I just watched a few buffalo hunting videos the last few days and it seems to me the PH's are getting in more shooting than the clients. Is that normal?
I can understand a PH backing up a client when a bad shot is made but for me personally I do not want my PH to shoot my buff unless I am going to get run over or he can visably see i made a bad shot. It just seems like a lot of the PH's I saw on the videos would shoot a split second after a client. If it were me I would be pissed.

Who was the ph in the video? There are some that are known for "letting the Buffalo choose its death".

I'd be pissed too. Something to talk over with your prospective PH and outfitter before you sign the contract maybe?

This is an old question that will continue to raise its head for many years to come.

The bottom line is simply that videos very seldom show the pre hunt planning between the client and the PH. We have had clients that have insisted on back up shots and others who insist on no back up shots. A good PH will discuss all of this beforehand and ultimately will know instinctively when to put a back up shot in. Ultimately its the client paying the money so their wishes should be respected, but its the PH who looks after the clients safety and wellbeing so their decisions should also be respected.

Trust your PH to make the right call. If you dont trust him, you probably shouldnt be hunting with him.

Most of the PH's here Zambia don't even discuss the option of back up shots with our clients. It is their hunt and we let them get on with it.

Follow ups are different and there has to be some discussion regarding the PH's involvement. In critical conditions the PH will step in, discussion or not.

All too many clients put the PH in charge and often ignore their own instincts or wants. I am a great believer in getting the client more involved and taking on many of the responsibilities, the same responsibilities they employ when they hunt at home. A husband or father conducting a hunt for his wife or child is far more pleasurable and rewarding than me pulling his loved ones around the bush by the neck of their T shirt.

We are there to guide you not to do your hunting.

I always discuss what I want on the first day in camp. With PH.
To place it blunt I will not pay. As I know what I want from a hunt.
Safety and injured game are first 2 on the list.

Fairgame love your style. You summed it up.

Regards Mark

If i may raise a question (no fights please).

When does a client feel his life is in danger when hunting Buff or any of the Big 5? Some will argue until the animal is dead, some will claim up to 20 yards or even 5 yards...wouldn't it be in some cases to late to back up a shot from the PH?...

quote:

Originally posted by cameronaussie:
As I know what I want from a hunt.
Safety and injured game are first 2 on the list.

.

Regards Mark

Mark,

I'm sure something was lost in translation here....

K

Trust your PH to make the right call. If you dont trust him, you probably shouldnt be hunting with him.[/QUOTE]

I think ZimFrosty summned it up pretty good.

I plan to let my PH know i dont want him to shoot unless he feels its needed. If so, feel free to blast away!!!

What I always get a kick out of, even while the animal wheels and charges off into the bush, is the client working the bolt slowly and carefully extracting the spent brass and putting it in his pocket as if he was on the range. A $40,000.00 safari and the guy saves a $2.00 piece of brass.

I guess that comes from reloading practices and not from practicing with the realization that a wounded buffalo is quite capable getting away, or in the worse case, of pounding your bottom into jelly.

Next few time you watch an African television show, I'll bet you'll see what I'm talking about half the time, or so.

don't form any opinions on what you see on TV 90% is

Have the discussion with your PH on the first day. I usually tell them I don't want them shooting my animals but if they feel that things are going south, use their own judgment. Safety has to be the first consideration and you can sort out hurt feelings later.

Agree with the Judge,, also you will see the client short storke the bolt like he has been shooting a 22 rimfire and not be able to rechamber a round without a lot of work.. Obvious not enough time with the rifle he needs to be in perfect sync with.

Ivan Carter is absolutely the best at negotiating follow-up shots under pressure!

Once we shot a a big Buff at about 100 or so yards with my .600 Westley. I botched the shot which hit about 6" too low on the shoulder, thus breaking his left leg...He was winged pretty good, but was making a hasty getaway...Ivan looked at me and asked "may I"..."Hell-Yeah" was my response and after a good chase at nearly a full run, Ivan got to him first, anchored him and I came in panting like a fat old Labrador to deliver the coup de gras!

I was pouting pretty good after that one, but my trusty PH was both professional and deadly in his marksmanship...I got over it quickly!

...That, IMHO is how it should go.

Just for the record, I never have had issue with a PH backing me if I in fact muffed a shot. It's happend to me only twice, but am grateful that my PH had the common sense to do what needed to be done!

Now I realize that "us mortals" do need back up from time to time, but that scenario sure beats losing game / getting stomped over something as silly as foolish pride!!!

Talk to your PH and make it clear that you'd like to go it alone, but also let him know that in a pinch - throw some lead - the more the merrier!!!

JW

Phil, do you discuss with your waterfowl clients whether or not you and your staff will also be shooting?

What Jeff said

+ 2 for Mr. Wemmer. He has it right.

I always try to discuss this with clients right away. I dont care to shoot their game for them. I also dont care for leaving a wounded buffalo in the bush to A) die a lingering death, B) possibly attack someone else in the area a few days later (an immediate charge is not the only time a buffalo is dangerous)

Some clients welcome the help... some are adamant againts it. most are somewhere in the middle. I had a guy request I do not shoot (unless a real charge) but when the wounded bull got away, later whined about paying for a trophy he does not have! some guys think the trackers are so good no animal can ever get away wounded. They are good, but not infalible.

I think the absolute refusal to allow a follow up shot is dangerous. The facts of the matter are that all of us will blow a shot from time to time no matter how good or how bad we are. The last thing in the world that I want to do is put someone in life threatening danger (conceivably even some unsuspecting villager) or let the animal suffer needlessly . I think one is wise to trust the PH. If they think they need to shoot, I am going to tell them to have at it.

I would like to relay a recent story with no names. A client was elephant hunting with a very well known, well respected PH in a well known area for elephant. The client was not in the best of physical condition. On the last day of the hunt, the hunting gods presented a gift of a decent elephant bull that the client could actually walk to. The client wanted no back up. The client shot the bull and hit it. He was a little slow on the bolt. The PH is standing there with a double in his hand with a broad side shot at 25 yards. By the time the client recycled the bolt and brought the gun back to his shoulder, the bull in question had gotten mixed into a herd. It was last seen disappearing into another country. The final straw was that the PH now believes the client shot with a soft point! The elephant was lost. The elephant suffered. The client was out the trophy fee. Should the PH have shot? I think so.

Phil AKA I understand now what agents do,

As others have said this is your safari and the PH does not want to shoot your game but it should be his decision as to when he is to step in. The PH has a much better idea of when it is appropriate for him to shoot than you as a client will. I think as most do that the PH should shoot only if he is sure you have wounded the animal in a way that is not immediately lethal or if he thinks you may get splatted or chewed unless you've discussed another scenario with him.

In 14 safaris I've had the PH raise his rifle three times. Once Garry kelly asked me if he could shoot if my Bots ele did not go down or tried to get up once knocked down by me from a brain shot. I agreed and the bull did try to get up and everybody shot. Seemed the prudent thing to do. A couple of years ago I was having a bad time with an eland and Neil Duckworth asked if he could shoot if we jumped the wounded eland. My answer was "please do" and he did spine the eland when we found it. Once in the Bangweulu I made a killing shot on a sitatunga but we were not sure of the hit so we immediately plowed into the 8 foot grass to see if we could find it. The sitatunga stayed just ahead of us for about 5 minutes and it finally died but I told Arthur Taylor to please shoot it if he saw it before I did and he did fire one shot but missed. So you can see that back up shots by the PH are the exception rather than the rule and actually quite rare.

Mark

Amen about all of us occasionally blowing a shot. That goes for PHs also!
If that were not true, the PH would almost always need only one round for his rifle (excluding possible stalk and shoot of more than one animal).

+3 for Jeff's comments, and +1 for TANZ-PH'S as well.

I figured this would bring on a few thoughts and I believe the same as most of you on this subject. If my animal is wounded or shot badly on the initial shot I have no problem with a PH stepping in to help out.
My questions were based on what I saw on a few videos. Most notibly the bodington videos as well as a couple others. It seems like the PH was shooting as if it was his buffalo in most cases it seems.
I am glad to hear this is not always the case and it is wise to talk to a PH about things before hand.
As one guy did state i did notice how slow or non existent some guys were with their own follo up shots. I like to keep shooting till they are not twitching myself and have no problem pulling the trigger. Kind of reminded me of Aaron Neilson Video I watched today on his lion and giaffes he pounded on. Those were done correctly for sure!!

Funny or not so funny story...we were sitting around table eating in EC with a well known Safari Co and their hunters who are well known in the states for their videos. My friend Kruger and I were there because he knew his fellow Afrikanner and he had helped us find a tiny ones hunt. The conversation came to a point when all agreed to shoot and keep shooting til "it" was down---no DG involved. Next day, I hit an Oribi a little far back, asked if I should shoot it again, No, it is going down which it did 400yds or so away in thick grass the Oribi like....three hours and a hired tracking Jack Russel got me my Oribi!
SHOOT TIL IT IS DOWN DOWN!!!

I have had a PH help out on 3 occasions, none of which I have any concern about. One was my first african animal, where I had screwed up badly, partly due to hearing problems, but also due to being a first timer, I am sure. I put the first shot on a buffalo a little too far back, and then on my follow up shot, I shot it in the wrong end. My PH then proceeded to put one round in the head, and stop the buff from getting in some nasty Mopane scrub. That buff would have charged if we would have let it get in the thick stuff and gotten too close too quickly, although I think it was dead if we waited an hour or two from the first shot. This was a fully justified back up in my view, as someone could well have gotten hurt, most likely one of the trackers.

The second case was with a buff that was in his death run but headed over the concession boundary. I emptied my rifle into it, as did Alister, but he just made it across the river, and as a result we had to spend the next 2 hours getting a ranger to accompany us across the concession. We were Lion hunting, so the wasted time affected getting on the baits, so while not strictly needed, I understood why the shots were made, and had no problems with it.

The last was with my Brown bear, and that guy got within 5 feet of my guide (or was it the guide got within 5 feet of the bear?) before he shot, so I can say he was fully justified as well.

In short, I am saying that I have hunted with a few different guides and PH's. I have made more than my fair share of bad shots. Not once has a guide or PH started shooting quickly with me, and every time they have shot, I cannot fault them for doing so.

You also have to remember that the hunting shows often are given as payment in kind, and if no dead animal results, the PH/outfitter gets no free publicity...

On my first Cape Buffalo, Greeff and I stalked within 30-40 yds before he got nervous. I was using solids because a local dude had tolf me too....I shot him well and saw the dust kick up on the offside. He took off toward the Bots border and I whacked him again with no visible effect. John then put one in him with his WR .470....we were running after him----it was only a kilo to Bots.....he stopped facing away and we walked to within 5 yds of him...I put another in the boiler room and the stupid MoFo wheeled and mounted a half azz charge....John then hit him in the neck just as I was about to fire point blank at his head....he went down one long step from me!!! Wow! What a rush!
My second was shot with a SP but ran about 50 yds and got in ZIM tall grass. The Game scount found it from a termite mound and directed us....we could see only one black spot from 15 yds. We shouldered arms and advanced...John did not fire until I had jacked two rounds....it still maaged another 30 yds or so before expiring....another great rush! My third and best was full frontal around 30 yds. He dropped with one shot.
My last was with Chipman in Zambia, He let it be mine until it headed to really thick stuff with his three buddies---I had two in him but he was being a tuff ol bastard.
Had John and I and Peter and I talked about follow up shots before hand? You bet your sweet bippy!

The classic for me is the well videoed elephant charge which features on this forum somewhere and has had many views on You Tube. HunterJines and Buzz Carlton.

HJ with the classic DG double only gets in one shot with Buzz a fraction of a second later, HJ then gets in his second as the ele is collapsing. It is difficult to tell even in video slow mo if HJ's first shot is putting the ele down but when Buzz shoots, the ele is definitely going down and HJ's second is not needed.

Subsequent photos posted of the shot placement show HJ's and Buzz's first shots both together as classic frontal brain hits. HJ's second is high due to the ele collapsing.

I have posted this before in response to a debate on Double versus Bolt. Buzz with his bolt, shot, reloaded, ran to the side and shot the insurance round (surmising it was an insurance shot as there appeared to be another ele running off in the video so may only have been a chaser). HJ with his double only got in one shot before Buzz finalised it all. HJ fired his not required second round, then had an empty gun while running around to the side with Buzz and not getting a chance at an insurance shot (if it was needed).

Two things from this, firstly HJ's double was not required for a satisfactory ending, Buzz's bolt did everything required and still had reserve when it was all over.
Secondly and pertinent to this post, did Buzz have to shoot so quick, HJ is an experienced DG hunter, his first shot was a brain shot and he still had his second in reserve, a classic use of the double if he had of been given the chance.

Just my take on it as it it shown in the video.

eagle27,

Buzz made a good call and we are talking fractions of seconds here. A charge is a bit different to a PH taking a shot as the animal is going away.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
eagle27,

Buzz made a good call and we are talking fractions of seconds here. A charge is a bit different to a PH taking a shot as the animal is going away.

Yes but isn't that what hunting dangerous game is all about? It's not dangerous if it is running away.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
eagle27,

Buzz made a good call and we are talking fractions of seconds here. A charge is a bit different to a PH taking a shot as the animal is going away.

Yes but isn't that what hunting dangerous game is all about? It's not dangerous if it is running away.

Buzz did make a split second decision which on reflection was probably the right one. Most animals run after the first shot and there are many of us who would not want the PH to interfere with the final outcome.

This has to be a general rule and if the PH sees a bad shot on let us say elephant which could result in a lost animal then the PH would probably follow up and most PH's I know would have discussed this possible scenario with the hunter.

If you want danger then your PH should be able to supply bucket loads of it.