hunting of Lions only possibly indiscriminate poaching that does not choose???
Most hunting areas surround protected areas (Be they in some place practically protected but still Protected).

Hunting blocks act as buffers and even if, which has not happened after how many decades of hunting yet, all the breeding males were shot you would always have replacement if the protected areas are “protected” and quota controlled by clear criteria.

John
Well done on this and your other posts on the Lion Aid Facebook page - as you may have gathered I have been on a lone crusade on that and many other anti hunting forums , fighting for our right to hunt sustainable species.

I strongly urge all hunters and people who believe in sustainable and wise use of our natural resources to go to the Facebook page - Lion Aid and contribute to the debate.

I was blacklisted from the other Facebook page - Lions for Africa for exposing the lies and BS they were telling the general public - I also think I was turning a lot of middle of the road people towards hunting and so they black listed me - also for calling a well known anti hunter - a baffoon - and pointing out that there may just be the chance this character introduced feline aids to Botswana in his incompetent attempt to reintroduce tame Lions to the Tuli Block.

John - you are a legend and hats off to you mate !!!!

Graeme Pollock

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Fairgame:

quote:

Bwanamitch speaks of Tanzania and there are very few Lions taken annually in that country. Probably because there are very few Lions.

According to CP's report though Tanzania is host to the largest Lion population for the entire African continent - could it be that the greater part of this figure was composed of females and that most of the males aged between 5 - 8 had been shot out ?


Based on the report approx. 200 legally hunted Lion is no mean figure yet it is still considered to be excessive if we want to preserve the numbers and maintain quality.

Cannot say therefore that there are few Lions in Tanzania.

Fairgame,

I believe the above is true my friend.

Lane,

I cannot be right 100% of the time.

Cheers

Andrew

quote:

If anything it would give the pride males a bit of a breather.

Young males are probably only really hard on pride males as coalitions...especially 3 young male coalition of 3 or 4 yr old males.

Single adolescent males are not that much threat to pride males until the pride male is really old...then...he needs rplacing...which in turn will make him a good shooter.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Lane,

I cannot be right 100% of the time.

Cheers

Andrew

Rubbish!!!

quote:

Hunting blocks act as buffers and even if, which has not happened after how many decades of hunting yet, all the breeding males were shot you would always have replacement if the protected areas are “protected” and quota controlled by clear criteria.

Inbreeding and genetic diversity also is a concern.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Hunting blocks act as buffers and even if, which has not happened after how many decades of hunting yet, all the breeding males were shot you would always have replacement if the protected areas are “protected” and quota controlled by clear criteria.

Inbreeding and genetic diversity also is a concern.

Hence ginger manes?

quote:

Originally posted by 000sidewinder:
My question to all of you is what happens to the populations in the protected areas where there is no hunting of Lions only possibly indiscriminate poaching that does not choose???
Most hunting areas surround protected areas (Be they in some place practically protected but still Protected).

Hunting blocks act as buffers and even if, which has not happened after how many decades of hunting yet, all the breeding males were shot you would always have replacement if the protected areas are “protected” and quota controlled by clear criteria.

Also...almost every square foot of land in a park is territory of usually a fairly strong pride. Therefore...parks don't hold huge numbers of sub-mature males. Those males are kicked out of prides at some age...probably a year but maybe Bwanamich will chime in hear...and roam as nomads and only satellite the core of pride territory. They bounce around from various prides territory. They are the most likely to frequent hunting blocks. And it may actually be that the hunting blocks serve as their reservoirs.

One issue that is very relevant in to this topic is.

We all know that younger males are much more likely to feed on Baits than older. We also know that deposed nomadic mature males also feed on hunting baits more often than a Mature well established Pride Lion. Not saying them don’t because they do but odds are against it. So this in its self is a natural form of protection.

Wow, lots on this topic. First, I just had the good fortune to have taken a Lion a few weeks ago with Luwire Safaris in Mozambique. They have been enforcing the six year Mim for 4 years (I think). Some hunters have gone home without one for the first couple of years but now they seems to have filled the gap and have Lions in that age group. We took ours from a blind and over bait, had plenty of time to look him over. I even asked if he was legal before I shot. I sure thought so, but that is the PH's call. The client has some responsibility here as well. Mature Lion are easy to ID. But I think it almost impossible to judge a 5-6 year old. The skull will be x-rayed for aging before shipment, I'll get real good opinion on age. But It was estimated to be 7-8 years old

WELL done Steve. The hunting world needs more hunters like you.

Redvm I don’t think your statement is completely true because of you look at Ngorongoro which is only 19 miles across there are four established prides with dominate males in each. So what about the other much larger Parks.

Hi Steve Davis,
Congrats on your Niassa Lion.
Who was your PH at Luwire?
I have enjoyed spending quite a few months just north of the Luambezi river (no doubt you baited this river system) with www.kambakosafaris.com and killed this old bugger in August during a most enjoyable hunt.

I had this very conversation this past weekend with Thiery Labat and Glen Stockil down in the Save Conservancy. Ages are one thing, and as pointed out, very few PHs are going to put their ASSES on the line for a lion that is somewhere around 6 years old, maybe seven.

The point was also made that quotas are based on the area and the viable population in an area. An area with an excess(yes they do occur) should have a reasonable quota of Lions and lionesses on quota. Get the homework done properly and quotas make sense . Screw them up and populations suffer.

Prior to the Moritorium on Lion huntng in Botswana and please note it is a moritorium not a ban or closure - we also were very restricted to how and what we could hunt. No baiting , no males with females , no hunting at night , no spotlights were just a few of the challanges.
The 6 year limit was dropped but strongly recommended and that's because nobody can age a Lion by just observing it from a distance - yes you can get close but we have seen Lions that are 3 years old with huge manes and old lions with no mane. The pink on the nose is also a guideline not a rule. However most of this is moot as Craigh Packer has reveresed his opinion based on his research - one has to wonder why ( anti's offering better study grants etc - who knows ? ) .

quote:

Originally posted by 000sidewinder:
Redvm I don’t think your statement is completely true because of you look at Ngorongoro which is only 19 miles across there are four established prides with dominate males in each. So what about the other much larger Parks.

000,
I don't think that you can realistically compare Ngorongoro with any other part of Africa.

But...even in Kruger...the younger bachelor males will bounce around on the periphery of dominant pride territories. In a park so large though...there is "a lot of periphery!" Still...they will be the most likely to cross the boundary in search of new ground.

quote:

The point was also made that quotas are based on the area and the viable population in an area. An area with an excess(yes they do occur) should have a reasonable quota of Lions and lionesses on quota. Get the homework done properly and quotas make sense . Screw them up and populations suffer.

quote:

The 6 year limit was dropped but strongly recommended and that's because nobody can age a Lion by just observing it from a distance -

Being able to bait definitly helps with the observation.

On Bushman tracking hunt...it would be hard to estimate age.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

The 6 year limit was dropped but strongly recommended and that's because nobody can age a Lion by just observing it from a distance -

Being able to bait definitly helps with the observation.

On Bushman tracking hunt...it would be hard to estimate age.

Agreed. Whilst baiting is not the most sporting of practices is does allow the PH a chance for close observation. I have often had to look really hard at a Lion before making a decision and besides there is nothing quite like looking hard at Lions from a few yards wearing nothing but a grass skirt.