A few nights ago I dreamed I was hunting in Africa and came across an Elephant that looked like lions or something had got a hold of it but it had managed to get away, but it basically looked like walking dead. In the dream I was carrying a 338 Win Mag shooting 225 TSX's as I was not actually hunting elephants.

Yes it was only a dream but what would you do in this situation if money wasn't a problem and you were carrying the 338. Would you pay the trophy fee and put the elephant out of its misery? Let nature take its course? Or what?

Jarrod,

If you had to pay for it as you might dependent on the area you might want to leave it alone. If not as in a situation I encountered once I think the PH's rifle would be more appropriate than your 338. Of course if you had a few solids for your 338 and hit the brain you'd have a dead ele.

I guess to just answer your question I would not tackle an elephant with a 338 loaded the 225 TSX. There is just too much room for error.

Mark

PLEASE, stop eating spicy food before bedtime!

I can't imagine a situation where I would be in an elephant area hunting and not have some solids along in case of an emergency.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
PLEASE, stop eating spicy food before bedtime!

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Jarrod,

If you had to pay for it as you might dependent on the area you might want to leave it alone. If not as in a situation I encountered once I think the PH's rifle would be more appropriate than your 338. Of course if you had a few solids for your 338 and hit the brain you'd have a dead ele.

I guess to just answer your question I would not tackle an elephant with a 338 loaded the 225 TSX. There is just too much room for error.

Mark

My thoughts exactly. Never met a PH (at least in Tanz) that didn't carry a rifle that would kill an elephant.

A338 in the ear would do wonders. Make sure you load some of those 225 tsx'x backwards.

Mike

quote:

I can't imagine a situation where I would be in an elephant area hunting and not have some solids along in case of an emergency

I've not hunted in Africa but as 465 infers, 5 solids don't take up a lot of room.

I can't imagine being in elephant country with only a 338. Even in Namibia I like hunting with a 375. In Zimbabwe, they all started with a 4_ _ !

IIRC, in all African countries, a .338 for elephant would be illegal( although in some countries, the legal minimum is expressed in energy, not caliber). regardless of whether or not it is legal, it would do the job with a good solid. the bullet only has to reach the brain, not exit the skull...

There have been quite a number of elephant legally taken with a bow, some with a single shot in the engine room and one in particular, to jog the memory, of a frontal brain shot which caused quite a stir on this forum.

No reason therefore why a 338 cannot do the job without it having to be a brain shot - most elephant are killed with body shots anyway.

If someone paid for the trip and trophy fee and only allowed me a 338 with the 225 TSX bullets - I would certainly be willing to give it a try.
After all they have been killed with a lot less.

A side brain shot will do the trick.

I would not attempt a frontal brain shot without a solid.

Remember Bell writing that in his early days, when every "expert" was telling him where the brain was, he used up a great number of .303 rounds shooting into the domes on the top of the head, until he slipped one behind the shoulder, whereupon the ele charged off and expired.

He then took the opportunity to saw the skull open.

Those were 220 gr round nose solids, though.

Concession holder's problem and job, not mine.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
There have been quite a number of elephant legally taken with a bow, some with a single shot in the engine room and one in particular, to jog the memory, of a frontal brain shot which caused quite a stir on this forum.

No reason therefore why a 338 cannot do the job without it having to be a brain shot - most elephant are killed with body shots anyway.

There are any number of illegal, or permit weapons that have been used to kill elephant. I’m sure the .338 Win Mag was among them using bullets that are not ideal for the purpose as well.

That being said, unless it is a emergency with no other choice of weapon, it is simply not fair to the elephant to use a weapon that is not well suited to use on large and/or dangerous game!

The facts are that far more elephant are wounded and lost, or allowed to hurt or kill someone because of the use of inadequate weapons or poor shooting than any other reason. In the case of heart/lung shots on ele with a bow will surely kill the elephant but it also takes a long time to bleed out from an arrow, and a frontal brain shot is the best way to loose an elephant I can think of. The heart/lung gives the ele time to run a long distance before going down, or time to wipe the ground with the bowman! Even though the PH will have an adequate rifle, once wounded the elephant is much harder to put down short of a brain or spin shot.

In any case it is not the best idea anyone ever had where elephant are concerned, even in a dream!

I, for one, consider the use of weapons that are too small, or not well suited for other reasons to be a stunt! However you know what they say about OPINION and ORFACES everybody has one, and this is mine! Others may differ as is their right!

…………………………………………………………………………………………………

MacD37:

quote:

A few nights ago I dreamed I was hunting in Africa........In the dream I was carrying a 338 Win Mag shooting 225 TSX's as I was not actually hunting elephants.

Yes it was only a dream but what would you do in this situation if money wasn't a problem and you were carrying the 338. Would you pay the trophy fee and put the elephant out of its misery? Let nature take its course? Or what?

MacD37-

Exactly. Once again, I don't know why this conversation needs to occur? It could end up getting someone hurt and is illegal as well as unethical.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
The facts are that far more elephant are wounded and lost, or allowed to hurt or kill someone because of the use of inadequate weapons or poor shooting than any other reason.

Poor shooting[regardless of chambering] probably creates more undesirable situations than does precise shooting
with chamberings some folk deem inadequate.
..In certain well coached or seasoned hands, those seemingly inadequate chambering have been well proven to be quite capable & deadly.

People who cannot proficiently handle their magnums and big bores, are performing 'stunts' just as much as those not skilled in taking DG
with a compound bow or 7x57.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
PLEASE, stop eating spicy food before bedtime!

Maybe that's it

Kidding with my first post, but the elephant and any other animal deserves to be harvested with a humane instant kill. I am a firm believer in being proactive and not reactive. My African battery starts with my light rifle 375H&H 300gr softs and solids and my heavy rifle is a Famars double in 450#2 with 500gr softs and solids.

Mike

a 338 Win Mag is very capable cartridge and should have been legalized as minimum calibre long time ago

And Yes I have shot elephant with it, although admittedly it was AGS 275 gr Tungsten solids, wonderful stuff

PS the boys did kill elephant with 303BR and AK47 as well

Upon finding an animal suffering from terminal wounds I feel that it is inhumane not to do anything possible to bring about the inevitable conclusion as quickly as possible. Even if the weapon used is less than ideal, speeding the process is better than taking no action at all.

I must admit that my resolve might be sorely tested if I was facing a large trophy fee for acting upon my convictions.

I would bonk him over the head with a frying pan. You would hear the little birdies singing like in the cartoon, then he'd fall over dead.

I would not hesitate to use a 338 with the TSX on an Elephant in that situation. Wouldn't set out to hunt Elephant with that gun/combo, but it will work in a pinch.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

Poor shooting[regardless of chambering] probably creates more undesirable situations than does precise shooting
with chamberings some folk deem inadequate.

Absolutely true! If all clients were equally proficient with the rifle they are shooting there would still be more problems with inadequate rifles but fewer of them because far fewer people actually hunt dangerous game with inadequate and/or illegal rifles.

quote:

TRAX

..In certain well coached or seasoned hands, those seemingly inadequate chambering have been well proven to be quite capable & deadly.

People who cannot proficiently handle their magnums and big bores, are performing 'stunts' just as much as those not skilled in taking DG
with a compound bow or 7x57.

With seemingly inadequate chamberings used by well coached or seasoned hands on the big bores will still cause far less wounded and lost big dangerous animals, and far fewer people hurt or killed than the same level with an inadequate and/or illegal rifle. So as was the premise of my post is poor shooting is the most often cause of wounding of LARGE dangerous game, sometimes causing people to be hurt or killed. Even with both doing good shooting, with equal shot placement there will be less wounded with more a suitable rifle. When the humans are equal, the weapon makes the difference in favor of the more adequate firearm!

I have news for you most people who would use an inadequate rifle on elephant or buffalo are doing so because they more afraid of a proper rifle than they are the animal they are shooting, and in the back of their mind is “the PH will finish what I start if my rifle doesn’t do the trick. It is true that the folks who can’t shoot their big bore rifles are scared as well, more the animal than the big bore rifle.

In the final analysis the more adequate rifle is the better choice if you can shoot it, and if you can’t shoot well you certainly don’t want a rifle that is marginal, so it comes down to the shooter in both ends of the power range of rifles. If legal I personally would hunt all of the big four with a 338 Win Mag with proper bullets, but I certainly wouldn’t recommend it to anyone else, and I would not shoot an elephant within 100 yds with anything less than a perfect heart/lung shot, and would not attempt a brain shot at any distance with anything less that a .400 cal rifle in the 2000 fps range.

You are correct what ever rifle you choose you should be able to shoot it effectively!
................................................................ ...............

Could it be pulled off without a hitch? You bet.

Might it also go terribly wrong and get someone killed? Yes.

This is why Ruark wrote "Use Enough Gun" rather than "try and use just enough gun to get the job done without getting yourself killed".

Better a 375 with solids if you want to push the envelope.

For me, one of the .416s is the minimum.

+1.

I am not walking around in elephant territory with anything less than my 416.

IRCC,

Hunting Guide Phil Shoemaker and I believe Saeed,

have categorically stated that more game gets away wounded in Africa from people who are overgunned rather than from people who some would deemed as seemingly under-gunned.
PHs generally take care of situations where ameter hunter clients muff their shots with the magnum or BigBore that they are not proficient in using.

Even Harry Selby, based on his extensive empirical evidence drawn from many full seasons of PH duties in Africa,
reports in favor of medium bores over bigBores for ametuer hunters of DG.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

I have news for you most people who would use an inadequate rifle on elephant or buffalo are doing so because they more afraid of a proper rifle than they are the animal they are shooting, and in the back of their mind is “the PH will finish what I start if my rifle doesn’t do the trick. It is true that the folks who can’t shoot their big bore rifles are scared as well, more the animal than the big bore rifle.

And here some news for you,

Mr.Selby with 53 full seasons as a PH in Africa, ..has a view thats somewhat diametrically opposed to yours.

Its appears that the 'proper' rifle for ametuer DG hunter clients, was a medium bore that they could shoot effectively,
rather than a bigBore they could not.
Mr Selby expresses that use of medium bore by ametuer clients resulted in more proficient shooting of DG,
resulting in less incidences of PHs having to engage in the dangerous task of pursuit & recovery of wounded game.



Harry Selby on the .375H&H ...

some extracts...



...It had become customary on pre-war safaris for clients to hire a heavy double rifle from the safari company for elephant, rhino and buffalo, and the .375’s role had been largely for use on the larger plains game and lion. However, due to the advent of convenient and time-saving air travel, combined with the writings of people such as Hemingway, Ruark and O’Connor, increasing numbers of people decided to undertake an African safari, and many of them had minimal hunting experience and were not too familiar in the use of firearms either. It takes time and much practice to shoot a heavy double rifle well, and having read stories about the horrendous recoil attributed to the heavy English doubles, some of the new generation of clients were possibly more apprehensive of the rifles they were about to use, than they were of the animal on which they would be using them. This situation did not contribute to accurate shooting and resulted in many missed shots, wounded animals and “messy” followups. I personally saw an elephant run off after having been cleanly missed by both barrels at less than 40 yards...

..This time of transition served its purpose however, because as time went by, clients, encouraged in many cases by the professional hunter, began using the .375 H&H Mag. instead of the heavy doubles on the “big three.” The change proved most rewarding, as more accurate placement of bullets resulted in cleaner kills and less time wasted, not to mention the danger involved in following up on wounded animals. In this era, the .375 H&H Mag. was confirming its status as a very effective dangerous game cartridge.

Given the nod from the PH and the Parks Ranger, (if applicable) and a long for calibre round nosed solid of good construction, and good marksmanship you'd have yourself a dead elephant.

Bell did it often and with far lesser "artillery" than your .338.

Mr.Bell undeniably & repeatedly proved what is possible with a cartridge/bullet, that others would deem inadequate.
And its probably true that such a cartridge/bullet combo would indeed be inadequate
-for folk that dont have Bells rather exceptional nerve,skill and anatomical knowledge.

Bell only switched to 7x57 because his 6.5 ammo was unreliable, not on DG, but in quality, [split necks, etc]
He proficiently killed a rather large heap[many hundreds] of Ele and CapeBuff with his 6.5mm

People have made up unfounded stories of him choosing 7x57 because he wanted to reduce costs.

If he valued money so much, why would he risk loosing animals carrying such highly valuable ivory?
..just because he wanted to save a few bucks by using a 7x57 instead of more costly to feed bigBore?
- I find that really hard to believe.
If you look at the rather substantial amount $$ Bell made from his Ivory, I seriously doubt the cost of ammo would be a concern,
Id say he was more concerned about ensuring the animal was down so he could retrieve the 'white gold' from the skull.

And if he was such a scrouge into 'cheap' ammo,..why did he spend so much on purchasing six bespoke Rigby bolt rifles?

People have made up other nonsense stories that he only shot unriled elephants, which is simply not true!

He gained part of his reputation by his proven/witnessed ability to cleanly despatch elephant(s) that were charging him and his crew down, whilst carrying any one of his six Rigby 7x57 rifles.
In his career he managed to preserve his own life as well as the lives of his African helpers.

I wonder how many bigbore equipped ametuer DG hunters would loose their lives or receive serious injury,
if they didnt have a PH backing them Up?