I suspect this item has been well discussed here in the past but I'm new here soooo, here goes. I've always used solids on buffalo but after reading Ian Nyschens book (Months of the Sun)I'm now wondering about that decision. He states that he was never sure of stopping a buffalo charge when using solids but that when he switched to softs he was completely confident. Pondoro also used softs for following wounded buffalo. Their theory was that the soft created a larger wound channel and more secondary missles thus a better chance of hitting the brain than with a solid. Any one here with any experience along these lines.

CHEERS!
465H&H

In a .416 it is hard to beat a 400 gr Swift A Frame

I cannot understand why anyone would use a soft to stand a Buffalo or Elephant charge...That is inexperience or a lack of intelligent thinking...I have seen too much evidence of softs failing and have watched them fail on the hard bone, teeth, and horn of buffalo and slidding off to one side with a head on chest shot...perhaps a Monolithic HP but even then I want solids...

I want a flat nose solid or a cup point for all my buffalo shooting, to start with I want 2 holes not 1, that leaves blood waist high on the grass.

If I hunted herds in Zimbabwe then I would use a soft on top followed by solids, maybe, but better to just let them mill around until the shot is clear and use a solid...

I could just use a cup point from Northfork and be completely satisfied...or one of saeed bullets, they both perform about the same.

I'll save my soft point bullets for plainsgame, Lion, Leopard.

Ray

I sgree that anyone who would knowingly use a soft point on a charging elephant should be certified and put away. The question was about buffalo. Both Nyschens and J. Taylor had more experience that both of us combined and I don't think either was on the low end of the IQ scale. I see Nyschens has an article in the latest African Hunter if it the same person and still alive maybe Ganyana can get him to expond on his thoughts on this subject.

A solid that hits the teeth is also unlikely to reach the brain unless it is fired from ground level, nor a solid that hits the boss unless the head is at ground level. I suspect a heavy well constructed soft would do the same. I also think it is too late to worry about a blood trail on the grass when the buff is charging.

I'll hedge my bets though and continue to load solids.

I don't even pack softs for the trip, so the decision is pretty easy for me...

A soft has a couple of disadvantages for a buffalo charge. First, it is not too likely that the soft will make it through a buffalo skull to the brain without deflecting. If the shot requires the bullet to run along a jawbone through a row of teeth, then just kiss that soft goodbye.

On a frontal chest shot, some softs open up quickly and lose stability, causing them to veer off around the side of the rib cage rather than going inside.

However, I do agree that once inside the lungs, a soft does better than a solid. The question is, will it ever reach the lungs?

Some of those old timers made some strange statements that just are not applicable today...Bell said the .308 is the perfect elephant rifle, Taylor said the 10.75x68 was worthless and he was right, but the bullets were bad, not the caliber, he should have known that and perhaps he did, but what they say has no profound effect on my opinnion, although I certainly take notice of what they say...

I have found that many well known PHs today don't know squat about guns or balistics although they may have shot more buffalo than you can count, and they may be great PHs, thats not the point, How much they know about hunting is important, how much they know about balistics is secondary, some do and some down't.....

I have shot over a hundred buffalo and that should qualify me to have an opinnion on the subject at hand, and if someone has shot a 1000 head, I still feel like they probably about had it figured out by the time they shot 50 or so.....

I agree with 500 who basically feels the same way I do about the subject, but again thats just our opinnion, and anyone who wants to stand a charge with a soft on buffalo then that is exactly what they should do...

As to teeth, they are extremely hard and will split any soft in half, I have one that did exactly that, half went out the jaw and back into the shoulder about 4 to 6 inches under the skin, the other half went directly down the gullet, enraged the bull and he came for us..My .404 solid stopped him at less than 10 yards after penitrating the brain and lodging about two vertabries behind it...I have seen many a soft bust out a cone of horn and not anything more on two ocassions..I have seen a soft from a 375 and another from a factory .458 slide down the off side of the rib cage under the shoulder from a perfect chest shot..a solid would have gone out his butt IMO....

I again make no claim to the last word of any of these statements, but they have certainly left me with an opinnion, and in these instances nothingis written in stone and someday I may change my mind, but not likely pilgrim....

If the first soft doesn't do it, then rely on solids for everything after.

I met Craig Boddington at SCI. He gave a seminar on cartridges for African Game.

He said that solids are "passé". He mentioned that super premium bullets (TBBCs, A-Frames, Barnes X) have more than enough penetrating abilities and then some and that he no longer suggests solids unless the hunter's PH strongly insists on them. This goes against his writings in his Safari Rifles book, but is his latest opinion. He even mentioned that in herd situations you gotta watch out because many of these super premium softs will go right through!

Thought I'd share- now to hide behind the sofa

I would guess that Boddington's suggestion on softs vs. solids takes into consideration the fact that 99.9% of the time, buffalo don't charge (given an experienced PH). He also knows that 99.9% of the time the PH is there to sort it out quickly if the buff even looks like he is coming for you.

I would guess that a great many buffalo hunters shoot their buffalo with some sort of soft, and the buffalo takes off. We can all dream of standing our ground to a charging buffalo and putting a stop to it. In reality, however, it most likely won't happen.

As for me, I like to plan for that .1% and load 1 premium soft, followed by solids.

Tim

I used to take some solids with me for follow up shots on buffalo before good bullets came on the market.

Trophy Bonded Bear Claws and Barnes X have changed all that.

Now we use our own Walterhog bullets, and never bother about anything else.

These bullets will penetrate a buffalo from one end to the other.

And just like the Barnes X, I have shot several buffalo in the head with them. And have recovered at least one bullet from the rear end of a buffalo bull shot in the head.

If the shot is at a slight angle, the bullet excits the buffalo somewhere in his body.

I have absolutely no problems facing a charging buffalo with any of the above mentioned bullets.

Personally, I would not use any of the normal SP on buffalo - or on any other game if given a choice.

Saeed,

Amen! The last couple of PH's I hunted with tolds me they would just as soon see me not even have a solid in the magazine while hunting buffalo and no these were not young inexperienced guys. They believed the TBBC, X etc. were more than adequate for the job.

Regards,

Mark

FWIW, I had two Trophy Bonded Bear Claws that wouldn't penetrate all the way through a Giraffe shoulder or neck from my 458 Lott. That particular load is a 500 gr. TBBC @ 2320 fps. The first shot was at approximately 75 yards and the second shot was at approximately 100 yards.

Saeed!

Where can I see some of your bullets?

CHEERS!
465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Saeed!

Where can I see some of your bullets?

CHEERS!
465H&H

Each time I mention our Walterhog bullets, I get a few people asking on how to buy them.

I am afraid we do not make them for sale, just for our own use.

OK, now the "greenie" chimes in.

Here's what I'm getting from all of this:

1) Can't go wrong with solids, esp. flat-nosed.
2) Barnes "X"s are also viable options.

After those 2 it's anybody's guess and the dialog goes south from there.

This discussion is paralled in the precision shooting community - as soon as an experienced "old Hand" says that Sierra Match Kings are the best overall bullets for LR shooting...Here comes the judge, so to speak and everybody else has the "latest greatest".

I'm going over in June for the first time and I'm going with Barnes solids and "X" bullets.

For the record the new "XBT" has a BC (.555 ) that whoops anything in it's class for 300 gr. .375.

Not a big factor for BUFF, but accuracy and trajectory greatly matter when that SCI Sable is standing 350yds out!

I'm out for the best of both worlds - huge hitting power and accuracy!

I'll stop there and get to the hunting!

Jeff

Use a soft and you get one hole and nose blood in high grass, use a flat nose solid, a Walter hog, a cuppoint and you get two holes and blood spewing out both sides waist high and waist high blood is easy to follow as you look straight ahead for the bull, nose blood drips on the ground and you have to bend over and peek for it while you move forward. Now I ask you which would you rather follow in 5 to 10 ft. grass? or even in the low veldt.

If you feel a soft is best for you, then by all means use them..I will continue to use the above mentioned solid or simi solid bullets only...

Just because some PH says a soft is best doesn't mean thats written in stone, its only his opinnion and I can introduce you to some very experienced that will tell you only a solid can be depended on, so there ya go...

I have seen a lot of softs fail, including a woodleigh, a Swift, several Barnes X bullets and many factory bullets..Have never seen a solid fail except on elephant from time to time, and havn't seen that in a number of years since monomental bullets came into being...

In the double rifles I always liked a soft for the first shot, solid in the other barrel, then all solids if needed. Worked well for me. If situation warranted it I could use the solid first, dump the soft and empty and reload with two solids.

If you are using a 300gr TSX in that 375 I think you'll do just fine and will likely not need any solids. Bullet placement is always the most important thing when shooting game, and doubly so on buffalo. Hit him right with the first shot and there won't be much trailing to worry about.
I helped a good friend prepare for his Tanzania safari last summer. He was shooting a 450 Dakota with various softs and solids. We finally settled on the 450gr NF soft point and some 500gr Woodleigh solids for his use on buffalo. He collected three very nice buffalo with the NF softs, only one moved away from the spot after taking the initial bullet. That one traveled about 100yds total and received one more NF before crumpling up. All shots went into the chest/shoulder region, none were CNS placements.
Everyone has their pet theory about what works best. I have mine and that's to use a good soft point like the NF or a TSX and be precise about the shot placement or just don't shoot.

I've always carried my bolt rifles with a soft on top, followed by all solids, and my double rifles with a soft in the right barrel, and a solid in the left barrel, when hunting buffalo! Once, however, I find the proper load for the North Fork cup point in my rifles, I will use it for all shooting in Africa. The NF cup point, because of it's design, and material, is the only mono-metel bullet that is safe in all double rifles, IMO. It is the best of both worlds, soft, and solid. It expands, but doesn't loose any weight, and drives home in anything, bone, hide or meat! Ray tested these on Buffalo in Tanzania, and his findings are good enough for me!

On my one and only Buffalo last year I used a .416 Remington with 370 grain soft North Fork for the first shot and a flat point North Fork solid for my second shot with perfect results. The Soft racked him from last rib to first rib where it attachs to his neck through everything he had, still retaining 99.2% of it's weight. The solid blew through a shoulder and out the lung and a rib putting him on the ground for good. If and when I go back I shall use the same combo. Good shooting.

I have shot many buffalo with the Northfork softs along with about all the plainsgame from duiker to Eland...They certainly can be depended on to do the exact same thing every darn time, the simple clone the last one, never any variation, perfect mushrooms in lungs or even spine..amazing bullets...they typically stop on the off side skin of any animal and they open up fully on contact..

The only absolutly instant electricution type kill I ever had on a Buffalo was with a Northfork soft in a .416 Rem. at 225 yards in the shoulder and he hit the ground and never moved a muscle. he tipped over frontwards and AJ Van Heerden named him the Teapot Buffalo, as he tipped over and poured out according to AJ... That is very unusual..

That said, and I don't condone the use of softs, I will continue to use Cup points and flat nose solids unless Saeed sends me a supply of Walter Hog bullets which after they blow off the end are about the same as a flat nose solid as you can see, they are a good bullet for sure...

I think John S is correct in everyone having his own theory and that theory of course is based on personal experience. The first 4 buffalo I shot were all shot with solids at the insistence of the PH. All 4 looked like Swiss cheese at the end of the day. One Particular bull had 14 holes in him in a 360 degree arch if you count all the entance and exit wounds and yes the bullets where in the right place. The next 2 went down quite easily with one soft point each. The second I will admit to shooting an insurance shot into from the rear with a solid. None of this really proves anything but I now personally always hunt buffalo with a soft point up the pipe.

A couple more things! My personal experience was that solids left a poor blood trail and softs caused actual spraying out of bullet wounds, nose and mouth. Also I would think it a good idea to let the trackers track the buffalo and for the hunters to be looking for the actual perhaps wounded animal.

I still have some Bridger solids for 416 perhaps I'll try those next year but as a follow up only.

Regards,

Mark

Ray,
What were you doing shooting at a buffalo from 225yds?
Seriously, that instant shocked to death experience you recounted is exactly what my friend witnessed on two of his buffalo this past summer. The only "problem" I have with those bullets is their typical failure of producing two holes. The Barnes X solves this, and if it or the NF cup point can produce the same effect on the buffalo while making a hole on both sides it has to be the best way to go.

Mark,
I agree totally with you regarding your "a couple of more things" comments. My sentiments exactly.

with my 700 i had 1 soft and 1 solid my softs are so friggin huge it wondt matter anyways im shooting twice the bullet most people are and the chances of a 1000 grain soft point deflecting are slim to none.

i would never use a soft on elephant how ever solids all the way.

465 since you asked.

Spoke with Ian Nychens this morning. Ian always goes for a chest shot first and keeps a solid in the left barrel for just-in-case. He says he has never needed the left barrel since he started using softs for openers. The double advantage

When I started on the buffalo erradication in Matebeleland in the early '80's I had a choice of 30+ year old Kynoch solids or modern RWS TUG softs. After two hang fires with the kynoch ammo (one of which was on a cull, and I had already half opened the bolt when the round went off...I still shiver thinking about it and a Browning High power 9mm is not an effective buff rifle substitute) I switched to using the RWS exclusively. Being a government man I had the joy of following up any wounded animals that got away and had a couple of charges at close range (you have been out to Nyamandlouvu and know what that mopane scrub is like - you often cannot see a buff until it is within 10 paces) I sorted out both very close range charges with a brain shot. Those TUG's lost alot of metal - all the front section - but the rear made it right through the skulland I dug the bullets out of the necks

Those charges that occured at slightly longer range, I put a bullet in the chest and reloaded in case of further need. Not needed- the tugs reached the spine or heart quite adequately thank you.

Many of the older hands (who could issue themselves the .404's) were very happy with the old style RWS solids in that cal. The bullets were very soft and the jackets usually split open making a slow expanding soft. They were horrible for elephant!

These days I use Stuart flat nosed softs for buff if I am hunting alone. When backing a client I will load solids since I am most likely to need a "going away" shot to reach the vitals rather than a "comming towards" one.

Long ago bought myself a lovely .404- but have never shot anything with it! ( must be good clients who don't need backing up )