quote:

Although everyone knows my position on this already. Properly and exactly aging a lion on the "paw", IMPOSSIBLE!!

I knew you were gonna complain Aaron. I have just seen very few things that were truly impossible if one tried hard enough to achieve. Many of the things I do routinely in my surgical practice today...folks told me at one time they were impossible.

But I neither...want to argue with you about it. We both have our opinions and we ARE BOTH ON THE SAME SIDE!!!

Spotting scope showed no pink on the nose, he was alone and that he was a "damn big" Lion....weighted just over 240kg on skinning shed scales, green skull was over 26"....I shud have passed on him because a dentist had not pulled a tooth and properly aged him....

Post photos of the lion and teeth. Go one better, pull the tooth and send to Lane who will x-ray it and you can study the pulp cavity. This is all "post mortem" stuff but will help confirm your decision to take him.

I am sure this is what Dr Whyte is doing in a bid to narrow her "margin of error" when aging lions on the paw. That is what it boils down to. And this can't be done without research or science - and the money to pay for it!

KEEPING THE STATUS QUO IS WRONG AND AIN'T HELPING!

Tom,

Age is very important but to me at least, it shouldn't be the sole deciding factor. As I see it, the most important question is if the lion is holding a pride with dependent young or not.

If he's not holding a pride at all or is holding a pride that has no dependent young or (for that matter) pregnant females then he can be taken.

If he is holding a pride with dependent young or with pregnant females, then he should not (usually) be taken.

The only way to be anywhere near certain which is the case is for each area to have a full time study team dedicated to the lions in their area...... and the only way to pay for that is for lion hunters to put their hands in their pockets.

As with most things in life, there are exceptions. There will still be times when an inappropriate lion simply has to be shot for other reasons but that would happen whether lion hunting was permitted or not.

Another exception might be where a pride holding lion or lions is/are just so old and stuffed up and there are challengers in the area where it's inevitable that the incomers are going to take over anyway....... in which event, I for one wouldn't have a problem with a hunter stepping in and taking a trophy.

It amazes me how much is still being spoken about Lion Age when the truth is that when that illusive blacked manned Lion walks into scope view the results are inevitable.

What the difference is is who shoots it be it a humble PH then his livelihood is put on the line be it a wealthy owner then all is forgotten even after the disputed Tooth Age

sidewinder,

Welcome to the forum.

The reason it tends to be a hot subject here is that most/all of us hope that lion hunting will continue into the next generation of hunters and if we don't do it right, then that probably won't happen.

Just an idea.

I think AR can do it's bit. AR has many members and the site is held in high esteem by the hunting industry. AR seemingly has lot of clout.

Then why not use it? For example could the members here use it as a tool when dealing with safari operators? What I am suggesting is it plausible for AR to protect and guide it's own and others who want to hunt Lion?

For example I want to hunt Lion and I contact Mark Young as an agent to hunt Tanzania? I then make all the negotiations and correspondence public. I will ask many questions (open to public debate?) - How many Lions over 6 were taken in the concession in the last two years? Can the agent/operator back this up with statistics, references and photographs.

If then I fail to take a trophy Lion then for what reason? Am I just a statistic? Did the gamble not pay off? I would publish a concise hunting report and ask the PH/operator and agent to do the same.

The hunting of free ranging cats is unpredictable and there are no guarantees but for example if the hunter did not see hide nor hair of his quarry and felt there was cause for complaint then could AR be the tool to help address the complaint?

Note the excuses come after the safari and not before. No rain, to much, to hot, to cold, friggin moon etc etc. This is not acceptable. This important information should be relayed to the hunter prior to the hunt as it does impact on the safari. Many who want to hunt Lion do not know what they are letting themselves in for and there are many factors that can influence a successful hunt.

As a freelance hunter I have guided some whereas the conditions were virtually impossible - end of season, hot, hoards of resident hunters, no bait animals etc. I have had clients plead with me to allow them to shoot young Lions with ample manes etc. It leaves a bitter taste in one's mouth and both the client and PH part feeling hard done by. That is not hunting that is a waste of time and hard earned cash.

If your policy is to slap a 6 year old plus policy on Lion or nothing then what incentives to you offer to the paying customer? Let us say this policy may result a one in five chance? Sure you could end up with a MGM cat, a trophy of a lifetime. On the other hand multiply $50k by 5. Personally if I felt the chances were slim or I took a lesser Lion to what was being advertised then surely the operators themselves should bear the financial brunt of this decision? That is if they are serious about protecting their Lions?

quote:

Originally posted by Tom In Tennessee:
Spotting scope showed no pink on the nose, he was alone and that he was a "damn big" Lion....weighted just over 240kg on skinning shed scales, green skull was over 26"....I shud have passed on him because a dentist had not pulled a tooth and properly aged him....

Sometimes the nose is covered in gore and you can quietly (and I stress very quietly) ask your PH to go and clean it up for you.

Ever wondered in a blind what use the towel was for?

In order to reduce lion infanticide through sport hunting which could be regarded as being among the main contributors to a growing decrease in population numbers as a result of having cropped the wrong lion, one cannot but over emphasize the need for pride holding males to be given due protection.

The age limitation requirement is far fetched (an opinion shared by many) - furthermore, to have to submit a skull for a dental x-ray and later be told it was too young by 6 months is BS. The only way a 'free ranging' lion can be identified with certainty as having an established age is the one that was either raised and released or identified as a cub from a pride and monitored over the years.

Shakari has already outlined the ways of harvesting a lion and lessening the possibilities of negative harvest as long as everyone sticks to the unspoken rule and any PH worth his salt will be able to make the proper call.
In addition, it might be well worth reducing the current quota to max. 2/3 lion per block according to the block's lion sustainability.

Suffice to say there is only one outfit in this neck of the woods as having a "pilot project" that is able to keep tabs on most of its resident lions and whose PHs can tell you which one qualifies, which one doesn't and which one is reserved

It is said to have untold reserves of readily available finance for such projects (and others) which most other outfitters do not have and which makes all the difference and, in a way, could possibly be regarded as aimed at creating a long-term self beneficial marketing situation.

Worthy to note however that Tanzania, in spite of being declared as having the highest lion population in Africa, has been singled out to take the brunt of this ongoing saga.
To the best of my knowledge it is the only African state that has limitations on Leopard, Elephant, Croc and Lion; that the female of any species may not be hunted (a gray area) is another subject altogether, though as sure as the brown stuff being tapered at both ends, lioness, tuskless ele and cow buffalo are most definitely not on permit.

With the way things are going it would seem that our neighbors (who are probably rubbing their hands and blessing Packer) will be the ones to ultimately benefit from a situation that is, IMO (and several others) being over played.

quote:

Post photos of the lion and teeth. Go one better, pull the tooth and send to Lane who will x-ray it and you can study the pulp cavity. This is all "post mortem" stuff but will help confirm your decision to take him.

Yes...I will x-ray the rudimentery pre-molar for anyone who sends to me free of charge.

A good reason to x-ray is to help onself learn...not necessarily to criticize the past.

quote:

Originally posted by 000sidewinder:
It amazes me how much is still being spoken about Lion Age when the truth is that when that illusive blacked manned Lion walks into scope view the results are inevitable.

What the difference is is who shoots it be it a humble PH then his livelihood is put on the line be it a wealthy owner then all is forgotten even after the disputed Tooth Age

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Post photos of the lion and teeth. Go one better, pull the tooth and send to Lane who will x-ray it and you can study the pulp cavity. This is all "post mortem" stuff but will help confirm your decision to take him.

I am sure this is what Dr Whyte is doing in a bid to narrow her "margin of error" when aging lions on the paw. That is what it boils down to. And this can't be done without research or science - and the money to pay for it!

KEEPING THE STATUS QUO IS WRONG AND AIN'T HELPING!

X-raying the tooth helps one to learn. It confirms or denies that ones criteria were good. It is NOT necessarily done to criticize the past but to brighten the future. Learning is a good thing.

quote:

narrow her "margin of error" when aging lions on the paw. That is what it boils down to.

Bwana,

Well said. This is what checking oneself is for. All the naysayers want to poo-poo and yaw-yaw x-raying the tooth with jokes about getting the dentist out before shooting.

$h!t guys...It is about learning more so one can "narrow the margin when aging on the paw!" That is the name of the game. Its about decision making on the NEXT lion.

P.S. Also...I agree with what Steve is saying about Pride Males.

One of and possibly the main reason in some of the hunting areas that Lion success is so low is that the discretion that PH’s have had in the past to judge the age of the Lions has been replaced by fear of being fired if the Tooth aging comes back negative.
That period of insecurity waiting to know the results has now created a “Let’s just not take the chance attitude” so subsequently Clients are going back home empty handed.

We all want lion hunting to continue for years but we all also what our PH’s to remain employed so another solution must be found.
I am still a adamant believer of a grading system on quality of the trophy being done. Grade the quality of the Lions taken and then adjust quota accordingly. This way the population is controlled by quality which will directly reflect on age if the criteria is correctly adhered to. Involve a broad spectrum of the shareholder to obtain the best results.

Right but then under that system one hunter early in a season shoots a pride male and then the quota is adjusted to zero. The rest of the booked hunters are out of luck.

quote:

Originally posted by 000sidewinder:
One of and possibly the main reason in some of the hunting areas that Lion success is so low is that the discretion that PH’s have had in the past to judge the age of the Lions has been replaced by fear of being fired if the Tooth aging comes back negative. so subsequently Clients are going back home empty handed.

Good...the rule is working!

We all want lion hunting to continue for years but we all also what our PH’s to remain employed so another solution must be found.
I am still a adamant believer of a grading system on quality of the trophy being done. Grade the quality of the Lions taken and then adjust quota accordingly. This way the population is controlled by quality which will directly reflect on age if the criteria is correctly adhered to.

And if its not? Fire the PH???

Involve a broad spectrum of the shareholder to obtain the best results.

The bottom line is that rules must be set...adhered too...and...if not...penalties must ensue.

It doesn't do much good to make a law that is impossible to enforce. If a law is made that you cannot shoot a pride lion can it be enforced? The obvious one to call foul will be the game scout or possibly an unhappy tracker. Offer the average game scout $2,000 US to keep his mouth shut and what are the odds that he will refuse and report the violation?

Here is another option for managing lion populations. Set the block quota on male lions at a very conservative level. Let us say it is four. After the season, age the four lions using the x-ray technique. Use only the teeth from the right side of the jaw (this will eliminate both pre-molars being reported from the same old lion). If one of the four lions was under the mandatory age limit reduce the following years quota by two lions. If two are under the age limit, eliminate the total quota of four.

This will take the burden off of the client and put the pressure on to the Safari Operator.


465H&H

Some of you blokes seem th be fixated on the age thing and (IMO) it's NOWHERE near as important as pride holding status.

I feel that pride-holding status is incredibly important and the major potential problem that affects pride dynamics and ultimately conservation of lions due to their inherent infanticide problem after a pride-holder has been overthrown. It is stable prides which are needed, and when a stable pride male is killed, that is when things can start to go downhill for that pride or at least put them a few steps back. Stopping pride holders from being shot is probably going to be something very hard to enforce in hunting I feel. If there are lionesses present, then with almost certainty the male would be a pride-holder. However, just because there are no lionesses present, does not mean a male lion is not a pride-holder by any means. If the PH can actually recognise specific lions as pride-holders then great, but then to have to tell a very excited client not to shoot a trophy because he thinks or knows it is a pride-holder is probably going to be difficult to say the least.

No-one said it'd be easy or cheap but I don't see any other way of doing the job properly.

But I'm helluva glad someone appreciates my point..... thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
No-one said it'd be easy or cheap but I don't see any other way of doing the job properly.

But I'm helluva glad someone appreciates my point..... thanks!

Didn't you see my P.S. above Steve???

Steve, I have found you always have a point even tho some of your posts are pointless....

465H&H - your proposal is actually in practice in Moz in the Niassa coutada's. It makes a lot of sense and is definetely a good STARTING POINT! That is what is needed, a STARTING POINT to buil upon. Right now, there is nothing in place other than ones' individual's view of ethics.. We all agree that can't work!

Actually, there is a good correlation between age and pride males. Generally, the older the lion over 6, the more likely that lion is no longer holding a pride!

If we cannot - a this time in the process of sustainable lion hunting - determine with certainty all the "pride males" in an area, then the next level down is to look at whether a male which is part of a pride currently holds pregnant or lactating females, cubs, young or sub-adults in the pride. If the answer is yes, then the obvious choice is to pass, irrespective of its estimated age. If the answer is no, and the age estimation is 6+, taking it would have a lessened effect on the population of lions in that area.

Remember, we are aiming at REDUCING the margin of error substantially and not ELIMINATING the error entirely at this early stage of lion conservation!

I guess what I am suggesting is a phased approach to sustainable lion hunting starting with a minimal age threshold (say 5 - 6 years old) in addition to no pregnant/lactating females, cubs or young within the pride criteria. The latter is practically uncontrollable in todays' scenario without the voluntary participation of PHs and operators to self-police themselves and their peers. A job for the Ph associations???

Packer claims that over 50% of the lion taken by hunters every year are obviously under 5 years old! In Tz alone that means an average of 100 lion a year! I believe him and that is the first thing we should focus on addressing. An age limit with an independent veryfying comittee working on post mortem evidence metting out a series of penalties, etc should be able to achieve this quickly.

Yes, the success rates will drop to under 30% on lion. Sorry Andrew, but there will be a lot of refunds in your case just kidding of course...

Lane,

Sorry buddy I missed it but am now doubly glad. Thanks!

Tom,

Thanks...... I think!

Bwanamich,

I certainly wouldn't disbelieve Dr Packer but how would he know that over 50% of the lion taken by hunters every year are obviously under 5 years old?

Even if he looked at 10% of the lions taken and extrapolated that would still mean he'd have to have access to a fair number of trophies or at least teeth and I'd have thought the practicalities of that would make it less than easy to say the least.

For that matter, does he mean in Tanzania alone or is he talking Africa wide?

I agree we do have to do something but I think whatever we do has to be the right thing and I'm concerned that too much focus is being put onto age alone to the detriment of other factors such as pride holding status.

I'll add that both Dr Packer and your good self have forgotten more about lions than I'll ever know!

John the evaluation of trophies is done at the end of the season so outfitters would know by the new season what their quota would be not during the season so hunters are then left short changed.

This was done in the late 70 in the then Rhodesia in the Matetsi area to control the age of Lions being shot. That was three decades ago and we are still hunting Lion and taking good trophies.

BwanaMitch,
Inevitable in a pride over two lionesses’ situation there is normally always a lioness that is pregnant, stage of the pregnancy of course is the issue. But if that Lion is shot then that pregnant lioness gives birth the new Lion is going to kill those cubs that we all know. So how do you control that?

Steve,
I think CP was talking of Tanzania as that is where most of his work and travels take him. As far as how did he assess this? Simply from photos on websites and brochures. There is no mistaking a 3 or 4 year old male lion for anything but a young male

Sidewinder,
"Remember, we are aiming at REDUCING the margin of error substantially and not ELIMINATING the error entirely at this early stage of lion conservation!"

If we can start by ensuring that more than 50% of male lion taken in Tz (rather than LESS than 50% using CP statement)we have alrerady taken action to REDUCE the problem. From here we can build upon once a more structured, practical and viable regulatory process has been devised.

Here is another scenario: A pride has 3 adult males with multiple females in it and a few cubs and young. You shoot the oldest male (6+ of course ). What happens to the pride dymanics?

BwanaMich

Without meaning to criticise CP, I've gotta say mate that if he's basing his statement just on what he sees in brochures and websites, I don't reckon his that's anywhere near an accurate assessment.

As far as age alone is concerned, perhaps they need to make it compulsory that a tooth be pulled and x-rayed. At least that'd be a start.

Packer also considers fencing off the national parks in East Africa as a solution to the human/lion conflict.

An excerpt from the National Geographic Adventure Blog. http://ngadventure.typepad.com/blog/li.html

"Packer thanks George right off for his work and his book, The Serengeti Lion, which was nominated for a National Book Award. "George's work made people realize that predators were not a threat to the system. That predators, in fact, were healthy for the system." But, since that time, there's been a lot of bad news.

"It's one thing to have a gorilla come into your garden and pull up some celery, it's another to have a lion come into your bedroom and kill you in your sleep." Yikes. Apparently there is a lot of human lion conflict raging nowadays in Africa.

This is especially true around Tarangire National Park, in Tanzania, where lions travel far outside the park boundaries during the dry season and into villages. There's been a 20 percent decline in the lion population in less than five years (about 40 animals killed by humans, from the looks of the graph, in that time).

Craig Packer is now detailing human-lion conflict, which in parts of Tanzania is brutal. There are places, near the parks, usually, where there has been an average of one attack every month for the past 15 years.

The retaliation for attacks, both on humans and livestock, are extreme. Packer tells the grisly story of a husband poisoning his wife's half eaten body to kill the lions that killed her. Another problem is children/teenagers tending herds--lions can tell the difference between a child and an adult.

Hope for the future: Trophy hunting could be reformed, restricted.

There are real problems in East Africa with China, including a lot of illegal timber exports. There's also the unfortunate realization that the Chinese are replacing tiger medicines with lions. So there's a lot of demand on the illegal trade.

"The reason I've been focusing on Tanzania is that it's the last large population--it's really the last holdout for the lion." (Besides Kruger, which is fenced, and Okavango, which is also fenced...but Tanzania isn't.) "Is it time to think about fencing East Africa parks?" Packer concludes; now questions from the audience.

Packer continues on recommendations for trophy hunting. There are too many young male lions being hunted and killed. "You're setting up a system with so much instability by killing young males--there's no chance for offspring to survive. As populations are declining, the hunting companies are catering to a market that almost guarantees a kill. We're trying to get the countries to inspect kills and institute age limits."

"The problem with the hunting industry is that there's no oversight. They just want to run it themselves. There's a lot of insecurity in the hunting industry--it's very short term, high exploitation, and few concerns about the long term. If there was a system in which people had more incentive to invest over the long term, it could become a positive."

quote:

Originally posted by 000sidewinder:
John the evaluation of trophies is done at the end of the season so outfitters would know by the new season what their quota would be not during the season so hunters are then left short changed.

This was done in the late 70 in the then Rhodesia in the Matetsi area to control the age of Lions being shot. That was three decades ago and we are still hunting Lion and taking good trophies.

000,

You did not answer my question about penalties above???

quote:

Without meaning to criticise CP, I've gotta say mate that if he's basing his statement just on what he sees in brochures and websites, I don't reckon his that's anywhere near an accurate assessment.

Steve,
Most company's have web-sites. On those web-sites...they post the last season harvest. It is actually probably a good way to monitor.

Do you think they are gonna NOT post a an old MGM male if they shot one???

Nope!

Lane,

I think there's a lot of holes in the plan.....

Firstly, yes, some clients don't want and don't allow their trophies to be photographed.

Secondly, it's not impossible for a good photoshopper to change the appearance of a trophy.

Thirdly, some pics on some websites may have not been taken in the year claimed. (believe me, it happens)

There's also several other scenarios that could skew the opinions/results etc.

As I see it, if age is to be the criteria (and as you know, I think it should only be one of several) then the only way to do it properly is to make it compulsory to pull the appropriate tooth and send it to someone such as yourself for x-ray.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Lane,

I think there's a lot of holes in the plan.....

Firstly, yes, some clients don't want and don't allow their trophies to be photographed.

Secondly, it's not impossible for a good photoshopper to change the appearance of a trophy.

Thirdly, some pics on some websites may have not been taken in the year claimed. (believe me, it happens)

There's also several other scenarios that could skew the opinions/results etc.

As I see it, if age is to be the criteria (and as you know, I think it should only be one of several) then the only way to do it properly is to make it compulsory to pull the appropriate tooth and send it to someone such as yourself for x-ray.

Steve,

I agree with all you say.

But...one would think...that they (the Safari Companies) would skew to make them look good...NOT bad.

So...I still see it as a viable option for monitoring. If anything...it would skew the statistics in the favor of the companies...NOT...against them.

Lane,

Buddy, I didn't suggest which way it would skew the figures just that it would make them inaccurate and as with all figures, if they're not accurate, they're no bloody use.

You also need to bear in mind, it's not just the outfitters that are involved, it's also the agents and as we all know there are all kinds of agents from highly professional ones to ones that have one hunt with a company and suddenly they're an instant agent....... no damn use to man nor beast but nevertheless, they do call themselves agents and they can and almost certainly do have websites.

I still think that age shouldn't be anywhere near the be all and end all of this but if age is to be the deciding criteria, I think the outfitter MUST be required by law to send that tooth in to the appropriate experts........ and even that has it's problems because the teeth will either need to be x-rayed in country or special arrangements and permissions will (presumably) have to be made/granted to send untreated animal parts overseas.

You'd know a hell of a lot more about that than I would though.

quote:

Buddy, I didn't suggest which way it would skew the figures just that it would make them inaccurate and as with all figures, if they're not accurate, they're no bloody use.

Steve,

My friend. You are not correct here. As much as I distrust CP to help the hunting industry...I have to give the devil his due. He is a D@^^^^ Good researcher.

In his mind...he does not care if it were skewed in the favor of the lions (which I & he are sure it is not).

IE: When you see every web-site with only old males on it...you will see him quit using it as a method of monitoring as it will mean either 1) the companies have caught on or 2) they are only taking old lions.

But you can rest assured...that when young lions are cropping up on websites that they ARE PROBABLY being shot.

As I doubt that very few folks go in photo-shop in a pink-nose; spots in the coat on the hind-legs, and an immature mane.

I bet you Bwanamich will agree with me here.

I did NOT say it was highly accurate...just a GOOD way of monitoring.

quote:

I still think that age shouldn't be anywhere near the be all and end all of this but if age is to be the deciding criteria, I think the outfitter MUST be required by law to send that tooth in to the appropriate experts........ and even that has it's problems because the teeth will either need to be x-rayed in country or special arrangements and permissions will (presumably) have to be made/granted to send untreated animal parts overseas.

Either way...getting the x-ray is fairly easily done.

The tooth can be x-ray after shipping the trophies to the states. Or as many companies already do...x-ray in country.

Lane,

I haven't always agreed with everything he says but I do agree with you that he's an excellent researcher....... but I have my doubts that anyone can make accurate assessments or derive any meaningful figures from only looking at trophy pictures on websites.

Of course, it could be that he's also getting info from other sources and that would be a very different matter but I'm afraid I wouldn't put much faith in any information or figures derived from trophy pics on hunting websites alone.

Very glad and surprised to hear the tooth x-ray is easily done and that would certainly make things a lot easier.

quote:

or derive any meaningful figures from only looking at trophy pictures on websites.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. As I see it's merit as a means of monitoring.

quote:

Very glad and surprised to hear the tooth x-ray is easily done and that would certainly make things a lot easier.

It takes me all of 5 min. As I have always said...anyone who wants a tooth x-rayed in U.S....just send it to me. Done! Free of charge. Those images CANNOT be altered if in DICOM format and can be viewed anywhere there is internet.

But...as I have said already...the companies in Tanzania that I communicate with...are already doing in-country.

I do x-ray a few each year just for folks who want to know.

OK, thanks for the interesting info...... can any dentist or vet do that with a tooth and as a matter of interest, does the tooth have to be removed from the skull to do it?

The reason I ask is that I have an old tigeress skull here and it'd be interesting to know how old the animal was when it was shot.

Obviously can't send it overseas though!