A warning.

While I was in Zambia I had the skinners carve 4 sjamboks for me from the backskin of my hippo. The sjamboks were listed on my CITES form along with the hippo skull and teeth. The prick inspector from Fish and Wildlife confiscated them today claiming that because they were carved they were a manufactured item and had to be on a separate CITES form using a different letter code. They were coded on the form with an H and apparently he says they have to be coded with a P, government bullshit, I guess.

Tammy from Coppersmith's asked if I would like to speak with the guy when he returned today and I said I did and when he got there he wouldn't speak to me directly but instead made me talk to him through her. I tried to explain to him that they were nothing more than pieces of hippo rawhide and he knew damn well they were from the same hippo that the skull and teeth came from but he wouldn't budge. I'd like to go down there and beat him senseless with one of them. I think that these assholes go out of their way to cause problems for hunters.

I guess I am probably screwed as far as my sjamboks. I am going to get the guy's name tomorrow and call his supervisor as well as call my congressman, Tom Price's office, to see if he can assist.

That seems unfair, but typical of the feds. Best of luck getting it resolved. If you can't get them out , you can perhaps buy some fake ones from Cold Steel Knives, I know its not the same as real ones from your hippo, but I 've heard the Cold Steel ones are nice.

In afrikaans we call a guy like that a DOOS name and shame him

quote:

I think that these assholes go out of their way to cause problems for hunters.

I guess it depends on who you get. I cleared my shipment in 2003. There was the skull and tusks from my Elephant along with buff and lion parts and warthog tusks.

I was worried that they would say that everything had to be cleaned because of the warthog tusks. The rules state that unmounted swine parts must be sent off to be cleaned by a swine approved taxidermist($$$$). Sometimes they claim that everything in the shipment must be "cleaned" due to possible cross contamination. Can you imagine what it would cost to have an elephant skull boiled state-side? Not to mention having to have my elephant tusks boiled for an hour!


I kept a real close eye on the F&W guy as he went through the crate. He picked up the warthog tusks and asked if they had been treated before they were shipped. I said "yes" and he placed them back in the crate and said that they would not need to be treated again.

My point is that these guys are like any law enforcement agent, they have the power to be nice guys or to be a real pain in your neck if they feel like it.

I urge you to go as far up the chain of command as you can. If not for your trophies, then for the lesson that this agent needs to be learn. If you can cause headaches to his boss you can bet he will think twice before getting "petty" again.

Jason

Sorry to hear that Andy. My trophies made it in late last week and I having some issues myself.....but not like you.
Best of luck.....of course, maybe that's the excuse you need to go get anyone on the Luangwa!

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

quote:

I urge you to go as far up the chain of command as you can. If not for your trophies, then for the lesson that this agent needs to be learn. If you can cause headaches to his boss you can bet he will think twice before getting "petty" again.

Jason,

I assure you that I fully intend to do as you suggest. I intend to be the biggest pain in the ass that these guys have ever encountered.

Gary,

What issues are you having? I hope nothing serious.

Andy

You ought to get the local law enforcement involved. Get tha a-holes name and file a complaint against him individually for theft of your trophy. also try to get your insurance involved. The more "investigators" are tied up, the better chances you have of getting the a-holes boss' attention. Congressman is a great idea. Don't forget your senators and local legislators as well. Write letters until they just give up, ie., give you your sjamboks.

Since they changed the regulations in September of 2007, anything made from your trophies over there is subject to the new regulations and must be identified differently from the trophies themselves. They had been considering doing this for quite some time before September of 2007, but finally got around to enforcing it and they are apparently enforcing it with gusto. You all should check with your taxidermist, trophy shipper, etc. before you find yourself in the same predicament. I'm sorry to hear about it. Trophy Queen (Carol Rutowski) who posts here could tell you more. She is one of the head honchos at Coppersmith and had been warning everyone about it.

Pancho,

With all due respect filing a complaint with local law enforcement against the Federal Officer for stealing your trophies is a) stupid and B) ain't ever going to happen...becuase he didn't steal them and no local cop would ever even take the report...and if someone is telling you they did it once before...they are either lying or found the dumbest local cop on the planet

Go down there have a cold steel sjambok and get one of your hippo sjmaboks and beat the guy senseless and ask him which one works best the original or the copy ???

Best of luck.

If I was you I would not be confrontational. They (wildife inspectors) have the power and the law on their side. Trying to contact him again and his supervisor is the best solution at this time. You have that right and option to speak to them in person. You may have to make an appointment to do so. I am not sure what airport your shipment came in on. Every inspector is different and the rules change constantly. As I understand it the inspector seized the hippo parts because they not coded properly on the import paperwork. I did not realize that hippo are cities listed. If that is the case then the people on the other side of the pond screwed up. Coppersmith fills out the USFWS import declaration paperwork. They are the ones that coded your import paperwork. They should know the rules when it comes to coding. I am only guessing, H means hunted and P means purchased. Each inspection office comes under the direction of Regional Special agent or Senior Agent in Charge. You might want to contact him or her and see what can be done. You can google and find out where this office is for your area. Explain your situation and maybe something can be done there. Being nice can get you a lot farther then being confrontational as some of these posts suggest.
I had a situation where my import paperwork at Atlanta was all screwed up. I talked with the inspector there and after a few phone calls and fax. I got it all corrected and the shipment was sent on after only two day delay. It was not the inspectors fault but the expeditors screw up. There was a cities listed animal in the shipment. Again it was not coded right on the import paperwork. I was nice about it and the inspector was very good about it and we got it corrected. Note cities paperwork from the exporting country was correct. It was import paperwork that was not coded correctly.

I can almost guarantee you that these inspectors hear of complaints all the time. They are used to it. It is like water off a ducks back. As long as they play by the rules and the law there is not much you can do. Work with them and not against them is my suggestion.


Just trying to help.

I hate to sound stupid but what is a sjamboks?

Elkfitter:

It is a short, stiff whip usually made of woven hippo hide.

Loved by the Afrikaaners feared by the natives!

Can be seen in newsclips in pre Apartheid days.

RCG

Thank you

Betcha the item itself touched-off some sort of angst!

However, I'd tread lightly and get this resolved quickly and quietly...

JW

quote:

Betcha the item itself touched-off some sort of angst!

Jeff

Not to be obtuse, but why would you think they would have a problem with that sjamboks?

Jason

Adrook,

Which USF&W office are you dealing with? I had significant problems with the Seattle office and my Hartimann Zebra last June. Had to send it and CITES form back to Namibia to have the number "1" put in block 14 of the form(going from memory here I think that is the correct block). Good luck.

Kirk

I hate to say it, but under the new regulations (which IMHO are stupid and over-reaching), the guy may simply be enforcing the law, albeit very strictly.

The answer will depend on whether the sjamboks are ultimately determined by USF&WS to be "utilitarian" items that have been "manufactured" in some way.

You will need to argue that they are not utilitarian or manufactured, but are merely hunting trophies. Good luck.

In general, I agree with the "tread softly" but persistently strategy voiced by most everyone who has replied. If that doesn't yield results, contacting your elected representative is the way to go.

I don't know what Congressman Price's stance is toward hunting but I will say that no government employee wants to hear that a Congressional Representative's office has taken an interest in an issue. That will often shake things up and result in a more rational decision, generally in your favor. This week, after a letter to my Congressman, a well-known, generally obstinate Federal Agency released a decision on an application that had taken eight months to that point in forty-eight hours.

It's definitely worth the price of a stamp or a telephone call.

I contacted Lynley Bishop of Coppersmith and asked her to post here and straighten this out. I don't know if she has ever posted on AR, but I told her that the regulations needed to be fully explained to everyone in order to avoid further issues with hunting trophy shipments. Once again, I believe that the agent is merely enforcing the new, albiet assinine, regulations. The only way that those will be changed will be by legislative pressure from a number of congressional leaders, not just one. So, once Lynley clarifies the regulations, then all of us need to contact our legislative people and demand an immediate change.

adrook,

I found that I had saved a copy of the detailed explanation of the consequences of the new regulations that was circulated by The Hunting Report earlier this year.

FYI, in case you may find it helpful, I have reproduced it below:

USFWS Seizing Trophy Shipments

Under New "Hunting Trophy" Definition

The first of many expected seizures by the US Fish & Wildlife Service of hunting trophies made into utilitarian items has occurred. On July 3, the Service seized a shipment of items made from a legally sport hunted rhino. What triggered the seizure has to do with the way the Service now defines a hunting trophy and how that definition conflicts with CITES requirements for some Appendix II animals, particularly rhino and probably elephant. If you are about to import trophies that you have had made into decorative or utilitarian items, contact your shipper immediately to ensure the paperwork is properly coded. If those utilitarian items are made from a rhino or elephant trophy, stop their shipment until you can get the import permits required.

You'll recall that John J. Jackson, III, of Conservation Force warned hunters in the October 2007 issue of the World Conservation Force Bulletin that the Service had redefined what it considers a "hunting trophy" and that it was unclear exactly how the Service would treat some trophy shipments based upon that definition. The Service's new definition of a "hunting trophy" excludes any "utilitarian" items made from an animal, such as jewelry, clothing, furniture and accessories like umbrella stands or ice buckets. The Service now requires that the import paperwork on all such items be coded "P" for personal instead of "H" for hunting trophies. The new rules were published in the Federal Register in August 2007 and went into effect September 24,2007. Shipments now arriving with incorrect paperwork may be returned or seized.

The rules are much more complicated when the items are made from a rhino or elephant. That's because the Service's new definition of a trophy conflicts with CITES requirements regarding these Appendix II species. Under CITES, white rhinoceros and some elephant are on Appendix II only as a "hunting trophy” and require a CITES export permit. So, any item made from a rhino or elephant must be considered a "hunting trophy," according to CITES, and that conflicts with the Service's definition of a hunting trophy.
This has created a Catch 22 for hunters who have personal items made from an Appendix II trophy. The Service demands specific coding for these "personal" items yet rejects such shipments based upon CITES’ requirement that they be "trophy" items. Further complicating things is that CITES lists all "non-trophy" trade of these species on Appendix I, which requires a US Fish & Wildlife import permit as well as a CITES export permit.

It is currently unknown whether this first seizure will lead to a court case challenging the Service's new requirements and definition of a trophy. However, the incident serves as a warning to other hunters having utilitarian items made from their trophies before importation to the US. Here's how to stay out of trouble:

--If you have utilitarian items made from non-CITES animals, be certain that the import paperwork on them is properly coded with a "P" for personal rather than "H" for a hunting trophy.

--Do not have any utilitarian items made from an Appendix I CITES animal or from a rhino or elephant, which are on Appendix II for trophies but remain on Appendix I for all other purposes.

--If you have already made items from an elephant or rhino, stop their shipment to the US. You probably need to get an import permit from the Service for these items. It is uncertain, however, whether the Service will issue them due to the conflict in definitions.

--Incorrect paperwork means your shipment could be seized and you could face charges and fines for an illegal importation due to the permit being invalid. The safest practice until this is sorted out is not to have any utilitarian taxidermy done outside the US. Have the items made after importation.

Thanks for the help guys.

I spoke with John Jackson at Conservation Force today and he told me that I have the dubious distinction of being the first hunter to have trophy items seized under the new rules that Mrlexma posted above. He said he would represent me for a reduced fee of $1,250 but I don't think I want to spend that kind of money to have a shot at getting 4 sjamboks back. He wants me to send my seizure letter and CITES permits and so forth to him for his records which I will do. Maybe this will help someone else avoid this kind of bullshit in the future.

adrook

Why don't you ask SCI for the money? It is a principle matter and let's face it - they do have the money. I would think this is very much part of their mandate?

Hey, Andy....man that sucks. My issues got sorted out...the FWS put Johnny's name on the permit instead of his company so it looked like a person to person....or so it was thought. Paul at Fauna and Flora helped me out and trophies made it fine.

Best of luck....freakin' government can't sort out the rules they have, much less adding new ones....bunch of dumb asses.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

quote:

Go down there have a cold steel sjambok and get one of your hippo sjmaboks and beat the guy senseless and ask him which one works best the original or the copy ???

I concur with others - call your Congressionals!

The Fish and Wildlife agent called me yesterday and I spoke with him regarding this. He was sort of pressuring me to sign the abandonment form that he is sending next week. He was telling me how I broke US Fish and Wildlife laws and I broke the international CITES laws, etc. That's a load of bullshit. My hippo was killed legally and the Zambian authorities put the wrong letter on their CITES form (that according to some arbitrary rule change Fish and Wildlife made last year) that's all. These guys are witless, bureaucratic jerks. Another example of how our government works for itself instead of us.

I'm now thinking of paying John Jackson the $1,250 to represent me just to make a point and be a pain in the ass to these assholes.

Go with John Jackson. Pressuring you to sign is a typical law enforcement tactic. They hope that you will cave in and not fight them, or they lie and threaten you with all kinds of shit, knowing that if the thing goes to trial that they will lose or will have a hard time proving the case. Many innocent people plea bargain because they are afraid, or can't afford to fight. John is a lawyer and is good at what he does and the only way that this thing is going to be overturned is to fight the bastards.

quote:

Originally posted by adrook:
A warning.

While I was in Zambia I had the skinners carve 4 sjamboks for me from the backskin of my hippo. The sjamboks were listed on my CITES form along with the hippo skull and teeth. The prick inspector from Fish and Wildlife confiscated them today claiming that because they were carved they were a manufactured item and had to be on a separate CITES form using a different letter code. They were coded on the form with an H and apparently he says they have to be coded with a P, government bullshit, I guess.

Tammy from Coppersmith's asked if I would like to speak with the guy when he returned today and I said I did and when he got there he wouldn't speak to me directly but instead made me talk to him through her. I tried to explain to him that they were nothing more than pieces of hippo rawhide and he knew damn well they were from the same hippo that the skull and teeth came from but he wouldn't budge. I'd like to go down there and beat him senseless with one of them. I think that these assholes go out of their way to cause problems for hunters.

I guess I am probably screwed as far as my sjamboks. I am going to get the guy's name tomorrow and call his supervisor as well as call my congressman, Tom Price's office, to see if he can assist.

Stick to your position, and keep on the politicians who are elected to represent you. In the end, if you don't give in, what's right will be revealed! DON'T GIVE UP!!!

Frankly, I think EVERYONE who posts regularly on this forum should pitch in $10-$20 for Jackson's fees. I'm in for $20 or more if need be. Anyone else willing to pony up and help out a fellow hunter when it is in EVERYONE'S interest to do so? Perhaps this deserves a new thread?

tendrams

I would contribute.

I had a major run in with these assholes before. It was expensive, frustrating and time consuming.

I would contribute also.

I'm good for $20 to help you fight this Andy! It annoys me to have someone from the Government strictly intrepret BS laws that have no value to the taxpaying populace!

We have been trying to educate all shipping agents to properly code the CITES permits correctly, because, unfortunately the Federal Regulations hold the importer liable for the accuracy of the documentation. None of us agree with this regulation, however, until the law is hopefully amended, we are at the mercy of current policy. I highly suggest that any hunter who plans to have CITES species processed abroad and imported into the U.S. as finished items, request copies of their CITES permits and other documents be sent to you and your customs broker for review prior to authorizing approval to export your trophies. Most all shipping agents and taxidermists overseas are doing very well issuing proper permits. However, there are still many gray areas such as this case where it would seem logical from our opinion that an item has not been "made-up" in a way that would preclude it from meeting the definition of a "trophy". If the items are "worked" then FWS considers the items to be converted into utilitarian items and therefore no longer considered "trophies" according to the new regulations. If the items are not coded properly, you will be liable and the local inspectors will follow the orders that have been handed down to them by their higher authorities. It is imperative to get all copies of documents and not just the CITES permit and review them carefully. If there is any question, confirmation can be received as to the proper coding and corrections can be made prior to shipping to the U.S. and seizures can be avoided.

Thanks Lynley for the update, and welcome to the AR forums! For those of you who don't know Lynley, she is the National Hunting Trophy Coordinator for Coppersmith Customs Brokers. Lynley, your advice and information is greatly appreciated.

Lynley,

Laura DuPlooy emailed copies of my CITES permits to Coppersmith's and asked if they were okay prior to shipping the crates. Is this something that Coppersmith's should have caught?

Thanks,
Andy

Hi Andy,
The doc's we were sent did not indicate that you had an item that was made into a diferent article under FWS's new definition. It was coded just as skins, so we were unaware that it was an item that fell under the new regulation.
Hope this helps. As always, please do not hesitate to call me to discuss further. Sorry I missed you when you were here to pickup your shipment.

How far do the terms "manufactured" and "utilitarian" go? I ask because I'm sitting here looking at a felt backed zebra rug. It has clearly been worked and it has utility. I had it done in Namibia and shipped so would I have a problem in the future doing the same thing?

pencil me in for some $$ help if you decide to fight this.

Rich
Buffalo Killer
Reno-Bound

Kevin,
The coding only applies to CITES animals, however, if your zebra were Hartmann's (which is CITES) and were made into a rug, then yes, the coding would have to be "P". If the skin were just tanned, then it would still be under the code of "H".